WordWolf

One of the Ferengi rules of Acquisition (of the Star Trek franchise) is "Never be afraid to mislabel a product." vpw labelled his program a program for training spiritual leaders. It was a program for training spiritual FOLLOWERS. People PAID for their entire time, enough to more than cover the costs and turn a profit per-person. Some of the time, they performed manual labor- and weren't credited back any money as any kind of salary or anything. They also didn't actually learn a marketable trade in the process, like electronics, auto repair, etc. Picking vegetables, killing chickens, painting houses and washing cars and stuff are not trades where anyone needs experience or training, they can be picked up on-the-fly, which is why the US often ends up with the desperate and underemployed doing some of them (migrant farmers.) vpw never went through any leadership training HIMSELF- and he couldn't teach what he didn't know and didn't dare crack his persona of the All-Knowing Leader, so he couldn't bring in outside talent to do it. So, the students COULDN'T learn leadership training any more than they could learn Special Forces training without Special Forces-trained soldiers to teach them. vpw never wanted leaders anyway-people who would stand up for others if needed, to stand up TO HIM if needed. He wanted fanatics who would jump off a cliff if he commanded it. His 2 most fanatically loyal followers were the 2 people he promoted as high as he could- lcm and cgeer. The screening process for the corps was a joke, a formality- "You can stay as long as your money holds!" and people's retentions were based on that and their willingness to OBEY LEADERSHIP. (lcm documented both.) vpw wanted the corps to turn a profit, but most importantly, he wanted FOLLOWERS, and the only real training he brought in was in SALES. So, followers and salesmen. And if they crashed and burned, at least he ran a profit on each one. It's possible a FEW people were refused for entry into his "elite" program, but from what I've heard, paying tuition was the big hurdle and the most incompetent and dangerous people were let in alongside the most compassionate and committed Christians. Naturally, he never phrased it as INCLUSIONARY, but that was the practice, while the rhetoric was that it was EXCLUSIONARY, and not that easy to pass the requirements, so don't try unless you've advanced.

If I've seen this movie, I'm going to be embarrassed. If not, I'm ok. Either way, I'm nowhere close to an answer and suspect I haven't seen it.

zzzzzzzzzzzzz........... Hm what? A guess? Oh, it's "Sleeper"....... ...zzzzzzz.....

"I always say, the way a man treats his car is how he treats himself." "Rule One: Never change the deal. Rule Two: No Names. Rule Three: Never open the package." "Monsieur Frank, people with this kind of firepower do not make mistakes about who they visit. Who would want you this dead?" "If you don't mind...I just conditioned the leather back there." "You gave me too much." "We need you to take us to Avignon." "The deal was this far and no further." "The deal is the deal." "Rule number one." "Rules are meant to be broken." "Not mine."

Ah, is this "Tangled"?

Are we going to Addis Abbaba, Mister Luthor? (end of that scene, with Luthor explaning about retrieving the meteorite and concealing it behind lead)

As I see it, those who stand before the Throne Judgement at the First Resurrection (aka the Resurrection of Life, the Better Resurrection) are not the Born-Again Christians. If the Pre-Trib or Mid-Trib position is correct, the Christians have all been gone, and were judged during the Tribulation events. (Under rather favorable conditions, even moreso than that of the First Resurrection.) They then return with Jesus at the end of Revelation 19, and are the ones who sat on thrones- with Jesus and who judged-with Jesus. (This makes sense if they are "forever with" their Lord from the moment of their gathering-together-unto-him onward into eternity.) Those who are judged, therefore, exclude the Born-Again Ones. So, that excludes Stephen, who was Born Again but who was martyred. It does NOT exclude John the Baptist (Baptizer), who WAS literally beheaded for the witness of Jesus but who was not born again. It would include all Old Testament prophets who testified of Jesus one way or another and were martyred for it. And it would include those who were martyred for Jesus during the Tribulation. I agree that the specific mechanism of martyrdom is irrelevant and is figurative here. I once talked about someone getting back to something as soon as was reasonable after dealing with something more urgent. Of that total stranger, I said something like the following: "They'll deal with that, then come home, decompress, and collapse. They'll sleep for about 12 hours, get up, shower, have their shredded wheat, THEN they'll take care of what you're stressing about, with several days to spare." Naturally, one person missed my point and said it sounded like I knew them very well since I ran through an itinerary. (Everybody else seemed to get my point.) As a matter of fact, I generally use the term "shredded wheat" for strangers eating breakfast-it's a reference to a line in a Marx Brothers movie. So, someone using "beheading" to refer to all forms of martyrdom makes perfect sense to me. This wasn't meant as a forensics textbook outlining methods of executions.

Ok, I guess we're all cool again. *passes out snow-cones and hot chocolate*

I don't know if, technically, they're listed as a non-profit. I know they're listed as a church. As such, they're not taxed.

We went through this for many pages. It's actually very simple and got repeated and reiterated many different ways. A claim of "No it's isn't" is not provable, so there's no easy way to close the discussion SOLELY from that. A claim of "Yes it is" is provable. Once it's proven, the "no it isn't" position automatically loses and the "Yes it is" position wins. All claims of "Yes it is" have all been from people either refusing to prove it (put up or shut up). Any claims of "No it isn't" don't have to be proven because that's not conclusive by itself.... ...but far more has been brought forth on this particular subject of "no it isn't" than "Yes it is". And that's coming from me- and I wanted the evidence to say "Yes it is" and close the case. With nothing actually doing that, and all the "Yes it is" stuff only OBFUSCATING the issues, I saw no reason-other than conviction- to say "Yes it is". We know how to produce fakes that appear identical in every way to what we were taught in twi. What we were taught in twi doesn't resemble the Biblical stuff in the ways we were taught it resembled it. Equating the supposed ability, completely at-will, anytime, anyplace, to produce miraculous tongues by the power of God (which is exactly what we were taught and you're claiming you do now) with performing a dangerous stunt in the hopes that God Almighty would protect you from your own foolishness is a false equivalency. They are not equal- except to the one who insists they are. But, the excuse that one can- completely at-will, anytime, anyplace, produce miraculous tongues by the power of God EXCEPT UNDER SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES is very convenient. Can we do it alone? Sure. Can we do it among family? Sure. Can we do it among friends? Sure. Can we do it among fellow Christians who are strangers? Sure. Can we do it among fellow Christians who are taping the teaching and the tongues with them? Sure. Can we then take that tape and present it to language specialists for analysis? NO- that's tempting God, so God would have refused to produce a real tongue in that instance so that the specialist would have suddenly had a God-produced fake to study which nonetheless sounded just like the real things to all the people in the room when it was taken. Can we do it walking down the street? Sure. Can we do it walking into the office of a scientist? Sure. Can we do it walking into his examination room as he preps his recording devices? Sure. Can we do it when he turns his recording devices on? NO- that's tempting God. We can keep speaking, but, despite sounding just like the previous stuff, it suddenly won't be a language, and the scientist won't be able to get any conclusive data off of it. That's all very, very CONVENIENT, and very, very SPECIFIC. It can be done under every conceivable circumstance- with the sole exceptions being "anything which would prove they were actual languages"- when they suddenly diverge from "unknown language" to "gibberish" without sounding any different to the veteran listener who's heard it for years. In short, the only way you know the "prove to not be a language" stuff is any different at all from the "it's a language but I can't prove it" stuff is a LEAP OF FAITH that it is different, and your own claim that it is. The much simpler possibility is that it's exactly the same in each case, and it wasn't a language when the machines were on, and it wasn't a language when the machines were off, and that's why it sounds exactly the same under both conditions- it is exactly the same. Honestly- going to that degree to refuse to prove your case really just makes it sound like you're afraid of the results- that you know what they would be and don't want to see the results. The entire crux of your position, which you've stated before, is that to question whether we were taught the real thing from Pentecost- the miraculous tongues in their languages of the wonderful works of God as opposed to possibly having been scammed by someone who has been proven to have scammed and lied through his professional career on related subjects AND ON THIS VERY THING- to question whether he scammed us is the same as questioning whether there is a God, whether He has a Son, The Lord Jesus Christ, whether we can experience The Holy Spirit in our lives and look to a Hope, and so on. So, to question whether a known liar and scammer lied to us and scammed us about this specific thing like he lied to us and scammed us on many other things, is to question the existence of GOD ALMIGHTY. The thing is, most Christians of deep convictions throughout the present and past believe there is a God, Jesus is the Christ, and so on, but don't depend on doctrines of scammers to support them. Can someone feel comfort performing "free vocalization"? Sure. And they can feel comfort on an analyst's couch, or in a hot bath, or in a nap. Doesn't mean there's anything supernatural about any of them.

Back in twi, Ralph D did a teaching for adults, called "Teen Outreach", about how to reach the teens. It was very sensible. One comment he made was tongue-in-cheek, and illustrates your point nicely. "You know, when I was 18, I was amazed at how stupid my parents were. Then, when I got to be about 25, I was amazed at how much they had learned in the past few years." I myself remember looking back at around age 25, and feeling amazed I got anything done around age 18 considering how foolish I was by comparison. At the time, I thought the difference was primarily experience. I didn't suspect there were biological reasons also.

"How do solve a problem like Maria?"

"I always say, the way a man treats his car is how he treats himself." "Rule One: You can not change the deal. Rule Two: No Names. Rule Three: Don't open the package." "Monsieur Frank, people with this kind of firepower do not make mistakes about who they visit. Who would want you this dead?"

For those who missed over 100 pages of discussion on the subject, Raf's pointing out that The Amazing Randi is prepared to fill out a check for the successful presentation of something genuinely supernatural that can be done on command and verified "scientifically" (by isolating the variables). IF the modern SIT really IS supernatural in anybody's case, and they really CAN demonstrate the ability to speak a language they don't know, then that would be demonstrably supernatural. That person could get a lot of money to put to godly things, silence a vocal skeptic- AND get him to make a public acknowledgement of the power of God. Modern SIT is supposed to be something that is genuinely supernatural and done on command, so it's perfect for this instance- if it's really the Biblical SIT and not a mundane fake we were told was the original supernatural thing.

The thing is, Allan, I "knew" I did also. But I based my conclusions- and my convictions- on FAULTY DATA. When it came time to shine a light on the whole thing, it just plain collapsed. Our last thread on that is here: Free Vocalization The previous thread, which meandered a lot, is here: SIT, TIP, Prophecy and Confession

No, but I imagine you realized that from the current quotes.

"I always say, the way a man treats his car is how he treats himself." "Rule One: You can not change the deal. Rule Two: No Names. Rule Three: Don't open the package."

Unless you're a big fan of the movie, you might not remember this dialogue about Marvin. The other stuff- walking the earth, the Royale With Cheese, the supposed Ezekiel quote, the country "What"and if it speaks English, the Big Kahuna-burger, and getting Medieval, those are a LOT more recognizable. Obviously, this was "Pulp Fiction". I didn't get it from the first quote-the one above, but the one after. BTW, I can't speak for France, but I once got an email from someone in a country on the metric system. They advised me that the local McDonalds franchises were now selling Quarter Pounders with Cheese despite them not using pounds to measure the beef. (They also sell Angus burgers now but they're not advertised as 1/3 pounders, just as Angus.)

Jennifer Jason Leigh Fast Times at Ridgemont High Judge Reinhold

It sounds like some of both, but mainly it's evidence of the level of vpw- worship and pfal-worship at the time. Those of us who got in after vpw's death or during the fog years really never got a close look at that, except through the eyes of those where WERE in at the time. It was commonly believed that vpw would be alive to see the return of Jesus Christ, and there were much more ridiculous claims I don't want to get into now. (It's enough that they existed and were truly ridiculous.) So, when twi issued edicts, often fanatics filled in what they were told with outright fabrications that sounded far nicer than the hidden reality. When vpw hand-picked lcm against EVERYONE'S advice, we were told, at different times, that it was by direct revelation, or that it was actually done by a vote like how Matthias was voted to replace Judas Iscariot. (I was told both, face-to-face, by different people at different times, and the people who said both believed what they were saying.) Meanwhile, someone who asked vpw at the time was told-BY vpw- that it was because lcm always did whatever he said, without question. Looking at lcm's own accounts, it's clear vpw had this in mind for several years before it happened. So, when they were stupid enough to think people would pay $200, and the pfal enrollments collapsed-and with it, new regulars and their donations- twi reversed gears and realized they stood more to gain by running more people through pfal and retaining them at least a few months than by getting fewer people and retaining them for at least a few months. twi's main income has always been its REGULARS- and low pfal tuition paved the way for more regulars. twi's in the religion BUSINESS- and business generally follows the 80/20 rule and centers around repeat business with the regulars. So, when the price dropped, the people were either never told why and made up their own reasons, or were told the stupidest reasons and believed them. Me, I think that, as news traveled downhill, the reasons began being invented and people bought them, perhaps being passed on at the Limb level, perhaps higher or lower. So, a motivation that is stupid but makes vpw sound like Mother Teresa of Calcutta? Naturally that caught on, and who was actually going to say "Hey, wait a minute", at least out loud?

Good guess, but absolutely not.

I agree with that interpretation of what happened, without qualification. I disagree here, and I shall explain the difference between our opinions. Yes, it was 100% fraud. Yes, having a roomful of people there all doing it was highly conducive to peer pressure, groupthink, etc. I would expect SOME graduates might have freely faked it at the time, knowing they were faking it, and either thought they were the only person in the room who faked it, or even thought it was a roomful of fraud but kept silent for their own reasons (peer pressure, etc.) I would expect MOST graduates would have fallen into the same boat as I did. We were convinced going in that this class was THE ultimate in learning Big Holy Stuff. With those expectations inculcated to every new student, Sessions 9-11 set the stage, outlining the subject, then making it sound like REAL speaking in tongues was expected, available, easy, and TAUGHT IN THAT CLASS. Sessions 11 and 12 impart a heavy emotional trip on the naive student. ("Don't you want to speak the wonderful works of God?") In the process was sprinkled in the actual steps of the physical procedure. We heard grads SIT each session so we knew what it was "supposed" to sound like. We were told to vocalize syllables resembling speech and that God Almighty would organize the syllables into something He wants. So, when The Moment came, either easily or haltingly, we spoke, and in our naivete, we legitimately were fooled into thinking it was something godly, and not something fraudulent. We were fooled. We were mistaken. But we did NOT think, at the time, we were faking it. We thought something miraculous had happened. I think you're underestimating the power of persuasion there for many or most of us. But, yes, even when the entire process was gutted and the organs displayed, there's people who "refuse to consider" that the whole thing was a fraud. Now THAT's as fine an example of persuasion and groupthink as I can find. Decades later, even CONSIDERING there was false teaching isn't even allowed.

A new kid must find a guy to date the meanest girl in school, the older sister of the girl he has a crush on, who cannot date until her older sister does. After graduation, he ends up working alongside a Japanese secret-service ninja force that must find and stop the true culprit of a series of spacejackings before nuclear war is provoked.

"I always say, the way a man treats his car is how he treats himself."

It was profitable, too. The US public wasn't stupid enough to pay $200 for it that year- as the WOWs discovered- but all the other prices made a tidy ptofit. Even at $40, the cost of the mandatory materials was a LOT less than that. twi provided tapes, and all other expenses were borne locally. Then many people stayed and paid 10% of their salary, and bought lots of stuff from twi, all priced retail. That's a tidy profit for a non-profit organization that pays no tax and handles all stages of production in-house.