WordWolf

There was another episode? Give us at least 24 hours. Apparently Agents of SHIELD aired one, also, so that's something else to add to my dance card after the Flash episode.

"Stir Crazy"?

Yes. If it hadn't been it, it should have been it. :)

No? Uh, "A Piece of the Action?"

Oh! "I'm Gonna Git You, Sucka."

Ok, having seen what it says in sufficient context to understand it, and taking as a given this was all factually accurate, let's summarize. The people saw Jesus perform another miracle. Some people were angry and told the Pharisses that Jesus was performing miracles. The Pharisees & friends were concerned that Jesus performing miracles would lead to Jesus becoming popular and a big deal, and that would lead to the Romans cracking down on what they currently looked at as a quiet, quaint, long-standing religion. No concern that all the miracles they couldn't produce being produced by someone else meant something concerning God Almighty, just political and social considerations. (I've seen people, and that sounds authentic to me-people are stupid, short-sighted, narrow-minded, and only hear what they expect to hear, much of the time.) The exception was the High Priest, Caiaphas. The prophecy he delivered was one that said “You know nothing at all! You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.” (I agree with him on both counts.) So, the prophecy was true, and could be taken to mean more than one thing. The actual meaning? Jesus dying for their entire nation (etc.) The meaning they took? It's better for Jesus to die than their nation to die. The result was their deliberate plan to murder Jesus being worked up, finalized, and executed. What was the question again? ("Should the Sanhedrin have infered from the prophecy that God was directing them to do the deed?") There's several possible directions to go with this, I'll try to answer them all. Did God Almighty tell them to murder Jesus? No-it was a statement of action and consequences, albeit only partly-informative. It didn't include pages of context that might have made them reconsider, MAYBE. Did the Sanhedrin think they were being directed to kill Jesus? Obviously-the result of that was them planning to do that very thing. Did the Sanhedrin think they were being directed BY GOD ALMIGHTY to kill Jesus? I seriously doubt it. This Sanhedrin's religious concerns were confined, at most, to the ceremonial, the traditional, and the sociopolitical, and excluded the sacred. (Big miracles are virtually absent for a long time, then in the space of a year, we see 2 prophets suddenly rise up and at least the latter performs big miracles. They didn't discuss the existence of miracles regardless of the eyewitnesses- they discussed the ramifications of people following someone who could perform the miracles but not the miracles themselves. I would expect they only saw the "high priest" as a religious counselor who expressed the will of religious people, and relaying their POV to the Sanhedrin. SHOULD the Sanhedrin think that they were being directed BY GOD ALMIGHTY to kill Jesus? That's actually the toughest question on the list, and the most open to interpretation and opinion. IF they thought it was a real message from God (and that such messages existed), then we go back to what, exactly, is being said. Based on that, I still agree they were know-nothings. But if they had been know-somethings, they STILL shouldn't have thought it was an official prophecy because it wasn't on official God Almighty letterhead. ("Hear the word of the Lord: " and so on.) It was phrased-deliberately I say- so that even if they HAD 2 brain cells to rub together between them, that they still wouldn't think there was a full-blown prophecy being spoken at that moment.

KJV John 11:47-53 47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. 48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. 49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, 50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. 51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; 52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. 53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death. ======================================== NASB John 11:47-53 47 Therefore the chief priests and the Pharisees convened a council, and were saying, “What are we doing? For this man is performing many [l]signs. 48 If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.” 49 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all, 50 nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish.” 51 Now he did not say this [m]on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but in order that He might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad. 53 So from that day on they planned together to kill Him. ======================================== NIV John 11:47-53 47 Then the chief priests and the Pharisees called a meeting of the Sanhedrin. “What are we accomplishing?” they asked. “Here is this man performing many signs. 48 If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our temple and our nation.” 49 Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, “You know nothing at all! 50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.” 51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, 52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one. 53 So from that day on they plotted to take his life.

I think the "he was a mirage in the other episode" thing was cheating. (The other episode should have looked MUCH different.) She thinks the "we told the audience and now we're retconning almost all the episode so now the audience knows but not the character" thing was cheating. (Lazy writing, a little like a deus ex machina, in a way.) We knew there were 2 time travelers in the beginning. Actually, Mrs Wolf worked it out in the beginning with me keeping silent except for answering very specific questions. I consider time travel not to be an issue, providing we complete the loop. I think you thought I was saying the reveal on Wells was a retcon. No, we knew he was from the future. We weren't sure if he was the present Wells who had traveled in time more than once and was faking being his younger self, or someone imitating his ancestor after planning it and altering his appearance, then traveling back. (In the comic, Eobard Thawne, actually, DID alter his appearance and acquire powers deliberately before his first time trip. I won't post why in case, somehow, that's the reason he did it in the show.)

Mel Brooks Anthony Hopkins Sir Lawrence Olivier

"Well, yes, ma'am, I do... I mean, I got everything I need right here with me. I got air in my lungs, a few blank sheets of paper. I mean, I love waking up in the morning not knowing what's gonna happen or, who I'm gonna meet, where I'm gonna wind up. Just the other night I was sleeping under a bridge and now here I am on the grandest ship in the world having champagne with you fine people. I figure life's a gift and I don't intend on wasting it. You don't know what hand you're gonna get dealt next. You learn to take life as it comes at you... to make each day count."

"Not While I'm Around" "Pretty Women" "Pirelli's Miracle Elixir" "No Place Like London"

Then I'm down to "Tales from the Darkside." Was that it?

That leaves 2 others, so I'll go with the more obvious "Creepshow."

Bruce Campbell, I think.

I'm curious about #3. 2 should be "Jack of All Trades." 1 is definitely "Cleopatra 2525" (with the theme song rewriting the previous '2525' song.) I think that tanked early, but how was "exotic dancer adventurer" a hard sell to the public?

"Do the Right Thing"?

I get suspicious of retcons because they are often cheats, and often bad ones. The reveal on Wells was a surprise in very few ways, for us. A) His legal name-I had dismissed the idea months ago and forgotten about it. B) Who he tried to kill C) the mirage thing, which I think is a cheap trick for the writers based on how they used it earlier in the series. That's interesting, but we didn't think it was noteworthy-ish. Ok, I knew the character was one from the first episode. We did NOT see the name connection, and Mrs Wolf's chagrined she missed it. She also said she considered the "reveal then retcon" technique to be lazy writing. "We want to tell the public some things, so we'll have everyone learn, then everyone forgets." She thinks that was a cop-out on revealing secrets to the viewing audience.

We didn't like how the subplots all suddenly piled up- and how we expect most or all to be hand-waved away in the next episode. What did you like so much that sliced bread has to move over?

Don't lose sleep over contradictory things said in twi by vpw or lcm, for example. vpw tailored his speeches to his audience and his mood, and would say the exact opposite of a previous talk to a different audience if the new speech advanced the agenda of the moment. For example, at an ROA (Rock of Ages) with the microphone on, he sounded like he cared nothing at all about money. When the microphones were off, he was very concerned that all students make all payments on time, and so on. lcm himself documented vpw telling him he could stay in the corps "as long as your money holds". In the CFS class, vpw made it sound like extra-marital sex wasn't supposed to be done, but in private on many occasions, he came up with all sorts of reasons it could be permitted. (Some were documented in the famous Adultery paper ("Adultery is bad"- "Don't you dare write a paper saying adultery is bad!")

Anyone who wants to brush up on ancient twi acronyms and names, or GSC usages, can see the whole enchilada in the Greasespot 101 forum, in the "Way-speak and Greasespot-speak" thread.

Simon Stagg and General Eiling both were killed off, so who can tell who's slated to die? Don't forget about Reverb/Hardline. If they kill Cisco, his brother's still alive, and we know almost nothing about him. I'm sure the consensus is that the chest-kill is a lot less gross than the brain-kill. (I'm in wholehearted agreement on that and am glad they didn't use the other.) We've also read Wally West/Flash stopping Thawne by threatening to go strangle Eobard in his cradle- and trick Eobard into fleeing the present and trying to chase Wally through time. We've already got some ideas as to what happened with Eobard. I've done the most speculating. My track record with "Agents of SHIELD" has gotten pretty good, so I'm a lot more confident about my theories of Flash-canon for TV.

At the end of the episode, Mrs Wolf gave her breakdown of the ending, and predicted that everything from the event about 6:30 into the episode (when the clock struck 10pm) to the end will be retconned. I agree with her, with only some disagreement as to whether the Chief will be saved. (She says he will, I say he won't.) Care to discuss the series as a whole, individual episodes, ruminations?

We just saw it. We both disagree. We were a little disappointed.

Ok, working on it.... "I know, baby, just how you feel You got to roll with the punches and get to what's real."

I'll skip the more obvious one, and try "Jeepers Creepers" in case Raf is trying something different.