WordWolf

There's much to be said for ACCOUNTABILITY. We should be able to show pride in our accomplishments, both in what we say and do. Supposedly, Will Rogers said we should live our lives so we wouldn't be ashamed to lend our family parrot to the town gossip. Viewers of the Simpsons know Ned Flanders. When Bart was living at the Flanders home for a time, he had a chance to learn all the day-to-day goings-on. His Dad then asked him for all the juicy gossip. Bart was stuck for ANYTHING to say, and the best he had was that Ned had some old paint cans in his garage. ACCOUNTABILITY isn't the same thing as this sort of HEIRARCHY. However, the healthiest part of religious organizations IS the accountability. vpw left his denomination because he wanted to do whatever he wanted with no repercussions, and he CLAIMED that he spent his entire first MONTH teaching on tithing when they supposedly told him he was free to teach on anything EXCEPT MONEY. Supposedly, they called him to account on that, he mouthed off at them, and then they left him alone. If there was ANY incident, I'm absolutely certain vpw's role was greatly magnified, and their role was greatly reduced in the story. It's just too silly. The idea IS that a new preacher needs to be watched, and all preachers are ultimately accountable if they begin doing things considered inappropriate (like lots of things vpw wanted to do.) Between the opposite extremes of "everyone does what is right in their own eyes" and "one obeys man rather than God" is a healthy balance where one's sense of right and wrong is subject to review and discussion. That can feel confining to people who just want to do whatever they wish- but that doesn't change that it's right.

The 5 crosses were from different monuments made in different CENTURIES, and ASSEMBLED later in a set of 5. They're not a MATCHING set when you look closer.

vpw wasn't the first of his kind and isn't the last, either- to go against the grain, but he's in good company. Jim Jones, Charles Manson, David Koresh, and the countless others that aren't so famous are right there with him. All of them told people they'd lead them to a closer knowledge of God- then used the people as merchandise, still telling them they were the conduit of The True God. Charlatans and fakes have been around for centuries, and will continue until Jesus Christ himself deals with them face-to-face.

Crowley told you right up front that he wanted the money, power and women. vpw wanted them too- but lied about all of it. vpw was more evil than Aleister Crowley.

There's a certain amount of irony that a man who CLAIMED to want to free people from religion and ritual claimed that to a bunch of anti-establishment hippies, recruited them, then began instilling his own brand of religion and ritual, which now is followed by people who still condemn the religions and rituals of others.

Hitchhiking is also ILLEGAL. You think people who claimed to want to follow the Bible would actually, you know, read it and follow the instructions.... 1 Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; That means Christians are supposed to follow the law. However, it's obvious they are not going to- the choice is follow the Bible and do what God said, or follow vpw practice and do what vpw said. Obviously, they would rather follow the word of a man when it contradicts God and they can't follow both.

Robin Williams Hamlet (Branagh version) Kenneth Branagh

Undercover Blues Dennis Quaid The Big Easy

I found a reference to "mathematical exactness and scientific precision" in the context of a sales program. www.marksmalley.com/book.html "One night during dinner (and a couple of glasses of wine) my friend was reliving his former glory. He began spilling his guts about some of the most guarded secrets in the publishing business. He told me how his ad sales executives used these formulas to generate astronomical advertising sales numbers. It was called the "Structured Sales Approach." As soon as our dinner ended I drove home and started scouring the Internet, periodicals, newspapers, magazines and anything I could get my hands that talked about "the formula." I began applying what little information my friend gave me and like magic the formulas began producing the same incredible results. I was selling advertising for a small print publisher at the time that specialized in technology. In 1999, I put it all together. This was due in part to an interview I found with the founder of this billion-dollar company and a prominent technology columnist. The founder discussed the formula in detail (without giving it a name) and he elaborated on why he felt it worked with a mathematical exactness and scientific precision." I also found it in reference to some teacher who taught in India back when vpw was there. The book "Glory pf Puttaparthi" contains the reference. "Baba will continue to influence my life since his message to me has mathematical exactness and scientific precision." This "Baba" is a title, like calling someone "Doctor" as if it's his name. So, what's "Glory of Puttaparthi" about? Puttaparthi is a location. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puttaparthi "Puttaparthi (Telugu: పుట్టపర్తి) (14°9.91′N 77°48.70′E) is a town situated in the Anantapur district of Andhra Pradesh, India. It was also the residence of the notable spiritual teacher Sathya Sai Baba. The town's main attraction is Baba's Prasanthi Nilayam ashram, the presence of which has given a huge boost to the local economy, in the form of hotels, lodges, restaurants and shops which are largely frequented by visitors to Prasanthi Nilayam. The common languages spoken in Puttaparthi are Telugu, Kannada, English and Hindi." So, that's a place where one could have gone, during vpw's India tour, and heard "Sathya Sai Baba" teach. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sathya_Sai_Baba "Śri Sathya Sai Baba (Telugu: సత్య సాయిబాబా born as Sathyanarayana Raju (23 November 1926 – 24 April 2011[4][5][6]) was an Indian guru, spiritual figure, mystic, philanthropist and educator.[7] He claimed to be the reincarnation of Sai Baba of Shirdi, considered a spiritual saint and a reputed miracle worker, who died in 1918 and whose teachings were an eclectic blend of Hindu and Muslim beliefs.[5][8][9][10][11][12][13] The materializations of vibhuti (holy ash) and other small objects such as rings, necklaces and watches by Sathya Sai Baba were a source of both fame and controversy; devotees considered them signs of divinity, while skeptics viewed them as simple conjuring tricks.[14] Photos of him are displayed in millions of homes and on the dashboards of cars, and lockets bearing his photo are worn by many as a symbol of good fortune.[15]" Go ahead and read his entire wikipedia page. It sounds like this guy scammed the Indian people into thinking he was a man of god, and vpw took notes and used many of the same techniques, some slightly adapted to a Western audience. ====================================== In other news, Leonard used a phrase a little similar in concept, "FOUNDATIONS (Co-authored by Rev. Evelyn Thiele-Leonard). Foundations is to the student of Holy Writ what a blueprint is to a construction engineer. It is a veritable slide-rule in the hands of the truth-seeker." A slide-rule is a mathematical tool for the engineer. Its use suggests mathematical exactness.

I'm fairly confident that at least SOME of vpw's stories were wildly exaggerated, and at least SOME of vpw's stories were completely invented- fantasies or wishes of what he WISHED had happened. When vpw began his first pastorate, he claimed he was told he could teach on anything he wanted EXCEPT MONEY, and then he spent the next 4 Sundays on money. At the end of 4 weeks, according to vpw, the elders confronted him (the location changed as to where), and he mouthed off a smart-aleck remark to them, after which they left and left him alone. Any group with actual elders would have CANNED any new pastor who was so insolent and reckless. So, I'm certain the whole thing was fiction. Do you think vpw FANTASIZED about inappropriate contact with those women, and later convinced himself his lies were true?

Yeah, any part of life not centered around twi must be dropped and ruined. The people must be obedient and must be beaten down until they obey. Must be why I was never REALLY a good fit in twi. Looking back, virtually all the attempts at verbal bullying I've ever had as an adult all came from people in twi. And my response was generally a flat look and being SUPREMELY unimpressed. Oh, they HATED that. One person, though, lightened up and talked like a normal human once I called him on it. Then again, he wasn't finished with his way corps "training" yet.

I know YOUR point was how they wanted us to be sentimental ONLY ABOUT TWI AND VPW, while dropping everything else in our lives-family, friends, memories... However, I wanted to point out "the emphasis placed on 'proper stewardship'" was NOTHING OF THE KIND- it was ALL about CHEAPNESS. I'm still in favor of getting the most for my dollar but sometimes that means you spend more to get better quality. Which is better stewardship- twi's way of getting the absolute cheapest for everything and having it work poorly and break down soon, or my way of getting the more durable and usable, and paying a bit more for it? Even if I pay 20% more, I don't have to spend it all over again a short time later because it broke down. GOOD STEWARDSHIP takes PLANNING. It includes asking what the differences are in quality and upkeep and asking if the difference warrants paying more or paying less. Ever look at your audiotapes from twi? They use INCREDIBLY cheap tapes, far lower than the street-level regulars. (I generally recopied to Chromium Oxide, which meant I could REPLAY a tape A LOT and had much better quality- but with theirs as source tapes I couldn't IMPROVE the quality, of course.) I've used standard ones as well. Gartmore used standard ones, and that made a big difference for the person actually USING THE TAPE. (Personally, I think that was a good idea and that their onsite library could have used CrO2 tapes for replay value, but that's me.) Yes, if twi had bought in bulk, the standard ones would have been a lot cheaper. However, they bought incredibly cheap ones in bulk, possibly buying out the stock nobody else wanted to use, and selling them to us. (twi level are 3 for a dollar, RETAIL. The regulars were retail for about $2 and the quality difference is tremendous.) vpw wanted a fancy log cabin, and didn't use GOOD STEWARDSHIP. He wanted something and never consulted how to do it well or even if it was a good idea. (It was a STUPID idea.) He had it done wastefully, and with the wrong materials, so it ROTTED and needed extensive repairs and upkeep. Then he turned around and lectured the others about good stewardship and how they needed to do things more cheaply and take care of what they had. This shouldn't be much of a surprise. We now know he was a hypocrite and didn't know much about actual business, or most of the things he put himself forth as an expert on.

The short answer is that the staff decided that the baby was the GSC and the bathwater was the politics subforum, so they dropped the politics and the site became MUCH less stressful for them. Someone else made up a forum JUST for politics. I don't have the URL.

Jon Lovitz Little Nicky Quentin Tarantino

Reminds me of the Orange Book's introduction. ""Introduction: the Abundant Life. Jesus' proclamation as recorded in John 10:10 is the foundational Scripture for this book. ...I am come that they [believers] might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. This verse literally changed my life. My wife and I began in the Christian ministry, plodding ahead with the things of God, but somehow we lacked an abundant life. Then one time I was especially alerted when I read from the Word of God that Jesus said He had come to give us life more abundant. I was startled into awareness. As I looked about me at communities where I had served and among the ministers with whom I had worked, the abundant life was frequently not evident. In contrast to these Christian people, I could see that the secular world of non-Christians were manifesting a more abundant life than were members of the Church. Thus I earnestly began to pursue the question: 'If Jesus Christ came that men and women might have a MORE ABUNDANT LIFE, then why is it that the Christian believers do not manifest even an ABUNDANT LIFE?' I believe most people would be thankful if they ever lived an abundant life; but The Word says Jesus Christ came that we might have life not just abundant, but more abundant. If His Word is not reliable here in John 10:10, how can we trust it anywhere else? But, on the other hand, if Jesus told the truth, if He meant what He said and said what He meant in this declaration, then surely there must be keys, signposts, to guide us to the understanding and the receiving of this life which is more than abundant. This book, POWER FOR ABUNDANT LIVING, is one way of showing interested people the abundany life which Jesus Christ lived and which He came to make available to believers as it is revealed in the Word of God. This is a book containing Biblical keys. The contents herein do not teach the Scriptures from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21; rather, it is designed to set before the reader the basic keys in the Word of God so that Genesis to Revelation will unfold and so that the abundant life which Jesus Christ came to make available will become evident to those who want to appropriate God's abundance to their lives. " =========== That is the ENTIRE introduction.

fnm, that was unnecessarily mean. Roy's good-hearted and never mean-spirited. I may disagree with him at times, but not with his intentions. Nobody here NEEDS to have a great ability to sound out words. I think most of us who disagree with you disagree with what you're saying but understand what you're saying. We just dissgree with it. One important purpose on the GSC is to expose the way ministry, to "cut it down." Another important purpose on the GSC is "how did we get there" and "how do people get there". I never saw you really open up a discussion on "why did you join in the first place" to discuss. Sometimes you have a point to make, but understand all points become part of a DISCUSSION. If I have a horrible incident with Leader A and someone else has a fantastic time with Leader A, we can talk about both without saying either person is wrong. Each person has different experiences, so the answers to "why did you join?" may be very different. Some people looked for family, a sense of belonging. Some wanted answers, some wanted other things. Those are all true answers, and are each separate discussions if we want them to be. Not everyone would agree to ONE answer, but we might all DISCUSS one answer as ONE answer and not ALL the answers. Remember that disagreeing is a good thing in a discussion, so long as it's handled well. I'd rather have interesting, civil disagreements than happy, smiling agreement on everything- we had enough of that lie in twi. Remember that people disagreeing with a point are not disagreeing with YOU, and people agreeing with a point are not agreeing with YOU. I've agreed with posters I've disliked before. If something's getting between you and God, I'd agree that's a bad thing. Revolving your life around any one thing should be watched carefully. As for threads "to fit in" About the Way, the threads aren't there because they're "made to fit in." The threads that are there are about the way in one form or another. Most discussions of doctrines go in Doctrinal, and discussions specifically about way doctrine that end up in About The Way do so because we discuss the PRACTICES and what that meant more than what's "true doctrine" on the thread. Just because a thread is LABELLED to be "About The Way" doesn't make it so. We've even had people show up to post advertisements-which they labelled as being on-topic. That didn't change the subjects. It's not sinful or harmful to "take pride" in something, but to "be prideful" can be a problem. If you do a good job, you can "take pride" in it and others can say "well done". You can be a fan of a sports team or even a person who's doing their best. Those aren't problems in and of themselves. As for the t-shirts, that wasn't a matter of being prideful as much as it was other things. Honestly, I thought it was hysterical and loved getting one. I don't see something wrong with someone having a sports team logo or something similar somewhere- and I don't follow sports. We don't WORSHIP or VENERATE the GSC just as we don't WORSHIP or VENERATE our families, but we care about our families and hopefully can "take a little pride" in them. That's a LOT different from twi making ugly statues of vpw for their auditorium or for people's homes. Two things a lot of us needed to be delivered from was putting twi first, and reverencing it, and putting the Bible to where we reverenced THAT rather than God Almighty. That was a hard pill to swallow for many of us. I like visiting the GSC all the time, but it's more of a hangout to me than an idol. It's not my CHURCH, it's my CORNER BAR where everybody knows my screen-name. ("NORM!") Perhaps it wasn't so for you, and if not, it's good for you to change that like you are. Exactly. Live your life, stay in touch of visit as you see fit, and when God decides the time is right, we'll meet in person and maybe hang out.

According to the Bible, it may be considered MANDATORY to have one "lazy day" out of every 7, which may be the point of the Sabbath. Bullinger claimed (in "Number in Scripture") that the human body is designed to operate slightly speeding up for 6 days and slowing considerably the 7th, thus it operates in a 7-day cycle. I don't know if there's any truth to EWB's claim at all. I certainly have no evidence SUPPORTING it.

GrouchoMarxJr: quote: ...And another thing that bugged the .... out of me while in residence, were their bait and switch tactics. When I signed up, I made a FOUR YEAR commitment. That was it! It was optional to take assignments upon graduation...at least, that's what they said in WRITING! A couple of months into the training, at Emporia, they tell us all that we have made a LIFETIME commitment to the corps!... and if we don't "understand THAT"...then we are "spiritually out to lunch." I sat there listening to this crap, muttering under my breath that I only committed for 4 years, getting angrier by the moment as everybody just sat there with a glazed look on their faces saying "yup, yup"...not me! I regret not packing my stuff up and splitting right then and there! ======================== Skyrider's reply to that quote: quote: Manipulation-mongers! They waited a couple months and then, slam-dunk our commitment level when we are behind CLOSED DOORS and surrounded by PEER PRESURE. What a bunch of low-life tactics! Was this tactic used in the zero corps? And, everyone left??? When the atrocities of the corps program are exposed...vpw was a major player in scamming people. He may have been on the stage a lot, but some of us know that vpw could easily hide in the shadows. ============================== Skyrider had also said quote: By the early 80s...the term cop out had gained legs...and had evolved to mean...any corps person or corps grad who quit taking assignments was a cop out. Twi changed the parameters. Now, it was a LIFETIME COMMITMENT to stand with twi. And, that labelling is still in effect to this day. ================================ Shazdancer said quote: I was committed to God long before I went into the Corps. I signed up for Recognized Family Corps because I wanted the in-depth knowledge that the Corps was supposedly being taught, before my husband and I were to join Staff. We were accepted into the Corps on that basis. I still have a Recognized Corps certificate to prove it. Long after our in-res year, a couple of Corps leaders tried to explain to me that I had made a lifetime commitment to the Corps program--to submit to evaluations, and go to any and go to any Corps meetings that were required. Silly me for requiring them to honor their agreement with me. I am just as committed to doing good and respecting God as I ever was, I just don't express it in the same way that I did while in TWI. ========================= igotout explained quote: what Skyrider is alluding to is that the Way Corps "commitment" we originally made became a "we own you and you WILL do what we say for the rest of your lives" commitment. And if you didn't like it then you were dropped from the Corps if not kicked out all together from TWI. That's pure BS. Originally back when larger groups of us were going into the Corps by the hundreds (I was in the 7th, I believe Sky was in the 9th) it was not implied that there would be this "dog soldier leash" around your life after you graduated. Only much later did this become specifically stated. Heck I remember LCM stating one evening at a Corps meeting in Emporia... "not all of you can become branch leaders. Many of you need to go out and get jobs and careers and go to college." Well some of us did. Later we were resented for it. Yes it was implied that once Corps always Corps. No prob. Think Marine Corps. You have had the training and served your country and now you serve in society as a better man for it. It was more promoted as another program like WOW or other such ministry commitments. A Wow Vet was not under this short leash and control, for example to move every three years and such. Yet he is still a Wow Vet. I still have one of the old Corps Vet tee shirts which I would bet they discontinued in latter years. A lifetime of Christiand service? No prob...Still doing the best I can. A lifetime of volunteer enslavement on a dog's leash? No way, Rosie! ========================= skyrider: Yeah......I said it THEN, and I'll say it AGAIN. When twi did their little corps promos....and sent out their literature....there was NO HINT of the corps program being a lifetime commitment to the way exaggerational. I did NOT make a "lifetime commitment" to serve twi doctrine"......NO WAY. Only behind closed doors, did twi have the sleazy tactics to try and put their hooks into us young corps. And, yeah....for years, I kept taking on assignments to appease the guilt. But in my heart, I knew my allegiance was to God Almighty. And, the further from hq....the BETTER my year. To avoid suck-up leaders and the bureaucratic cesspool of committee indulgence was NOT SOMETHING THAT APPEALED TO ME. I detested the lording over of God's heritage. I detested martinfail's scream-sessions. I detested the idolizing of the wierwille-owens-wierwille hierarchy. I detested the lcm-wannabes and the golf club gang. Sure, I could have left......but, I kept waiting to see if "the new classes" and "sanctifying of the household" would produce godly results. I knew too much about cgeer to want to follow his groupies and his mentality. NO THANKS. To me, the corps program was THE BEGINNING OF THE END. Yeah, it could have been a wonderful blessing....if godly agendas were backing it. But wierwille, in his lust for power formed and conformed THE CORPS PROGRAM INTO HIS IMAGE......an image of arrogance, and self-serving lust. Signing on the line to go corps......was ONE of the worst decisions of my life. I deeply regret it......STILL. skyrider

I don't think God wanted Joseph in slavery in Egypt NOR imprisoned in Egypt for crimes he never committed. I think God used the evil deeds of evil men and women to do good and save a lot of people. Genesis 50:20 King James Version (KJV) 20But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. Genesis 50:20 New American Standard Bible (NASB) 20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

I was wrong. Looks like there's 2 different incidents with 2 different women, neither of which we have the details on. One was Rosal1nd R1nker, one was EE H1gg1ns. ============================================== www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/7363-the-wayliving-in-wonderland/page__st__260__p__185522#entry185522 I found this in our threads. It's from SNT 214, 10/17/65, "Light Began to Dawn". vpw, as usual, was speaking. ======= "...and when we walked back through the buulding, he introduced me to this woman, Rosalind Rinker. We got acquainted just in a brief period of time and somehow or other, it jelled within my heart to say to her, "Well, why don't you come over to our house and spend a week?" And she said "Well, I'll just do it." " "So I said to her, "Would you like to come for a week or so with us?" And she said "Yes, I will." I said, "When will you come?" She said "I'll be there Saturday" or Sunday, I forget which. Lo and behold, here she came. You know what we did? When she came, I wanted her to speak to our church group, but she had no interest in that. She said, "I want to talk to you." And we sat down in that same office where I'd had this revelation from the Lord." "And she took me-that had been through all these colleges and seminaries and had almost my work for my doctor's degree finished-she just takes me and winds me around her finger with the knowledge of God's Word-I didn't know any of God's Word compared to her." "And she pinned me down, and she took me into the Word, ans showed me that it was the Word that counted and not what a theologian said or what a main said but 'what does the Word say?' And she pinned me down, and she took me into the Word, and showed me that it was the Word that counted and not what a theologian said or what a main said but 'what does the Word say?' And she kept backing me up against the wall- whole week long. Just, night after night, day after day, that's all she did. So, one evening, after everybody else had gone to bed, she and I went into the church and we knelt at the pulpit chairs up in front, and we prayed together, and that was the second great night of my life. When, during the course of that weekend, she told me that God was showing her that He had something very special for me to do, and that I should teach the Word." ==================================== ========= BTW, WordWolf: Quote Actually, I have a followup question for you....<BR>Take a woman this obsessed with vpw- called EVERY night, visited town EVERY weekend- add that she "rid him of his hang-ups" about the human body,and I ask you, WHAT happened between them when doors were shut? a la prochaine, on Sep 5 2005, 04:24 AM, said: WW, Yes, I wanted state that very thing you asked...but thought maybe I should let readers make their own conclusions. I find it very 'strange' that she stayed at the 'Y'. If she was such a dear friend,then why did she not stay with VP at his home??? Perhaps they wanted 'privacy'"

*cough*30 pieces of silver, not 13 pieces of silver*cough*

Reread "the way:living in wonderland." twi loaded his language with a lot of suggestive phrasing when describing his dealings with her, and then there was a gap in time for a few hours, immediately followed by vpw asking God for forgiveness and never said WHY. That's in HIS OWN WORDS.

Don't excuse vpw and company with the Great Depression. They spent lots of money when they wanted to. They just wanted EVERYONE ELSE to live at a low standard. The "Corps Chalet" was promised to the people who worked on it-they and their peers would get to use it. But it turned out nice and was given to lcm to use, no apologies given. vpw told people that CREMATION was a good way to be buried, then had arrangements to have himself buried in a fancier style. lcm learned to make sure he ate enough food in college if not sooner. (College students learn that, and any football coach will make sure his team isn't starving if he has to get on them to eat-as if that's ever an issue.) After a few years with vpw, lcm had learned to be so cheap that he sent of twi worker bees without any CHANCE at breakfast. (You're not getting anything out of ME that way-I need food or that's all I'm going to think about UNTIL I get food.) vpw had to moderate his words and try to explain the difference between "stingy" and "cheap"-as vpw saw it, one is good, the other is not. vpw lived in as fancy a style as he could siphon off of twi at any time. He told OTHER PEOPLE to do things, and when they weren't looking, he had a different standard for HIMSELF.

The goal for twi is for them to OWN you. To do that, they have to be the dominant force in your life. To do THAT, they can't let you have any freedom- freedom to think, freedom to live where you want, freedom to choose, freedom to do your own thing. When it comes to any holiday, people have expectations to DO things. twi can either short-circuit the holiday (schedule an event so you can't have Thanksgiving, which happened several years with an Advanced Class Special), or take over the holiday. In taking over the holiday, they leave what you wanted to do (at least in part), but RENAME it so they own it and your language isolates you from people outside twi, and they make small changes or additions here and there so eventually the holiday isn't quite the same one as the rest of the US experiences. That's why they renamed a few holidays. It's about CONTROL.

This was an important distinction to make. Yes, we gave them the power- they lied to us, and deceived us, and we gave it under false pretenses. But the deception was theirs, the deception was deliberate- so the guilt is theirs. We can take back our consent whenever we wish. Being deceived can affect when or even IF you wish it, however.