WordWolf

Part of the problem with discussions like this is the issue of PLAUSIBLE DENIABILITY. Horace Greeley has been remembered as having said "Go West, young man." I've read that he repeatedly tried to credit the correct source during his lifetime. When it comes to "things vpw authored", there's the things he put his name on, and the things he (rarely) credited correctly or cited correctly, and the things he left with NO name- and twi'ers were enculturated to make the obvious assumption that it meant HE wrote it because he didn't include a source. Sometimes he DID cite a source- then went on and failed to do so with the same writing at other times. This came up with the poem "about" the way corps which was taken from a college- supposedly with full atrribution, although I never heard it attributed when I was in. It was actually from Henry Van Dyke's "Spirit of the Everlasting Boy." http://www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/9207/ IV What constitutes a school? Not ancient halls and ivy-mantled towers, Where dull traditions rule With heavy hand youth's lightly springing powers; Not spacious pleasure courts, And lofty temples of athletic fame, Where devotees of sports Mistake a pastime for life's highest aim; Not fashion, nor renown Of wealthy patronage and rich estate; No, none of these can crown A school with light and make it truly great. But masters, strong and wise, Who teach because they love the teacher's task, And find their richest prize In eyes that open and in minds that ask;" This, of course, is neither the beginning nor the end of that poem, but it was all that vpw used, which he probably took from a school that used this part of the poem. I was told he cited his source, but I never heard it given when I heard the "poem" (partial poem) in twi. Does it count as plagiarized when he SOMETIMES gave the source? I think that depends on specifics. Someone claimed that vpw never claimed he wrote everything that he put his name and copyright on (which, legally, is saying he wrote it) because one of his books (TW:LiL) has an off-the-cuff comment buried over 100 pages in where he says that "nothing I do is original", and that this means he wasn't claiming to have authored all the books and classes he listed himself as the author of. Few of us would buy into such a detailed hallucination that would make this an acceptable line of "reasoning." However, between "he never plagiarized" and "every utterance of his mouth from childhood on was taken from someone else" is a lot of ground. Judging from eyewitness accounts of caches of books he used when teaching "his" stuff, and things that have been proven conclusively here and other websites, it seems clear that MUCH of vpw's time in twi if not MOST of his time in twi, vpw was teaching the work of other Christians- stitched together with flowing oratory and pontification- which was his actual course of study (homiletics/preaching, not "Bible languages" as he seemed to suggest). As such, we can often find surprising sources here and there among "his" material. Me, I'm an eclecticist. I believe there's value in drawing from the best of different sources. I find nothing wrong with that. The criminal act is in taking what you found from different sources and claiming you authored it rather than giving all the credit that is due.

The previous poem was credited to Guadalupe de Saavedra in 1973. ================= Another poem has been heard to have been credited to vpw, and its discussion is here:

You're welcome to start a new thread for that and name it appropriately so later arrivals can find it. I'll give you a headstart. A thread about a poem that vpw placed his name on as author, which was clearly plagiarized by him and others. (If you do a websearch now, you'll "find" that the "author" wasn't even ALIVE when vpw's put his name on it, and when at least one other form was extant with an author's name. I previously found it on websites discussing the loss of a loved one, without the "last line" used by vpw.

This being the dawn of the information age, it only takes a quick web-search to discover that there's LOTS of Christians who say this in a few forms (changing a word or 2 is STILL plagiarism when one is plagiarizing.) vpw was fond of using the works of others and making it sound AS IF he meant them. However, they were just repeated and PERFORMED, so the words were empty when he said them. vpw was NOT putting God first when he organized twi so that all activities turned a profit no matter how small. vpw was NOT putting God first when he used only the cheapest materials for most things, then spent on luxuries for himself. He wasn't putting second and himself third when he was smoking and drinking every day, and demanding others quit smoking, and expecting them to host him wherever he went (which they did and he never paid for any of his expenses that they shouldered- in fact, people often took up collections so he could be put up for free and leave with money in his hand.) vpw put HIMSELF first, and God and others were a FAR distant second, and tied for second. Actually, they were probably third, and "anything that delivers money and luxuries to me" was second.

chockfull:

The cadre of twi are just keeping the organization together and doing whatever they are legally required to do to manage that- while they ride the twi "gravy train" as long as they can. Rosa-lie wants to live off them until she dies, Donna as long as she can and so on. Sooner or later it won't be possible, and they will all have to go out and get real jobs. Since most of them have no real skills, that will really be the rude awakening. I wouldn't be surprised if one or more ended up committing suicide rather than face the same life the rest of us did. Life without cooks, housekeeping, etc,- imagine the horror!

The MAIN PAGE has been down for one site. The other pages may still be up. http://www.christianeducational.org/ceswhat.htm http://www.christianeducational.org/signupSOWER.htm And their other sites are still up. http://www.truthortradition.com

Are there splinters of twi? I would imagine that if someone left them, it would be because they no longer trust what has been taught...so why continue leftover teachings from twi? ==================== Obviously, since that isn't the case, those are not the right questions, which means they don't give us the answers that get us somewhere. People leave twi/ces/stfi for all sorts of reasons, including "you're kicked out" and "I want some of the money and adulation."

So it's been reported here, by US military veterans.

"She's into superstition, black cats and voodoo dolls. I feel a premonition that girl's gonna make me fall."

"Now when I was just a little boy standin' to my Daddy's knee, My Poppa said, 'Son don't let the man get you, do what he done to me' "

BINGO.

A quick online search shows that what you THINK may have been a bad dream after a spicy snack one night. I find NOTHING to suggest Leonard was either a rodeo clown or an Alcoholic. Please support such a claim if there IS support. A) When we trust people, despite warnings from God, we can ignore warning signs from God as well as our own instincts. Leonard was used to teaching ministers from all over, even strange ones. So he obvioualy gave vpw the benefit of the doubt and trusted him far more than he deserved. B) It's certainly possible that vpw knew he was in a "Red Light District", but it's equally possible that he just went for the cheapest hotel he could find in the area, and didn't find out why it was cheap. vpw had a history for being incredibly cheap whenever he actually had to pay for something, and generous whenever it was someone else paying for it. I know I don't know the Red Light District in ANY city, not even Manhattan (which used to be easy to spot.) I also know it's easy now to check and see if a hotel has a reputation online, but that's no guarantee now anyone will know it. The evidence supports either idea- vpw was too cheap to check, or vpw wanted a sleazy motel on purpose. I think it's a smaller jump that he was just very cheap. (Not that he was any less a pervert, but it takes work to find a "Red Light District" in a city and I don't think vpw had information resources to tell that back then.)

If twi didn't emphasize avoiding the Gospels over the Epistles, every member would know in their sleep Jesus' temptation to jump off a roof so that he could "prove God", and how Jesus Christ disapproved of such stunts. For all their supposed knowledge of Scripture, twi is irrelevant and outclassed by MANY Christian organizations extant.

In fairness, it does indeed SOUND LIKE an extra-Biblical term. It's not, but it DOES sound like it is. And if the question wasn't raised, we couldn't point out how it does appear in Scripture. --------------- Other subjects on that include whether someone even understands what they're objecting to OR approving of. My favorite criticism of SIT came while IN twi. Raf and I heard an audiotape some street preacher made. At one point, she tried to criticize SIT but didn't do so competently. (Anything can be criticized- correctly.) She pointed out that people claimed that there were Biblical accounts of "speaking in tongues." Her response? "They weren't speaking in tongues- they were speaking in LANGUAGES!" That just got a laugh from both of us. It's like saying someone misunderstood when giving a drink order because they were offered a BEVERAGE instead of a drink. The words are used synonymously. In Spanish, the word "lengua" means the physical tongue as well as the word "tongue" as a language, and the word "idioma" means "language" specifically, so the pattern is the same as in English. My personal opinion is that tongues is real, but misunderstood and thus misused in twi. twi made it a part of how to operate their magical believing, and made all its practitioners into OCCULTISTS, hoarding supposed hidden wisdom to perform magic to compel either God or reality to do what we want. If SIT has a spiritual reality, it's very different from that. A separate question is whether all things that are claimed to be "speaking in tongues" are anything alike. Is the one in the Bible in any way similar to how it's practiced in twi, or in a spiritualist meeting, or by some Voodoo houngan, or anyone else? If some are different than others, calling them the same thing will only confuse issues. It's like using the word "vampire" for goth kids with fangs, AND lifestylers with velvet and coffins, AND blood fetishists, AND cannibals, AND fictional peopls sparkling in sunlight, AND lawyers AND IRS agents. They really shouldn't be confused for each other.

"California Girls." Either David Lee Roth or Van Halen with DLR singing. ===================================== ===================================== "She's into superstition, black cats and voodoo dolls"

"Cross-Eyed Mary", by Jethro Tull.

Man, this is gonna be good! That was from "Superman 2." "Superman, thank God. I mean, GET HIM!" ==================================== ==================================== Next one. "Assimilate THIS!"

"I bought a toothbrush and some toothpaste, a flannel for my face, Pajamas, a hairbrush, new shoes and a case. I said to my reflection 'Let's get out of this place.' "

Apt time for this song.... 'cuz I'm THE TAX MAN..... The Beatles did this one. (I was humming this one to myself the other day.) ====================== Next song: "I bought a toothbrush and some toothpaste, a flannel for my face"

That's it. I'm thinking the last quote was the giveaway for you.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0277371/ When you have the actual name of a movie, you can look it up on Wikipedia or imdb. Keep in mind, however, that looking up a movie BEFORE we have the answer is cheating. Once it's named, we're all free to look up that movie. ====================================================== "Good teacher, he really seems to care....about WHAT, I have no idea." "Bring us a pitcher of beer every seven minutes until somebody passes out. And then bring one every ten minutes." "The football team at my high school, they were tough. After they sacked the quarterback, they went after his family."

Well, yes. It takes 2 people to keep a peace. It only takes one pinhead to ruin a discussion. But we can't blame others if we're looking for a fight. In twi, that was the default for a lot of people, and getting rid of it is healthy for everyone. Outside of twi, that's often the territory of people who don't need anything because they have Jesus. "Do you want some gum?" "I don't need gum-I have Jesus."

Not "Animal House."

"Good teacher, he really seems to care....about WHAT, I have no idea."