WordWolf

Oh, for God's sake, this is a dead issue, I misunderstood something. Here it is, and if there's anything else to derail this thread on it, please pm me with it. I misunderstood and replied "And where is this "8 million strong" number being hallucinated from? twi claimed to have had 100,000 people- which meant MAYBE that many people EVER SIGNED UP FOR PFAL WORLDWIDE- and we all know some people never made it to Session 1, some people left before Session 12, and some people left right after Session 12. twi never had 50,000 people at any one time." HCW answered me: "I think Sky was referring 8 million in megachurches...." skyrider replied with a specific source, making it clear it meant megachurches "Megachurches..... *Steven Waldman, "Fastest Growing Religion=No Religion(New Religious Identification Survey)," beliefnet.com, March 9, 2009" So, I understood and explained. "I thought "They gotta be raking in more $ than twi ever did with 8 million strong." meant "twi had 8 million people once, these others have more" rather than "since they have 8 million people-more than twi ever had- they have to have more money" (which is what was meant.) So, 8 million is the mega-churches, not a twi number. Glad we cleared that up." The latter 2 comments were interpretations. NOBODY said "twi had 8 million people once, these people have more" and NOBODY said "since they have 8 million people-more than twi ever had- they have to have more money." However, the second one carries rhe MEANING of what I'd quoted at the top.

I thought "They gotta be raking in more $ than twi ever did with 8 million strong." meant "twi had 8 million people once, these others have more" rather than "since they have 8 million people-more than twi ever had- they have to have more money" (which is what was meant.) So, 8 million is the mega-churches, not a twi number. Glad we cleared that up. ===================== Some people have thought that a decent ballpark of twi membership was double the ROA attendance in any year. That makes sense to me- people who CAN go, DO go, but many can't get the time off of work or otherwise have responsibilities. (Before 1990, at least-afterwards I think it became mandatory and "punishable" -sanctions were used- if you missed the ROA.) For that matter, some people actually couldn't afford the trip. twi never did find a way to help people improve their salaries so they could tithe a larger amount- they preferred to squeeze people for higher percentages or increase the number of people. So, most leadership would show up, and much of the rank-and-file nationally. Maybe that made closer to 1/2 the membership than most in the 80s, and the 90s meant almost all remaining people were in attendance (when the numbers were much smaller.) At the highest, that would still put numbers under 50,000 even with the most generous guesstimates.

It was the PERCEPTION that churches AS A WHOLE were strict, stifling, legalistic, dry, etc- that made many of us easy targets for groups like twi. twi's ADVERTISING was that it was both free of legalism and it had answers the churches didn't-and couldn't- have. (It still claims that but they're obviously lies NOW.) Back in the 1970s, there were PLENTY of churches that had movement and freedom. It wasn't that ALL the young people just got up and left churches- some did things IN churches, and worshipped with less staleness and more fresh air. I saw examples in what was normally a dry, sterile RC Church, and the entire Pentecostal movement existed in complete opposition to the description you're giving. Just because, say, you never attended an "Assemblies of God" church or any other "Pentecostal" church didn't mean they weren't there. They existed and were growing while twi was growing- and they grow to this day. In fact, one church in my old neighborhood had to be rebuilt as a BIGGER church because there were too many members to meet comfortably where they were meeting at the time... not to mention ANOTHER Pentecostal church being built in the same neighborhood (as in "I can walk from one to the other.") There was an entire MOVEMENT called "charismatic" back in the 60s and 70s. That's what vpw READ ABOUT and decided to get in on. By the time he read any magazine articles, local people had been doing things for YEARS. It's just plain SAD to not be aware of it NOW. I mean, a few clicks of the mouse, and you can get documentation of this even if you never noticed it back then. No, the wildly divergent DOCTRINE was a big reason, and the wildly divergent PRACTICE was another... and the "thought control" stuff put it over the top. The idea that twi was called a cult solely because of its size is nothing more than ignoring any sign otherwise and still swallowing the "press releases" of twi. "Oh, the big churches object to us because we're taking people away from them...." Nonsense like that. The STUPID people called twi a cult because of different doctrine (soul sleep, annihilationism, the Trinity), and the SMART people called twi a cult because of its structure and control exerted over members (single authority lacking any accountability, indoctrination, etc.) twi always WAS a cult, but it was a cult with a strongly controlled center (what vpw WANTED) and much of the outer edges had little control (which is what vpw did NOT want but it supported the center and vpw was practical about his cult organization.) If twi had been OBVIOUSLY a cult from the first day, very few of us would have fallen for it. "In vain is the net set in sight of any bird." When outsider objected, they usually objected to the more stupid things to object to- debatable doctrine or things that sounded made up- instead of learning what the REAL things to object to were. That meant vpw was able to spin it to his advantage- "See? The people who claim I'm a fraud can only complain about lies or doctrinal things where they are in error and we have The Truth." And where is this "8 million strong" number being hallucinated from? twi claimed to have had 100,000 people- which meant MAYBE that many people EVER SIGNED UP FOR PFAL WORLDWIDE- and we all know some people never made it to Session 1, some people left before Session 12, and some people left right after Session 12. twi never had 50,000 people at any one time.

vpw played to his strengths. He was able to play this homespun "good old boy" who only knew Scripture because God taught him, and targeted people who talked and thought like that. When this didn't really inflate numbers, he went to Haight-Ashbury and recruited city kids. This didn't change the country focus- there were BANDS and a TELEVISION SHOW with country settings even though most of the new folks weren't into it. But vpw was into it and that's all twi needs to justify anything. Of course, vpw never WANTED city kids, probably because city kids are more likely to get more EDUCATION, and that runs the risk of seeing through his deceptions.

In churches nowadays, there ARE small numbers in groups IN the larger churches! Want to meet a few times a week for someone to teach from the Bible, pray, and socialize? Look around- lots more people are doing that in churches than in twi OR its splinters. I've sat in on a few. As to the first century church leaders, they'd never recognize twi. They were struggling to stay alive and ahead of people trying to imprison and/or kill them. They NEVER sat studying words and their meanings. They didn't schedule "witnessing" outings. They didn't run classes. They didn't sell books or magazines. They didn't have central authority- local areas were TRULY autonomous. They didn't charge for ANYTHING. Everything was freewill donations. They demonstrated power and authority every day-and that's why people were willing to join up with people that were being persecuted. twi more resembles the Pharisees struggling to silence the Christians.

It is "The Drumhead." Your description was almost completely off, however. The Klingon J'Dan joins the Enterprise in the officer exchange program. He turns out to be a spy, and is caught in the investigation following an explosion in Main Engineering. Retired Admiral Norah Satie (played by Jean Simmons) arrives to investigate, along with her old staff. She uses the Betazoid's empathic abilities to decide who to focus the investigation on, which Picard objects to. The investigation covers everyone who ever met J'Dan, including a medical technician named Simon Tarses. The explosion turns out to be an industrial accident-metal fatigue and not sabotage. Simon Tarses, however, is still being investigated. His Starfleet records show him as 1/4 Vulcan, but he's 1/4 ROMULAN and lied on his application. His career is over. (One of the novels later said he started over and made it through the Academy, becoming a medical Doctor.) There's nobody else guilty except J'Dan- but Admiral Satie is determined to find the conspiracy of traitors onboard the Enterprise. So, your turn!

"Villains who twirl their mustaches are easy to spot. Those who clothe themselves in good deeds are well-camouflaged." "What do you think?" "It's hard to tell. He is very closed... but...He is hiding something." "I've managed to acquire my former staff... My aide, Sabin Genestra, from Betazed, and my assistant, Nellen Tore, from Delb Two." "Are you... aware... of any other Romulan-Klingon connections that Starfleet Command might have encountered recently?" "I don't believe... what Starfleet Command knows or doesn't know is for me to reveal." "A review of the sensor logs indicates that every systems reading was well within normal parameters until fifty-two milliseconds before the explosion." "We haven't found anything that suggests there was a malfunction anywhere along the line." "This is J'Dan's. It is fitted with an optical reader...specially modified to read data from Starfleet isolinear chips.He can extract digital information from a computer... encode it in the form of amino-acid sequences, and transfer those sequences into a fluid in the syringe... Then he injects someone, perhaps even without their knowledge..." "Or perhaps with their knowledge..." "The information would be carried in their bloodstream in the form of inert proteins." "The body itself becomes a conveyor of top-secret files..." "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. And then, before you can blink an eye, suddenly it threatens to start all over again." "My father was a great man! His name stands for integrity and principle! You dirty his name when you speak it. He loved the Federation! But you, Captain, corrupt it! You undermine our very way of life! I will expose you for what you are!" "The blood of all Klingons has become water." "You've admitted your crime. Why lie now?" "Let's keep our perspective, gentlemen. Just because there was no sabotage doesn't mean there's not a conspiracy on this ship. We do have a confessed spy." "And he had confederates." "Do we know that for sure?" "Of course he did." Me, I was curious whose idea it was to have a member of KISS appear on a Star Trek show. ;)

Thanks-this is the first I'd heard of it. I'm not sure what to make of it, but I will watch it.

"Villains who twirl their mustaches are easy to spot. Those who clothe themselves in good deeds are well-camouflaged." "What do you think?" "It's hard to tell. He is very closed... but...He is hiding something." "I've managed to acquire my former staff... My aide, Sabin Genestra, from Betazed, and my assistant, Nellen Tore, from Delb Two." "Are you... aware... of any other Romulan-Klingon connections that Starfleet Command might have encountered recently?" "I don't believe... what Starfleet Command knows or doesn't know is for me to reveal." "A review of the sensor logs indicates that every systems reading was well within normal parameters until fifty-two milliseconds before the explosion." "We haven't found anything that suggests there was a malfunction anywhere along the line." "It is fitted with an optical reader...specially modified to read data from Starfleet isolinear chips.He can extract digital information from a computer... encode it in the form of amino-acid sequences, and transfer those sequences into a fluid in the syringe... Then he injects someone, perhaps even without their knowledge..." "Or perhaps with their knowledge..." "The information would be carried in their bloodstream in the form of inert proteins." "The body itself becomes a conveyor of top-secret files..." "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. And then, before you can blink an eye, suddenly it threatens to start all over again." "My father was a great man! His name stands for integrity and principle! You dirty his name when you speak it. He loved the Federation! But you, Captain, corrupt it! You undermine our very way of life! I will expose you for what you are!" You might be on the wrong track....

"Villains who twirl their mustaches are easy to spot. Those who clothe themselves in good deeds are well-camouflaged." "What do you think?" "It's hard to tell. He is very closed... but...He is hiding something." "I've managed to acquire my former staff... My aide, Sabin Genestra, from Betazed, and my assistant, Nellen Tore, from Delb Two." "Are you... aware... of any other Romulan-Klingon connections that Starfleet Command might have encountered recently?" "I don't believe... what Starfleet Command knows or doesn't know is for me to reveal." "A review of the sensor logs indicates that every systems reading was well within normal parameters until fifty-two milliseconds before the explosion." "We haven't found anything that suggests there was a malfunction anywhere along the line." "It is fitted with an optical reader...specially modified to read data from Starfleet isolinear chips.He can extract digital information from a computer... encode it in the form of amino-acid sequences, and transfer those sequences into a fluid in the syringe... Then he injects someone, perhaps even without their knowledge..." "Or perhaps with their knowledge..." "The information would be carried in their bloodstream in the form of inert proteins." "The body itself becomes a conveyor of top-secret files..."

Is this "The Ring"? It's the only movie I know of where watching a tape is dangerous. (Ok, spoofs of it do the same.) I saw a comic strip online where a guy is telling another guy that guys who watch this tape tend to get killed by it in a week. He then hits play. *tape*"Welcome to Martha Stewart Living." "This is going to kill me a lot faster than a week."

We discussed stages of twi history in some existing threads, of course. At one point, I attempted to set up a series of threads with eyewitness accounts from all the stages of twi. To date, I can't get an account from BEFORE vpw hijacked the hippies, but people spoke out on the others I posted. www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8329-eyewitnessestwi-from-1953-1966your-stories/ www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8336-eyewitnessestwi-from-1966-1975your-stories/ www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8380-eyewitnessestwi-1976your-stories/ www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8472-eyewitnesses1977-to-1980-your-stories/ www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8530-eyewitnesses1981-1984your-stories/ www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8699-eyewitnessestwi-1985your-stories/ www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8732-eyewitnessestwi-1986-1988your-stories/ www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8818-eyewitnesses-1989-1992-your-stories/ And this was an earlier attempt to get some thoughts down. www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/4495-rough-recollections-history-and-overview-of-twi/

BTW, I never explained this one which was answered before. The first quote is very quotable-and Picard is referring to the Enterprise-C. The second quote was the militant Picard-who will NEVER SURRENDER. This was a nice contrast. :) Mr Castillo was 2nd-in-command of the Enteprise-C. Captain Garret told him they were going back-in time. Worf discovered prune juice in this episode and considered it a warrior's drink. The book "The Klingon Way" pointed out the Klingons seem to have many bad associations with WATER. One insult is "The blood of Klingons has become water." Worf thinks swimming is "too much like bathing" and doesn't like to swim. With that in mind, Worf thinks prune juice is a fitting drink for a warrior- it is nothing like water! This is also the only episode where the Captain's log and stardate are replaced with "Military log" and "combat date", which were giveaways early on this was a different story. Ok, back to the current round....

"Villains who twirl their mustaches are easy to spot. Those who clothe themselves in good deeds are well-camouflaged." "What do you think?" "It's hard to tell. He is very closed... but...He is hiding something." "I've managed to acquire my former staff... My aide, Sabin Genestra, from Betazed, and my assistant, Nellen Tore, from Delb Two." "Are you... aware... of any other Romulan-Klingon connections that Starfleet Command might have encountered recently?" "I don't believe... what Starfleet Command knows or doesn't know is for me to reveal."

"Villains who twirl their mustaches are easy to spot. Those who clothe themselves in good deeds are well-camouflaged."

I agree with this post as stated. I have no doubts John has not seen this "premium on COMMITMENT." It's possible they're waiting to spring it on him later, but more likely they already dropped the "entry level" lower commitment stuff on him and he didn't see it. John-like myself- didn't see most of the commitment stuff when in twi. Unlike myself, I think he saw NONE of it, while I saw some but approached it differently. My thinking was "free enterprise", as even lcm said it once (but didn't mean it.) What that meant was, I was committed only to the degree that I hadn't seen anything better than twi, and would move to another group if and when they were better. I said that from the beginning and even before pfal. I maintained that position until the day I left- partly for that reason. So, when I saw a LITTLE of it, I dismissed it as isolated and not SYSTEMIC. That was later disproven, but not until I'd arrived at the GSC.

I think this was when Grand Negus Zek pretended to make Quark the new Grand Negus. I think Nog's missing homework was ON ETHICS- thus his comment. That's why I remember it at all.

"In fact it was a little bit frightening, But they fought with expert timing."

I narrowed it down to DS9. The second one sounds like Quark volunteering Rom's quarters. The first one seems vaguely familiar-I think Nog was giving excuses for not having homework-to Keiko??? I can't narrow it down past "Nog and Keiko were in this DS9 episode" yet.

John Travolta Pulp Fiction Uma Thurman

Once beneath the stars, the universe was ours. Love was all we knew, and all I knew was you. I wonder where you are, I wonder if you think about me Once upon a time, IN YOUR WILDEST DREAMS. It might have been "still remember" instead of "think about me". The Moody Blues had some good stuff on "Sur la Mer." At least this song and "I Know You're Out There Somewhere" should be considered mandatory listening for occasional listeners of soft rock.

There was an exchange and nobody wanted to add to that. www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/4698-the-l-e-a-d-accident-what-happened/page__st__240__p__117670#entry117670 "TWI's pervasive culture of secrecy, its claimed monopoly on truth, its reliance upon personalities (VPW first, later LCM and the list of Way celebrities), its alienation from society (the "world"), its hierarchy of initiations (through classes and programs), and many other behaviors follow the pattern. Why do you think the in-res Corps sang childrens' songs at every meal? Why were so many in-res Corps meetings held sitting on a floor, with little room to move? These are strategies for conditioning human behavior. They work, too." www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/4698-the-l-e-a-d-accident-what-happened/page__st__240__p__117678#entry117678 " quote:Originally posted by vickles: Wow Satori, that is the best explanation of cult I've seen yet. Sitting on the floor all the time was a strategy of mind control? " "I'll agree that's a great explanation. ==== I'll even try to answer your question. (Mind you, I could be completely off-base since I can't read Satori's mind.) children's songs, sitting on the floor..... I've been given to understand that there are adults out there in the USA that like to pretend they're little children in private. (I'm thinking they don't remember childhood very well.) Now, leaving aside discussions of what motivates someone to do this, I think we can agree, if a grown adult male wants to dress up as Little Lord Fauntelroy or Buster Brown in his living room, and ride a wooden stick "hobby-horse" around and pretend he's a little kid, well, whatevah. Just make sure you pull the shades/blinds/curtains closed first. On the other hand, Vickles, let's say some guy (husband, fiancee, steady boyfriend) says to you that he wants YOU to dress up like Punky Brewster or Pippi Longstocking or whatever and ride a hobby-horse around the living room. You would probably say "HAHAHAHAHAHA! No, wait-you were SERIOUS??" You'd back up a few feet, and say something was wrong. Why does this guy want to infantilize you? What sick purpose does he have to make you like a child? Well, guess what? If you were in the corpse, you sat thru something like this! Not to the same degree, and not for the same reasons, I hope, but you were infantilized. Your erstwhile "Father in da werd" kept calling you "kids", had you sing children's songs, and had you sit around while being taught, all to evoke childhood? Why? This evokes the responses of childhood- the reactions that the "adult" knows more than you, and you have to obey, the idea that you know nothing and have to be told what to do, that you have to "be a good boy/girl" and obey. Subtle, yes. Insidious, yes. Intentional? Well, could it possibly have been accidental? Think carefully before answering. Could they possibly have been deliberately training people not to be good LEADERS, but good FOLLOWERS instead? " www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/4698-the-l-e-a-d-accident-what-happened/page__st__260__p__117719#entry117719 "To me, to jump on the "cult experts'" train is to jump from one group's set of pat answers (twi's) to another (the so called "experts"), and it isn't much of a leap. That's why I call it the "anti-cult cult." These "experts" seem to work from the premise that every wrong thing done by every non-mainstream religious group is based on some evil, well-thought-out plan. Good grief, it sounds like there's a cult handbook that everyone who starts a controlling religious group buys from Amazon.com and then follows: I can see it now. "Okay, I'd like to start a cult. I want people to follow and obey me and give me all their money. What ever shall I do? Oh I know, I'll check the cult-leader's handbook!" (sound of pages turning) Step 1. Sit them on the floor. Step 2. Get them to sing some children's songs (which, by the way, we did not sing at every meal in residence, and we were in the Family Corps, with kids present who LIKED singing children's songs. This kind of exaggeration hinders "innies" from giving credence to the ACTUAL crap that went on in twi, IMO.) Step 3. Call them "kids" (never mind that you're old enough to be a grandfather to many of them and old enough to be a father to most). Step 4. "Love-bomb" them. Step 5. Have a personality. No cult will go far without someone with personality at the helm. Etc., etc." ================================ So, 2 people who said "yes", and 1 person who said "no", and that's as far as it ever got, AFAIK.

Like when a kid needed medication to balance his blood chemistry and calm his behavior (which worked soon after they started taking it) and "leadership" saying the way to calm the kid was to beat him with a stick if he didn't calm down, and threaten to abandon him in the woods if that didn't work? I prefer lcm's own account of how a man had a psychiatric episode right in the middle of vpw's teaching. Instead of doing anything to get him medical attention, vpw tried confronting him (as if the guy could even understand that), and then sent the guy home on a bus a few hours later. When the guy left, lcm worried about him. vpw insisted he forget about the guy and he'd arrive home sooner or later. A WEEK later, he arrived home, and was hardly the only one who left hq a wreck and was tossed on a bus. A POSTER here related how vpw did that to them, and they wandered away at the first connection and EVENTUALLY showed up somewhere. vpw considered people DISPOSABLE. ====================== "Dr and LCM always fought for people to stay in the Corps. There was an incident of a guy in the Corps who all of a sudden went "gooney-bird". He started to babble and not make sense. LCM worked hard with the guy to help him but he was incoherent. Dr, when he met him, confronted him by asking- 'Son, how come you're letting your mind get all scrambled?' The guy answered unintelligibly and Dr told him that it would be best for him just to pack his bags and go home. The guy understood that. He left. LCM spent many hours and many long distance phone calls trying to make sure the guy had gotten home from his bus ride home safely. Not being able to verify his location, he was concerned. Dr told him to move on. There's nothing you can do, he'll show up at home soon enough. A week later the guy did show up at home." www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8019-vp-and-me-in-wonderland/

Socks was neither lying nor prideful. Socks never said he had zero unbelief, and he readily posted he did when that came up. Socks never claimed he was, say, an expert astronaut, either, so it would not be fair if someone claimed he said he was. Socks pointed out the original post has problems with it, and sets up people with the opposing point of view as if ALL of them are idiots and NONE of them ever examined their beliefs. Disagreeing is neither "being prideful" nor anything like what twi did. So, either Socks, Geisha and myself agree with you, or the ONLY reason we disagree is because "pride is getting" in our way? That's called a "false dilemma." You're refusing to consider there might be plenty of other reasons- which is something that happened with the original post. The guy refuses to consider Christians may logically and intelligently consider things and be stronger in faith for them- or actually BECOME CHRISTIANS because of it. As Geisha pointed out, Lee Strobel set out to DISPROVE Christianity, and eventually became a Christian because of what he found. He BECAME a Christian because he didn't let his pride get in the way of changing his mind. No, that's Socks DISAGREEING and GIVING HIS OPINION. Don't mistake DISAGREEING for PRIDE. We all had enough of that in twi, where DISAGREEING was considered sinful and crimes against God- and still is. We've learned a lesson or two about that since then. Jesus confronting Peter is nothing like anything that happened here. Neither Peter-in that instance- was being prideful, nor was Socks in this instance. And Socks never said he had no "unbelief." We all have "some unbelief". All humans have "some unbelief" as well as some "belief". Billions of people believe the Eiffel Tower is in Paris but have never been there and seen it. Billions of people believe the pyramids are in Egypt but have never been in there and seen them. We don't fly into a panic when someone is 3 minutes late meeting us, phoning the hospitals to see if they are dead and in a morgue. Nobody here claimed to have no unbelief. Nobody here WOULD claim that, AFAIK. We all freely admit we're human beings and have some unbelief. We don't need someone to point it out and convince us of that. We all know that. We all also know objects dropped on Earth will fall towards the center of the Earth. We don't need someone to point THAT out and convince us of THAT. We all know that. Furthermore, the original post had nothing to do with us having any unbelief- it was someone claiming Christians have a sort of "BLIND faith" and don't believe for any logical reason, and if we used logic, we'd all become atheists or agnostics like whichever one he is.