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WordWolf

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  1. HA! When we were doing our analysis of that book in the thread, "the Way:Living in Wonderland", we deduced he probably did something with RR and that's what he asked forgiveness for, all based on his own phrasing of things.
  2. I can't post a SHORT explanation. There's an entire thread called "Momentus." here: The briefest posts not on that thread, but related, that I could find:
  3. When old man wierwille died and ownership of the farm changed? There's a timeline that probably should have its own thread by now... Ok, here's the new thread: And the answer to your question: "In 1957, vpw returned to Van Wert. He cut his ties with the Evangelical and Reformed Church, and took "his" PFAL class with him.In 1957, he and Harry bought out their brothers and bought the family farm outright. Rather than take ownership themselves, they declared it the property of "the Way", a church organization (thus tax-exempt.)(Per TW:LIL, Harry said this was the time they chose the name "the Way".) Work began on fixing up the farm." I'd have to check if "The Way: Living in Love" explicitly states old man Wierwille's death that year was the reason they bought out the farm that specific year. "In the transaction of the legal settlement of the estate in January, 1957, VP and I paid cash to Reuben and Charles for their shares. The we, VP and I, bypassed ownership and put the deed directly in the name of The Way, Incorporated. We took the name from the book of Acts where people who believed were called followers of 'that way.' " That's from page 78. He either died in December of 1956 or January of 1957.
  4. This is a timeline of vpw and his time in twi, from his birth to the year he died. As compiled on the thread, "the Way: Living in Wonderland." Edition 5.6 of my timeline. ==== This timeline is mostly from publications OF TWI. ========= Let's see. victor paul wierwille was born to a large family of German descent. (Born December 31, 1916.) According to locals, Ernst, his father, was an alcoholic with negligible education, with a bad temper who acted as a bully.This was true in his dealings with locals AND with his own family.Each child had their own chores. Little Victor chose to neglect his chores, and would vanish for hours into the woods nearby. (It has been noted that this running off may have been as much to avoid an abusive father as it was to avoid doing any work. Or it may be unrelated.) He claimed that when he was young, he once told a minister that he wanted to be a man of God like him. Other than this statement, Little Victor showed no actual involvement in the church, no actual effort or work in the things of the church. So, this seems to suggest an interest-not in being a man of God- but in being the man the whole community turned out to see, to have their respect. As a teenager, young Vic continued to lack any qualities of a man of God. In fact, he went out of his way to earn a reputation going in the opposite direction. He was a bully, a showoff and a braggart. (He seems to have been taught this at home.)He did all sorts of things for attention. He was quick to start a fight or mouth off at others. He had a quick wit. One of his common ways of showing off was to tear up and down the streets of New Knoxville on his motorcycle, trying to get attention. His demonstrated talents seemed to be limited to his quick wit and his ability to play a guitar, which he showed competency in. Old Man Wierwille was preparing to pass on thefamily farm to young Vic, as was the family tradition. Young Vic balked at this. He'd had plans to go to college. At first, he considered a few fields-business and so on- but by this time, he had decided upon the seminary. (This was before the time he referred to as "believing the Bible as the Word of God".) Old Man Wierwille was skeptical of this, and said that young Vic, having shown lack of hard work on simple manual labour on the farm, would never make a good preacher. Young Vic convinced him he would do better with books than with sweating out in the field. Young Vic went to school for the ministry. His community thought it was some kind of joke- everyone knew he lacked the proper character. (He never overcame that impression with them.) Victor had the option to study "Bible Languages" or other subjects requiring hard study. He instead chose to study Homiletics, the "softest" option he could have learned. (He never overcame his deficiency in study in Bible languages, church history, etc.-not even to the level of an informed layman as of 2004.) Victor was married July 2, 1937(Mr was 20, Mrs was 21). According to vpw, he and Mrs W married secretly while he was still in college. No reason for this was ever given. Victor suggested he played on his college's basketball team, and that after college he played on the professional team "the Sheboygan Redskins." His claim of each was phrased ambiguously ("I played basketball all through college" "I was involved in the Sheboygan Redskins") and the purpose seems to have been so that he was believed to have said he did both without actually making the claims. Later, he began making claims that he also "invented the hook shot" at this time. He graduated with a BA from Lakeland College in 1937. Donald was born in 1940. Victor graduated Princeton Theological Seminary in 1941, with a Masters in Practical Theology. He did his "trial sermons" in 1941 in Payne, Ohio for the Evangelical and Reformed Church. According to his memorial in 1985, he started his first pastorate July 1941, and was ordained July 29, 1941. (According to his account in TW:LIL, his first pastorate began in 1944 in Van Wert, Ohio, and continued until 1957.) Victor entered his first pastorate and wasted little time becoming a bully and a control freak AGAIN. He himself claimed he started his job by immediately doing whatever the elders told him not to do- even though it hampered his ability to do his job properly. According to him, they confronted him on this, he mouthed off at them, and they just let him go about his business, and the local church prospered as a direct result of him. He was known for building a fairly interesting sermon, and getting people involved, including the youths. (This was STILL before the time when he claimed he believed the Bible was the Word of God.) He said the following year, (1942) he slowly became discouraged and was searching. He was still the man he had been, which is to say he was prideful, arrogant, boastful, liked attention, and viewed the clergy as a PROFESSION and not a holy calling. (He could have been just as "called" as an accountant or actuary, say.) During 1942, he claimed he was ready to give up being a minister. About a year later (Payne, 1942, August), he met Rosal1nd R1nker. She was a former missionary to China and Korea. She's remembered as the anonymous person who asks vpw "Why don't you search for the greatest of all things in life which would teach Christians the HOW of a really victorious life?" This woman fixed a great deal of attention on him, and had a forceful personality. She spent some time with him alone. It was of this time that he later claimed he asked forgiveness of God. He also credits her with DOGGING HIM "on the Bible being the Word of God", and she "got me STARTED on the right track". which, until this time, he hadn't believed, not even in all his years of school. During 1942, he claimed he was ready to give up being a minister in August AND September. One month later (September 1942), an event happened that he later showed a habit of re-writing. As Victor told God he was getting ready to quit (again), He claimed that God spoke to him and said He (God) would teach him (Victor) His Word (God's Word) like it had not been known since the 1st century, if he (Victor) would teach it to others. (This is the famous 1942 promise.) vpw did not discuss this event with anyone until he told the early corps-according to Mrs W. Thus, the earliest possible origin-point of this story is 1969, when the "zero corps" was begun. Victor of course lacked the education in church history to contextualize this claim- since it was inaccurate as stated. This implies that this was a made-up story, or it came from a god lacking knowledge in history. Victor later added a second part to his story- a snowstorm. He said that he required PROOF of God, and asked God to let him see it snow. A moment later, he opened his eyes, and he saw a veritable blizzard out his window. The later addition to this story suggest that he felt it needed more support after using the initial story. Victor showed no marked improvement, neither in character, nor in behaviour, thru the rest of the 1940s (nearly the entire decade after this supposed promise), which strongly supports the rather direct assertion that he lied thru his teeth. vpw referred to this as one of the two most significant days of his life. October 3, 1942, vpw did his first radio broadcast. He continued to do a radio show under one name or another for several years- Vesper Chimes, aka Chimes Hour Youth Caravan. Its name changes to Chimes Hour Youth Caravan in 1947. Rhoda joined its staff in 1947. (Supposedly, the name "the Way" was in the documentation for this group since 1942.) In 1948, vpw was issued a "Doctorate" from Pikes Peak Seminary, an organization lacking accreditation and formal classes (among other things.) At some point, vpw began claiming that he took EVERY class Moody Bible School's Correspondence program issued. According to official records at Moody, vpw never turned in a single class of their correspondence school. This may mean he took classes and never finished ANY (which indicates laziness), or that he was lying about taking any of their classes. At one point, Rufus Moseley attempted to minister Holy Spirit to vpw, but vpw demonstrated an inability to receive it. In 1951, he visited missionaries in Honduras. In 1951, vpw made another claim he was ready to give up on the ministry (even after, supposedly a direct promise of God about really important stuff which promptly failed to materialize.) In November, 1951, vpw attended the Full Gospel Rally, in Tulsa, Oklahoma (a big Evangelical conference.) He made several claims of this conference. People at the conference OTHER than vpw supposedly had no difficulty beginning speaking in tongues. He claimed he faked speaking in tongues in a clever way, and others were unable to tell. He was further disillusioned about working for God. He then claimed a miraculous snowstorm blocked him into the city entirely, and ALL the evidence there NO blizzard whatsoever (and there was a WEALTH of evidence -at the airports, Amtrak and bus depot, the hotel staff, the attendees, etc) was concealed by angels. vpw also, apparently, never approached a window, or they made an illusion at the window. vpw has referred to this as one of the two most significant days of his life. (Many people currently feel that vpw completely made up the story that God spoke to him in 1942, and that his dependence upon this event plus the event at the Full Gospel Rally to establish his authority were both dressed up with made-up snowstorms to make them sound more spectacular. The specifics of both appear to support this position-especially since vpw was fond of increasing the magnitude of his claims in things as time went on.) Supposedly, a woman came up to him and told him that she knew a man who can help him- JE Stiles. He claims God told Stiles to attend the conference with the sole purpose of ministering the Spirit to vpw. vpw met with Stiles, and made a few chauvinistic observations to himself, before going off with Stiles. Stiles worked with him for a few hours nonstop, hammering across to vpw what the Bible says on speaking in tongues, and working over his doubts one by one. Finally, vpw was able to speak in tongues. It was during the 1950s that vpw's behaviour was noted to finally improve, although he still did not stop including inappropriate words or concepts in his sermons. In March, 1953, vpw found out about BG Leonard, and pushed his way into BG Leonard's CTC Gifts of the Spirit class, which Leonard told him was closed, but permitted him to enter after vpw arrived. vpw took this class twice, bringing several people with him the second time. (That second time was July 1953.) vpw then went off for a few months by himself, then told Leonard that he'd like to run Leonard's CTC Gifts of the Spirit class locally for his congregation on a one-time basis. Seeing the benefit to other Christians, Leonard agrees. vpw then ran the first of "his" Receiving the Holy Spirit Today classes, (October 1953) and took a photograph of that class. He told the students that this is "his" class called RtHST, with NO mention of Leonard's class from which 100% of the content had been directly lifted. The students had no reason to think he's lying. vpw sent the photograph to Leonard and told Leonard that this is a photo of the class that took Leonard's class on a one-time basis that was run locally. Leonard took vpw at his word, and had no idea that vpw continued to run Leonard's class with vpw's name on it, defrauding both Leonard AND the students. That the classes were interchangeable in terms of material was the opinion of vpw himself- anyone who had graduated Leonard's "Gifts of the Spirit" class was considered to be-by vpw- a graduate of "vpw's" RtHST class. To this day, many students STILL think this was was vpw's class, even when evidence is introduced to the contrary. Later, vpw added the contents of JE Stiles' work on "Gifts of the Spirit" and Bullinger's work on the Holy Spirit as well as "How to Enjoy the Bible", and expanded the class into a class that was the sum of the 3 men's work-Stiles, Bullinger and Leonard-rather than just Leonard. He also renamed the class "Power For Abundant Living", rather than "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today". vpw later made a few offhand comments here and there that the material in the class is not original, but its compilation was. (However, as it was constructed, vpw could have been sued by copyright holders for Bullinger, Stiles, and Leonard. Leonard found out but chose not to prosecute.) It is often noted that the supposed 1942 promise claimed vpw would be taught-by God- things unknown since the First Century Christians, if vpw would teach others- yet ALL the material vpw taught was all taken from Leonard/Stiles/Bullinger/Kenyon and a few others, and thus, it was all KNOWN. Therefore, if a god gave vpw revelation in 1942, it was a god that lied, since vpw's source for everything was MAN and NEVER represented information lost since the First Century AD-not even once. In 1953, vpw also took JE Stiles' "Gifts of the Spirit" book, changed a few words, and self-published it as the 1st Edition of "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today." That it was the same year is no coincidence-it was the "original" textbook for the "original" class. ("Original" in the sense that they were the 1.0 version of his class, not that they originated at that time.) Later editions would include incorporation of material from Leonard and Bullinger, and would include more cosmetic changes in the order of the words and the specific words used in an attempt to make it look less like Stiles' book. Among the changes was the deletion of a reference to an anonymous Christian who "put it together" for vpw (that was Stiles), who was missing by the 4th edition book, where vpw put it all together himself. vpw ran "his" PFAL classes continually from 1953 onward, with some success. Dr E.E. Higgins was one of the students in the October 1953 class. She's known as the anonymous person who would call vpw at night and ask what God showed him that day. In 1954, Dr Higgins first introduced vpw to EW Bullinger's books, and gave him his first copies of the Companion Bible, and "How to Enjoy the Bible." The contents of both these books later became integral parts of "vpw's" class. According to his published memorial, Bishop KC Pillai took PFAL in 1954, and began teaching a class on"Orientalisms of the Bible". (Pillai also wrote 3 small books: "Light Through an Eastern Window" and Volumes I and II of "Orientalisms of the Bible.") According to the memorial in 1985, 1955 was the year they officially chartered "the Way". In 1955, JP was born. 2 months later, VPW left JP with family for the next year or so, and took his wife and eldest son on a tour of the mission fields in India, on the Evangelical and Reformed Church's dime.(1955-1957) (Per TW:LIL) He was irritated that he's reminded he is not officially designated as a spokesman or investigator of theirs. According to his account in TW:LIL, he there met Bishop KC Pillai, whom he later invited to teach. According to the memorial, this tour of the mission fields ran from 1955-1956, and included stops in Great Britain, Europe, India, and "the Bible lands." According to the memorial, 1956 was when he wrote "the Dilemma of Foreign Missions in India."(According to TW:LIL) In 1957, vpw returned to Van Wert. He cut his ties with the Evangelical and Reformed Church, and took "his" PFAL class with him.In 1957, he and Harry bought out their brothers and bought the family farm outright. Rather than take ownership themselves, they declared it the propertyof "the Way", a church organization (thus tax-exempt.)(Per TW:LIL, Harry said this was the time they chose the name "the Way".) Work began on fixing up the farm. In 1959, he ran a Wisconsin Summer Camp. In 1960, he ran an Indiana Summer Camp. In 1961, he moved to the farm (refurbishment being sufficient for the move). Bishop Pillai arrived and taught at the summer school. (Per TW:LIL.) In 1961, he ran a Miamisburg, Ohio Summer Camp. In 1962, he moved the summer school to the farm (refurbishment being sufficient to hold classes there in the new BRC.) In 1962, Lamsa taught at the summer school.(Lamsa is another unconventional teacher who claimed special knowledge of the Bible and special status as a man of God.) In 1963, vpw went to Lima, Ohio and filmed the sessions called "the Teacher". (Despite this, success STILL had not taken off as vpw wished.) According to the memorial, 1967 was when "Are the Dead Alive Now?" (which is adapted from some of Bullinger's books) was published, and PFAL was filmed. This was the edition of PFAL that incorporated Bullinger's books (the contents, but not the books themselves) into the curriculum. In Fall of 1967, vpw first filmed the PFAL class. This was done in a setting with bright studio lights. (Bright studio lights do not cause cancer.) vpw claimed that a doctor told him that filming a second day would mean permanent eye damage, and that he was staring into 8000 watts. He filmed for 3 complete days, getting sore eyes from the bright lights (which do not cause cancer.) The figure of 2000 watts seems to be a more realistic figure for the light level of the filmed class (which is still VERY bright.) According to TW:LIL, In 1967, vpw read about the Christians at the House of Acts. vpw went there, impressed them, and convinced them he has extensive, EXCLUSIVE knowledge they lack. He then turned those he could from unorganized Christians into a recruitment arm for his class and organization. They agreed to handle things on the East and West coasts, and many young Christians were impressed with THEM and join. It's been suggested that one of the reasons he went there was because he'd heard of the "free-love" movement and wanted to connect with Christians who would have sex outside of marriage. Thus claim might sound ridiculous if his accounts of them didn't include little comments about their displays of affection-and especially since he'd asked one of them-back then and there-to give him DETAILS on what an orgy was like. He followed up by claiming that God PERMITTED orgies-but considered monogamy BETTER. It's also believed that San Francisco is where vpw bought the pornographic materials he showed the corps, some Advanced Classes and CFS classes-like the movie of the two women with the dog. (He MENTIONED that video to many Advanced classes and CFS classes where it was not SHOWN.) According to the memorial, his trip to Haight-Ashbury/House of Acts was in 1968. As of 1969, sizeable numbers of young people had flocked to twi from both coasts as a result. Once there was sizeable membership in both coasts, vpw pushed out the Christians from the House of Acts and insisted authority would come FROM hq and tithes would go TO hq. No exceptions. At that point (1969), vpw made his first attempt at a Way Corps, which resulted in the famous "Zero Corps". At some point-presumably early in the way corps history, and possibly as early as 1969, vpw (according to Mrs W's account) first begins to tell his "snow on the pumps" account to people, starting with the way corps. At another point-before the early 1970s-vpw began adding to the "special revelation" that produced the books and classes (which were really compilations of the work of other Christians with their names removed) and began speaking of special revelation about current events. He began to expound on some conspiracy theories to the corps, and about attempts to take over the United States. vpw was getting this material from the John Birch Society and the Liberty Lobby. A few people on-grounds were aware of information coming in from them, but almost nobody knew those were the direct sources of his supposed "revelation". As he had done often before, he just claimed to mysteriously know things and never cited a source-leaving the listeners to guess that there WAS no conventional source, making this ANOTHER thing God just told him. These conspiracy theorist organizations and their personal biases fill in the blanks in some of his odder statements. Their anti-Semitism helps explain his claims that the current Jews were not descended from the historic Jews (which has been disproven genetically since), and his recommendations of books like "the Thirteenth Tribe." Their condemnation of rock and roll and musician/celebrities explain his claims of all musicians being possessed, and his recommendation of "the Marxist Minstrels" to the corps (which claimed rock and roll was a communist plot to take over the United States.) vpw even had David Noebel, who wrote "the Marxist Minstrels" come and lecture the corps. In 1971, vpw began his WOW Ambassador program. This program underwent some changes, but primarily was a one-year committment to get sent out, support yourself, find housing, and run PFAL classes. According to his memorial, 1971 was when the Orange Book, "Power for Abundant Living" was first self-published. It contained mostly material from Leonard's class and from Bullinger's book "How to Enjoy the Bible". A number of pamphlets called "Studies in Abundant Living" accompanied the PFAL class from fairly early on (the filmed class names "Studies in Human Suffering", later renamed "Job:Victim to Victor".) In 1971, the first 3 volumes of "Studies in Abundant Living" are published, compiling the pamphlets into 3 small hardbound books. In 1974, Emporia College in Emporia, Kansas was bought. It was renamed "the Way College of Emporia". Despite an absence of accreditation, licensed professors, and a school "library" composed ENTIRELY of used textbooks donated by way members, it was put forth as if it is a normal, accredited college. In 1975, "Jesus Christ is Not God" was published. This was the last book- not counting Vol 4 of Studies in Abundant Living- that was actually put together by vpw. In 1976, campuses were purchased in Rome City, Indiana ("the College of Biblical Research") and Gunnison, Colorado ("the Way Family Ranch-Camp Gunnison"). In 1977, the PFAL '77 was done live at Ball State University. According to the memorial, in 1977, Howard Allen and Donald Wierwille were installed as Trustees on the Board of Trustees (replacing "Uncle" Harry Wierwille and Ermal Owens.) In 1977, Volume 4 of Studies in Abundant Living was published. In 1978, the land for the LEAD Outdoor Academy was purchased in Tinnie, New Mexico. In 1979, Advanced Class '79 ran (live, I imagine.) In 1980, "Jesus Christ Our Passover" was published. This was the first book written by competent staff and researchers. According to the book itself, it was written "by Victor Paul Wierwille", with no mention of anyone else. It was a higher-caliber book than twi normally self-publishes. In 1982, twi celebrates its "Fortieth Anniversary" since the radio shows that weren't called "the Way". In 1982, vpw installed LCM as the new president of twi and vpw becomes "president emeritus". In 1982, "Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed" was published. It also was written by staff, and said "by Victor Paul Wierwille" on the cover. It relied largely on the calculations of another writer as well. This book also saw the breakthrough of proper crediting, since it actually named the other writer (Martin) and his book. In 1984, a live PFAL class was taught at Camp Gunnison, and a manor house was purchased in Gartmore, Scotland. It was named the Way College of Biblical Research. (aka Gartmore House, or "the big house" to the villagers of Gartmore.) vpw spent his life drinking alcoholic beverages and smoking cigarettes and cigars- tobacco products. Although he usually did it "off-camera", many people knew some of this. Everyone knew he at least smoked, but he seemed to chain-smoke when "no one was watching." Furthermore, he had a "coffee cup" next to him for morning meetings and so on-and often, the contents had nothing to do with coffee. Those who ever commented on it (who were few enough among those who noticed) were treated to his comments about us not being "under condemnation" and thus it wasn't sinful, and therefore had no consequences. However, there WERE consequences.... By 1984, the long-term exposure to alcohol-which damages internal organs, including those that act as the body's filtration system and also damages the brain- and long-term exposure to tobacco-which is a known cancer-causing agent (unlike studio lights)- resulted in some permanent damage to vpw' body. He acquired cancer of the eye and liver, and suffered a stroke. vpw quite vocally-and often- announced that the eye damage was the result of getting cancer from the studio lights used when filming PFAL- thus saying it was the result of virtuous activity, and used to give the students a guilty conscience. Once, when addressing the corps, he was speaking on personal committment to God. He said "I gave my EYE-what are YOU willing to give?" Further, in private, vpw was MOST disturbed that he had ANY physical problems, especially this one. He claimed he'd never been sick or needed an aspirin EVER- not ONE DAY in his life-before this. Not even in PRIVATE did he ever seem to admit he'd exposed his body to carcinogens for DECADES. He had surgery that removed the cancer-stricken eye. The details of the stroke were COMPLETELY hidden-although there were witnesses- and the existence of any cancer produced a problem. According to vpw's DOCTRINE, any Christian should be able to believe sufficiently to burn out a cancer from their body. vpw had slowly manipulated his personal image to the point that he was frequently seen as some sort of super-Christian-which is what he wanted. However, this meant he should have EASILY believed away his cancer. WORSE, he'd taught in the Advanced class that, since a cancer has a life of its own (like algae), it must be the result of devil activity. Since vpw was supposedly a super-Christian, he should have been able to deflect such an assault easily. However, rather than adjust his image, or correct his doctrine-which had already hurt many other Christians-he simply hid the cause of his descent into death. In 1985 the "Word over the World Auditorium" opened at the organizations hq on the farm. vpw died May 20, 1985 at age 68. According to his death certificate, the cause was cancer of the liver and of the eye. According to most people in twi at the time, the cause was UNKNOWN. The most commonly-stated reason was "he got tired of fighting." In the last few months of his life, vpw visited Gartmore and spoke privately with Chr1s Ge*r. He (CG) later claimed that his own paper which he wrote afterwards-"the Passing of the Patriarch"-was based entirely on private conversations with vpw. (Some people believe him, some do not.) That paper-among other things-also claims that vpw would have been able to "believe himself healthy" if he'd wanted to. Volume 5 of Studies in Abundant Living was published posthumously. Its contents were from vpw, it was edited by Chr1$ Ge*r. =========
  5. The original and remake have some trivia I like, at any rate. -In the original, one member of the principal cast didn't stay at the same hotel as the others. -The writer was a gas-station attendant who handed the script to one of the actors while filming up his car. -Significant dialogue was often ad-libbed- in many cases, improving on the official script as they bantered. -In the remake, a scene eating a shrimp cocktail was reshot. By the time it was done, the actor had eaten 40 shrimps. (It's not his only scene in the movie where he's eating on-camera.) -One character kept his name from the original, the rest were all renamed. -Four of the actors have appeared in "Friends", (but I doubt this movie was meant to reunite them.) ============ I think you guys can figure it out from that. I don't want to make this TOO easy.
  6. I thought we all were understanding that the phrasing in use in this thread was not LITERAL, but FIGURATIVE. Instead of saying "when did Jesus stop being God?" the literal would have been "When did vpw stop teaching that Jesus was God?" which is literally what he meant, but he wrote FIGURATIVELY to match vpw's book title "Jesus Christ is Not God." So, we write of when Jesus "started being God" or when Jesus "stopped being God" but mean when "teachings began declaring Jesus was God" or when "teachings at twi stopped teaching that and began teaching Jesus was not God." ================ It's obvious, reading vpw's really old stuff, that vpw was teaching the Trinity for some time. He was doing it long after his supposed 1943 promise which supposedly began twi (despite him working full-time at his church for several years following and not using "The Way" publickly for anything), and it seems he was using it all the way into the end of the 1960s, because he was claiming that when he suborned part of the House of Acts and hijacked the hippies. His taped version of pfal included that as well- end of the 1960s. As one poster pointed out, it was THE SUMMER OF 1970 when vpw started teaching this, because it was the Summer School of 1970 where vpw began to dwell on this, and speculate that Bullinger wasn't REALLY a Trinitarian, and so on- and research and writings followed that chronologically. So, in-house, vpw began teaching it that Summer, with more things to follow. Separate questions would include WHY he taught it, and what he meant to accomplish- with several answers all possibly being true at the same time, and some possibly being added as time went on and he discovered possible further benefits (i.e., hey, I can grab new converts among young people who actually disapprove of the Trinity doctrine.) ============================== A separate question was also raised: "When did Jesus START being God? From a historical writing standpoint, that is. I get that the bible says he was with God in the beginning. But there was a time before any people at all believed that to be the case." That was clarified right there- when, HISTORICALLY, did people start to teach that. I can SPECULATE as to where, when and why. The following is pure speculations and ruminations on my part, and if you don't like them, feel free to ignore them. I've noticed that human nature has not changed through all of history. People NOW think of themselves as more enlightened than previous centuries and millenia- while making new variations of the same old mistakes they would criticize of others from long ago. Among the RELEVANT issues that touch the current discussion is a tendency to INFLATE CLAIMS to match the Joneses, or to top the Joneses. I think there's a rather ham-handed and awkward instertion into the account of the moment of Jesus' death in Matthew. The text moves smoothly through the present, and remains consistent in doctrine, all until the earthquake. Then we suddenly have 2 verses saying that saints' graves opened up, the saints got up alive, and over the course of the next few days, a bunch of people saw them. Then we jump back to the moment of the crucifixion and an eyewitness account of a number of things. The idea of ONE guy out of his grave really is a big deal in the Gospels among the religious authority and the people. NOBODY later even MENTIONS that "MANY" saw a BUNCH of people were out of their graves a few days BEFORE that happened. (The idea of Jesus as the "first-fruits" from the dead, among other things, is all flagrantly violated by these 2 verses that are NEVER mentioned again.) Neither those who believe, nor those who don't know what to believe, nor those suppressing the accounts of Jesus' resurrection, ever bring it up, not from any perspective-and we know from Acts that a LOT of things were a big deal, and healing a blind man was a big scandal when Jesus did it. Ok, so, WHY in the world was such a ham-handed insertion done? That goes back to the contents, and a little knowledge of history- and keeping up with the Joneses. The added parts were of the dead wandering the streets and lots of people seeing them. WHY insert such an account? To keep up with the Joneses - or to top the Joneses. It's not beyond conception to see some early Christians MEANING WELL and hoping to TOP the religions of the time, even if it meant fudging something. In this case, what would they try to top? The Roman state religion. In addition to all the gods of the people- many of them Greek gods that were carried over to Rome, renamed, and worshipped afterwards, Rome had their own thing where THE EMPEROR WAS WORSHIPPED AS A GOD- coincidentally, by order of the Emperor. So, every emperor once that was established was seen to be both god and man-and was worshipped. We also can find that Julius Caesar's assassination was seen as a big deal by some Romans, and that later accounts of his assassination included claims that it was signaled by comet activity (traditional signaler of an ill omen) as well as THE DEAD RISING FROM THEIR GRAVES, wandering around in their graveclothes. (This was such a well-known report that it was taught in schools in England a millenium later. We know THAT because a student in those schools-William Shakespeare- later used what he learned in school in writing his plays- and this particular story was incorporated into his writing of the text of the play "HAMLET." I think the WHY of "why did Jesus START being God" is related both to this phenomenon, and to the audience who received it and dropped their own preconceived notions, whether or not they were there in the first place. This is ALSO human nature. Anecdote: The English word "changeling" has at least 2 usages that continue to the modern day. One is to refer to a shapechanger, something that can change its physical form (like Constable Odo of Star Trek: Deep Space 9, and other characters that can suddenly become an animal and so on.) A different one is that of a baby who was exchanged in its cradle- kidnapped by faeries who left a faerie in its place so the parents wouldn't know their baby was kidnapped. (I can provide links for those, if anyone cares and can't find them for themselves.) Both usages are common-if you're talking to the right audience, they can all know exactly what you mean for one or the other. I bring this up because the word for the faerie-folk definition was used in a game which referred to (fictional) people who were part-human, part-faerie. Yes, yet another definition, but based on the folklore version of faeries. The characters can be played in their own stories, or interact with other stories in a shared setting- modern vampires, modern werewolves, modern ghosts, etc. I was explaining the shared setting to someone some time ago. He listened to me through a few seconds of describing the vampires and werewolves, but was disinterested in hearing a few seconds of the "faerie changelings" (the term I used). He interrupted me- insisting that he already knew what a "changeling" was and didn't need a description of them for the game. So, I insisted HE describe them to ME. Rather than a description of a faerie left in a crib, he began describing shapeshifters (using the Star Trek example, as both the term and the show were current.) The point of me bringing this up is that it's human nature that at least SOME people will STOP LISTENING when they hear something they THINK they know. They will STOP LISTENING and STOP LEARNING and rely on PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS when approaching something NEW that they DON'T UNDERSTAND, and insist it's something OLD that they UNDERSTAND WELL. (I've warned people about this when describing things to people, since it happens with different things when someone deals with something unusual but that uses terms that people THINK they understand.) What did all of that have to do with this discussion? We can see that people will approach any subject with preconceived notions, and at least some people won't bother to correct them. How does this affect the beliefs of the early Christians and their converts? Well, both BEFORE and AFTER Constantine made Christianity the state religion, there were plenty of Greeks and Romans who came along with Greek and Roman religious ideas. So, the Jews who followed the Torah for centuries had some notions, and the Christian Church that came later often had notions that clashed with them greatly- not in the sense of "this was fulfilled" but in the sense of "this was never true". There were Greco-Roman concepts of the dead persisting, semi-conscious, as shades in the land of the dead, and humans that became gods, and humans that were part-god, and so on. Let those people loose on a doctrine that says the opposite of what they say, and eventually SOME of them will insist it says exactly what they were used to. That's independent of Constantine's very deliberate attempts to merge Christianity with the Roman style of living by inserting all sort of connections he could manage. Human nature would do that- but he made it official and sped up the process considerably. ============================== All of that goes to say, there were people who taught some of these things in ignorance because they never bothered to correct their own preconceived notions. There were people who felt themselves in competition with Greek and Roman religions, and felt the need to top them even if it meant lying, and there were those who merged the religions for political advantage or because they were ordered to by those who sought political advantage. Looking back from now, I can't unsnarl exactly who was responsible for which. Perhaps some scholar with better resources and the skills to read the Latin and Greek of the time could do so, but I really don't care enough to pin down things more finely than that, certainly not so many centuries later.
  7. Something with a lot of post-production and additional footage, probably. "Lord of the Rings-Return of the King"?
  8. Yes, of course. Every single episode, in some seasons, introduced ANOTHER receptionist with their own little quirk. The payoff was seasons later. Scott Bakula's character is bowling with the FYI team, and chatting. "What? No, seriously-Murphy's had a lot of secretaries?" I channel-surfed, caught that, and went into hysterics.
  9. You would mention "the Shoveler" while I was out of town....
  10. I hope you guys will get this fast. I will be offline till the coming weekend. The title character sure had a lot of receptionists....
  11. We did entirely different things, actually. Feel free to post more in the humor forum. The original thread was a decade old, so it's no surprise you missed it.
  12. Sorry. I was under the impression it was not a new show when I saw episodes. And what I read made it sound like the finale was received with near apathy, especially once the ending was revealed. It sounded like the audience would be disinterested in seeing it air ever again.
  13. Here was the old one, "twi Mad Libs."
  14. Yes, we had twi Mad Libs Round 1 before. When I have time, I will do a second round. Give me at least a week.
  15. Strictly speaking, vpw did not publish the ugly bronze statue or its collectible midget counterparts. He died in 1985. Sometime around 1991, they made the big, ugly statue and greenlit the little ones. AFAIK, there were never plastic ones for the dash or little hula dancers, just heavy, bronze statuettes.
  16. With a broad topic, there's room for side-discussions that are still on-topic.
  17. Is this the contrived "How I Met Your Mother" series? I'm glad they actually MET, but by the time they did, nobody cared anymore.
  18. In case you missed it, TLC, that's a "brush-off." Apparently, he doesn't want to discuss any of that with you.
  19. When we're talking vpw, of course there is. When he was young, he was a neighborhood bully, the son of a man known for yelling a lot. He co-opted the hippie movement, but in private, he taught them conspiracy tinhat stuff from the john Birch Society, and all that fear always includes a side-order of violence in response to the main-course of FEAR! vpw was fond of having ARMED bodyguards, and made comments to the corps like how this person should be shot or that one should be shot. One time, one military veteran heard this, and began packing to go off and shoot that person-one poster here talked him into unpacking and staying instead. As for lcm, his "style" largely consisted of yelling. vpw cursed in private a lot- but lcm did it in public a lot- parents reported their children having learned to curse specifically FROM lcm.
  20. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pigeonhole "3: a neat category which usually fails to reflect actual complexities" If I turn on the television at the perfect moment and gain insight from something broadcast at that instant, and someone comes along trying to explain that in terms of "gift ministries", I have to call "bushwah" on that because Not every blessing has to be the direct result of a "gift ministry." I really don't know how to make that any simpler.
  21. That's why I said he "lifted things he didn't understand." When he taught it in pfal, he definitely didn't understand it, because he taught the opposite later. Naturally, this makes for an obvious error, since it can't be both true as one thing and completely true as its opposite at the same time. Not a problem for the sensible student-but for those who think that vpw was close to Jesus in understanding, or getting it direct from God Almighty, this is a problem and requires denial or enough fog to hide it completely.
  22. Of course, just taking isolated quotes is no guarantee that they are FAIRLY represented. Cutting a quote from its context can be used to make it say the opposite of what it was meant to say. "There is no God" from "The fool says in his heart,'There is no God.'" It's certainly common enough in politics, even though it's dishonest. As for what vpw stole, I have no proof anything he stole was necessarily sound just because he felt it was worth stealing. He plagiarized the Word-Faith movement, with their "believe and deflect all bad events in your life" stuff- and that whole movement's based on a Christian voodoo. vpw claimed that "all the women in the kingdom belonged to the king" when Israel was a kingdom- but that was never true except in his delusions. vpw often lifted things he didn't even understand- which is why he sometimes made some remarkable mistakes or contradicted himself. ("'All' is always either 'all without exception' or 'all without distinction." "Now, was this 'all' 'all without exception', or 'all with a distinction'?") Just ASSUMING vpw's sources were sound and relatively error-free is a bad bet.
  23. Even supposing your friend was joking, he was joking with a pattern of inflated claims like we'd heard lots of times before and after that. "In 1976 I attended my first ROA's in Sydney Ohio. I remember the WOW's with whom we travelled saying that VP does not sleep during this whole entire event. He was so 'spiritually' wired that he was awake for the whole 4 days, praying and teaching and meeting needs..." "It was TWI that caused the fall of the Soviet Union. If it had not been for Wierwille's stand on the Word countless countries would have fallen to communism, California would have slipped off into the Pacific Ocean, and we would all now be speaking Russian - That is, if the giant comet that was headed directly for the Earth has not been diverted by VPW's great believing." "When Squeaky From went to shoot the President and her gun did not fire, it was because VP had the foresight to send WOW's there that day. Because of the WOW's presence, under the direction of VP, our President was saved." "God told VP to put WOW's on the San Andres fault in California. This prevented the HUGE earthquake which otherwise would have happened. I recall someone in CA said something bad about TWI and VP said, "I should just take my WOW's off the fault and see what happens to them." "Did you know that TWI prevented the certain overthrow of the USA by all the witnessing we did and by the production and promotion of America Awakes? It was all going to happen by the bi-centennial in 1976. Heck, I still have my copy of "The Secret new Constitution" which had been drafted by the evil powers, the Catholic church being foremost among them! America Awakes drove back the spirit power. Our country was saved! Thank God all those WOW's signed up. Just in the nick of time. Their door to door and street witnessing changed destiny! A more recent example in TWI II was Y2K. Quote from LCM and other leaders: "It was the preparation on the household of The Way that kept anything from happening."
  24. Not every blessing has to be the direct result of a "gift ministry." Trying to pigeonhole everything into one's pet theory is a good way to really sail off into left field- and was/is common in twi. I once heard someone on an STS tape teaching on his cutesy concept of "Recover, Resist, Rejoice." He began to read and expound. "*reading* 'Be sober, be vigilant' *expounding* That's like recovering." Uh, no it isn't-and it shouldn't have to be unless you're forcing EVERYTHING to fit into your framework, subordinating the communication of God Almighty to your religious construct.
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