WordWolf

I'm not going to pretend the continuance of the splinters over decades is a good thing. However, nearly everyone I ever met who was in twi as a regular has moved on- and they jumped from twi to a splinter group, then drifted off entirely from the splinter group sooner or later. So, to pull numbers out of the air with no claim to accuracy, if 3% of twi is still in twi, and another 7% is running or attending splinter groups, and 80% joined splinter groups then left, then the splinter groups were good for the 80% even if they're bad for the 7% remaining. (Not counting the other 10% who just walked off by themselves without stopping in a splinter group.) In attendance, twi and the splinters are running a zero-sum game. Neither is bringing in attendees as a net gain- splinters bring in ex-twi one way or another. With neither twi nor the splinters bringing in enough people to replace the ones that leave voluntarily or die of old age (a few people joining means the numbers still trickle downwards), the problem of both is self-correcting in the long run. Each "one true household" will dwindle down to one household, and eventually one elderly person pontificating by himself/herself to a circle of empty chairs. In the meantime, yes, that's not good news to the aging folk who choose to remain in their splinters, but they're adults and can make their own choices. It's not like they haven't been warned. How hard is it to find us and other opposing viewpoints if one is trying?

I'd wonder how Raf is posting without the power grid, but there's lots of possible answers (battery power, generator... his house still has power or he moved to a hotel with its own generator....) With local news here slow this weekend,we actually have had a lot of Miami coverage. (Especially last night, when we got a local thunderstorm here so everyone stayed at home and nothing happened.) So, we're watching coverage of Miami, with rain outside adding verisimilitude to the live reports. My favorite was a woman staying in Miami, who said she was confident the thing wasn't going to be as bad as they described...maybe it would shrink to a Category 1 before it arrived. Personally, I don't think storms tend to jump directly from Cat5 to Cat1, but then I'm not a weatherman.

I've seen much of "Silence of the Lambs" but kept missing the early scenes. I have new idea on the current one.

I've often said that the splinter groups have served a valuable purpose as "airlocks." Just as a person returning from deep underwater needs to spend some time in differing pressure environments before reaching the surface (their body needs to adjust to different pressure environments), people leaving twi need time to spend in differing pressure environments before fully escaping (their mind needs to adjust to different pressure environments.) So, part of it is being enough like the imagined "good old days" of twi, while a person looks around and sees that the rest of the world and the rest of Christianity really is no worse than twi and is usually better. Once that's sunk in, then the splinter needs to turn up the heat and do something stupid so the person gets sick and tired of being sick and tired, and jumps ship completely from twi and ex-twi. Then they can go do something else- alone, with other Christians, with non-Christians. etc. So, as we see, the pinhead who tried to bully Twinky while having a meltdown served a vital function- he drove off "his congregation" and they went out into the world just as Twinky did, and for much the same reasons. He didn't MEAN it that way, but it worked out that way. (He meant it to her for evil...)

*reads* The copy I was able to read online, by Bill W himself, of the 12 Traditions, does sound similar to the "self-supporting" thing twi'ers know so well. It's entirely possible that vpw got the idea from there, or developed it further from there. However, the idea predates AA. The concept of the "indigenous church", begun in mission work, includes "the three selfs", and may predate the 20th century. Certainly, its earliest proponents, like Henry Venn, did- he died in 1873. I know that vpw ripped off the phrase and concept of :"rice Christians" from the mission fields and criticisms of it -which are hand-in-hand with why "the three selfs" were proposed- for his little booklet on "the Dilemma of Foreign Missions." (Given his history of plagiarism, and the unoriginality of his criticisms of the mission field, it should have been possible for vpw to type out the whole thing having never BEEN to the mission fields at all (and from the way he spoke about the things, I doubt he was actually among "the people" and not the VIPs for most of his trip. =============================================== http://www.dacb.org/stories/non africans/legacy_venn.html "Henry Venn was one of the shapers and movers of the nineteenth-century missionary movement. Today he is known chiefly as a father of the "indigenous church" principle (self-supporting, self-governing, self-propagating)." Voice of the Martyrs: http://persecutedchurch.blogspot.com.ar/2007/07/is-three-self-formula-still-relevant.html "Most students of missions have heard of the principle that a newly planted church is mature or indigenous when it is self-governing, self-propagating, and self-supporting. " https://missionissues.wordpress.com/2007/09/11/the-three-selves-formula-1/ "I assume that all students of missiology are familiar with the three-selves formula. But then, I’m not writing here only for missiologists and therefore a very short explanation of the three-selves formula is appropriate. In 1854 and 1856 (specific dates debatable), two missionaries, Henry Venn and Rufus Anderson, independently of each other, said that the three signs of an indigenous church are that they should be self-propagating, self-governing and self-supporting. John Nevius, who also lived in the times of Venn and Anderson, further popularised this so-called “three-self” paradigm. Since that time it has almost universally been accepted that these three characteristics should be present before a church can be considered to be indigenous. I was taught these principles at university and have on more than one occasion heard, during mission meetings, how important it is that these principles should be adhered to in the church in Swaziland." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_church_mission_theory has a history of the subject and a list of names to look up for the interested. ============================================= It's currently a topic of some disagreement whether or not they are relevant to Christianity, mission work, or the Bible. I'm not going to pretend to know enough to speak on it either way. However, vpw used some of their terminology, including the terminology for the "con" side while he was promoting the "pro" side for use in twi! So, we know he was well-familiar with this topic- which was well-published long before he studied.

Supposedly, UMPlayer's Mac version reads rm files just fine. I'm not running a Mac and can't check it. (I had a problem with its Windows version, but I may just have a bad download.)

As much as I empathize with the crowds of individuals who have been hurt and exploited by twi across the decades, I have to cast a suspicious eye here. These were people who were in during the 70s. They saw it get worse into the 80s. They lived through the confrontations at the top and the firings. They lived through Geer's power-grab and "Passing of the Patriarch"-when some of the top leaders left because the BOT was deaf to criticism,They lived through lcm's demand for an oath of loyalty-when 4/5 of the ministry either left because they were fed up (or outraged someone would make such an unBiblical request), or were kicked out because they simply refused to take such an oath (or left because others were kicked out for refusing to take such an oath.) They were in a leadership position at the time and retained it- which tells us that when lcm demanded that people make an oath of loyalty to HIM PERSONALLY, they SWORE THAT OATH. (Others were kicked out of twi immediately for refusing.) They stayed through the next year, when more people trickled out as the completely new (more blatant) direction of twi was made plain. They stayed all through the 90s, when lcm kicked people out for "suspicion" or for refusing to hand over more of their salary to twi. They stayed through all the slanders at respected leaders who left. They stayed when lcm ADMITTED to abusing his office and committing adulterous acts with members of the congregation. They stayed when rfr tightened things so much that people on-grounds were required to sign in and out when going to use the toilet. They stayed when the SNS tapes were expected to be listened to live when they were recorded, then again privately, and yet again with the local groups (rather than teach something new.) They stayed through all the orders to bleach teachings clean of anything approaching originality, and enforcement of that across the country. They stayed through all that, all while across the DECADES, others left and did just fine without twi. In fact, some local groups just drifted off and did exactly what they people claimed they wanted to do- be self-governing and self-propagating and just teach some Bible. This happened lots of times, across the country, across the DECADES. These people stayed with twi all through that. In fact, in this account, they stayed through virtually their entire adult life, *counts* a FORTY-YEAR journey that was just FINE staying in twi while virtually everyone else who was ever in twi got sick of it and left, even if it was to go off and teach more Bible without the fascism and venom. That's more time in twi than some ex-twi'ers have been ALIVE. NOW they're jumping ship. Obviously, something has changed NOW, something that they care about. Is it a sudden absence of Bible, or a sudden wave of directives? No- those were all more severe in the past, and these people stayed. What changed NOW is that this is their personal opportunity to leave. Not just "keep doing what God wants"-they could have done that anytime, most of us did just that when we left- but to leave WITH A STRUCTURE IN PLACE AND A POSITION OF AUTHORITY. They're leaving with their whole new DENOMINATION and their elder's hat, leaving to step into authority. It wasn't enough to just teach some Bible and pray. They waited until they had an organic structure of exactly who they wanted, AND a chance to leave with an OFFICE in that structure. (It wasn't enough to just run a local Bible fellowship, or they would have drifted off decades ago.) So, yes, the timing is, to say the least, peculiar- not for when it IS, but for when it ISN'T. Anyone think there's a mid-life crisis or two in there?

Ok, for those with trouble reading the audio files, they're "rm" files, RealMedia. Real Alternative, Media Player Classic-Home Cinema, and Daum Potplayer all run those files just fine, and they're all free and not loaded with spyware or anything. http://www.free-codecs.com/download/real_alternative.htm https://mpc-hc.org/ http://daumpotplayer.com/download/

A lot of people weren't fans of RealPlayer, so there are options. To be specific, "RealAlternative" was invented to play without all the baggage Real tagged onto the player. http://www.free-codecs.com/download/real_alternative.htm For that matter, although VLC didn't play them (which surprised me), both Media Player Classic-Home Cinema and Daum PotPlayer run rm files. (They played just fine for me now.) https://mpc-hc.org/ http://daumpotplayer.com/download/

Until there's some permanent remedy, you can access the old files from the GSC documents and the RealAudio files. They're archived elsewhere. Here's the menu for the RealAudio files: http://wayback.archive.org/web/20030309073639/http://www.greasespotcafe.com:80/waydale/main/real.html For those of you who need a media player for your computer, I recommend a free program like VLC player (as flexible as exists)(didn't read the files) MPC-HC (media player classic-home cinema, also very flexible) UMPlayer (again, flexible) (didn't read the files) Daum Pot Player (the smallest of the free, flexible players that I know of.) Real Alternative (designed to read Real Media files especially) ================================================== The Lawsuit-Related documents are here: http://wayback.archive.org/web/20030215213033/http://www.greasespotcafe.com:80/waydale/main/lawsuit-main.htm ===================================================== Documents FROM twi are here: http://wayback.archive.org/web/20030216030833/http://www.greasespotcafe.com:80/waydale/main/way-generated.htm Those of you who need help reading PDFs either need Adobe or SumatraPDF or some other free PDF reader. ======================================================== Corps notes are here: http://wayback.archive.org/web/20030215212317/http://www.greasespotcafe.com:80/waydale/main/corpsnotes.html ============================ GSC editorials are here: http://wayback.archive.org/web/20030215212642/http://www.greasespotcafe.com:80/waydale/main/editorial.html ================================= Newspaper articles are here: http://wayback.archive.org/web/20030215214149/http://www.greasespotcafe.com:80/waydale/main/newspapers.htm ================================= Miscellaneous documents are here: http://wayback.archive.org/web/20030215214434/http://www.greasespotcafe.com:80/waydale/main/misc.htm =================================== Recommended reading is here: http://wayback.archive.org/web/20030216030722/http://www.greasespotcafe.com:80/waydale/main/reading.htm This should be useful until a more direct solution is posted (and handy as a backup for future crashes.)

You can access the appropriate menu here: http://wayback.archive.org/web/20030309073639/http://www.greasespotcafe.com:80/waydale/main/real.html I checked, and you can get the Realmedia file there. If you can't play the file, you need a more flexible media player. Let me know if you need some suggestions for free media players to download.

Don't have a source for your requests. However, you might like a few other possibilities. http://www.salarico.com/index.html http://www.believerlinks.com/cortright/bbmusic.htm You might find some music you like as well, or better.

The comforting thing to me is that this is all self-limiting. twi is circling the drain. The splinter groups are circling the drain. The current members are almost all older folk from twi, and they leave sooner or later (the most loyal die off.) They're not being replaced because it's hard to get converts when all you have is what twi has, or what ex-twi have. When they make a stir and get some people (the "personal prophecy" fiascos), it blows up in their faces and lots of people head for the door. When young folk are attracted, it's never enough "ministry-wide" to fill a university lecture, and many of THOSE are the offspring of the insiders. Lots of those kids leave-and they take the converts with them because the converts were hanging out with the youngsters. So, that leaves a handful of retirees here and there, with occasional youngsters in the front of rooms with a retiree whispering all the answers to him (v2p2) , and all talking about "prosperity" and how they can just believe their way into whatever they want while what they HAVE falls FAR short of what they want. It's like Zeno's Paradox. The groups shrink in half, then in half again, then in half again..... 100 people in a splinter becomes 50 which becomes 25 and so on.

"Then, dictor went on a rampage about international outreach, especially in Europe and Africa. He said that Geer was digging up all sorts of garbage on how phucked up Europe was, and that he (Geer) would now be made European Outreach Coordinator and European Corpse Coordinator as soon as the deal was done on the location, which turned out to be Gartmore. That's when we all figured out what happened with Beence and Bo. When POP blew up in April, 1986, I had to send Pat Hughes and Randy Feese to St. Mary's, where finnegan was in a suicidal ideation episode, because so much in POP was about how vinny and Gary Curtis had screwed up Europe and Africa. Geer read it at the special corpse meeting he called. He named names including, Don and Howard, Da forehead, finnegan, Gary Curtis, Tom Knupp, Gary Frederick and the IO staff, and others. That's what kicked off finnegan's "suicide run". Finnegan regained his composure and became a staunch geerite from that moment on. " =========================================================== That explains a lot. Specifically, for me...... Some time around early 1990, Geer put out "A Pivot Point in History", a 3-part tape set that claimed God was not All-Knowing, and did so in easy-to-refute claims and justifications. When I finally spoke to VInce about it, VInce (who should have figured it out LONG before I did since I heard about it several months later and by accident) used a half-@$$ed attempt to AGREE with it, and was only interested in me not going around discussing it with people. He wasn't interested in whether or not it was TRUE. He was interested in everyone saying the same thing. Was probably not that hard, for that matter- my Territory Coordinator at the time was parroting the same non-answers as everyone else. ("What God knows, He knows. What God doesn't know, He doesn't know.") I was actually preparing to mail little packets of crackers to people I'd heard parrot that sort of thing if I heard them do it again. (In the case of the Territory guy, he started to back off on the subject and it sounded like he was trying hard not to outright say he completely disagreed with it, so I never did mail it or hand him any. I was delighted.) But that explains why Vince didn't sweat whether it was true, only that everyone got with the party line. If I'd realized that sooner, I'd not have bothered my other attempts to get Vince to think outside the party line (no, I'll leave that one private.)

Next show. This famous show became famous despite having only 39 episodes in the series.

The answer is "Cheers." The successful spinoff was "Frasier." The other was "The Tortellis", which included Dan Hedaya and Jean Kasem as the titular couple (especially her.) Who was the actor who needed help with his lines- was it Coach?

Shirley MacLaine George Raft Red Skelton Norman Fell

That Dan Hedaya sure has a hard time catching a break....

"A worm, with very few exceptions, is NOT a human being." This is "Young Frankenstein." Teri Garr was Inga, Cloris Leachman was Frau Blucher *whinny* , and Kenneth Mars played Inspector Kemp-a character actually from the old Frankenstein movie (in a deleted scene, he says outright the original monster gave him his injuries.) How many times did I see it before I noticed his monocle was worn OVER the eyepatch? :)

Yes. BTW, anyone who wants a quick summary of the main points of that entire transcript, it's simple. I said it before: "Serving people is important for Christians. Therefore, master all three levels of PFAL and serve them that. There are no answers outside the Way Ministry." (The end,) My initial response to it was that this was the closing remarks of a man with an overinflated sense of his organization, and an underinflated sense of all Christians outside that organization.

Since it was hard to find, I thought I'd repost it. Mike insists this was vpw's last public teaching (there's reason to dispute that), and that it's important (and most of us don't take that seriously at all.) It was called "The Joy of Serving." Here's the transcript of "The Joy of Serving", aka "The Joy of Serving Transcript." (Yes, it took me a while to find it, so I'm reposting it off of "OK, Once and For All", page 7, from dmiller.) ====================================================================== The Joy of Serving Transcript ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The Joy of Serving" Dr. V.P. Wierwille May 12, 1985 [song ends "I Am Resolved"]". . . will come to thee." Thank-ya very much. Please be seated. Well it's wonderful seeing you all again on a Sunday night. Really I appreciate your coming in from all over the area -- and I'm sure that Reverend Chris Geer and everybody else does. Most of you know, at least the Corps knows, that Chris and Barbara were my aids for about five years. So, through the years we have been very closely knit together. And, real thankful for their ministry and their dedication. Phil it's [Phylis?] good to see you. (laughter) You got married on me. 's nice. (laughter) Got anything to show for it? (heavy laughter) [pause] Mrs. Wierwille and I will be returning to the s-- United States tomorrow. And so I just wanna, again, thank Chris and Barbara and all the -- st- Corps here and staff and everybody, for -- the exquisite way they took care of us. And how blessed I been just ta be in their presence. [Article from The Way Magazine begins near here.] Since this is the meeting here at this time of country coordinators -- and of course, what I'm going to say should be applicable to every born again believer, but especially to -- our coordinators. I wanted to just share a little bit tonight on the joy of serving. The joy of serving. Number one, you can't serve unless you've got something to serve. So if you are going to serve a dinner, you have to have a dinner to serve, right? Good. If you master the foundational class on Power for Abundant Living, and the intermediate class plus the collateral readings that accompany them, you have really something wonderful to serve people -- with. That twig and twig area leader, and the country coordinators, leadership of the Corps, of the WOWs, have to all have this joy of serving. If you haven't got the joy of serving you missed something in the Word of God you oughta ah-put on. Heh, heh. So, number one, you gotta have something to serve. Number two is love. In Ephesians, chapter five -- verse one: Be ye therefore followers [imitators] of God, as [beloved, or] dear children; Number two: And walk in love, as Christ also [loved you, is the text], and [gave up] himself for [you] an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savour. I'll bet most of ya thought I was going ta read ya first Corinthians thirteen. (laughter) Wouldn't hurt ya to read it sometime again -- and believe what it says. Ha-ha-ha. Then I want you to look at first John, the epistle of first John. Chapter three -- verse sixteen: Hereby perceive we the love of God [and this word "love" is always agapao, or agape], because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. Verse seventeen: But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? Go back to Peter. Flip back a book, first Peter. Chapter two - no, chapter one. Verse twenty two. Seeing ye have purified your souls . . . That's renewed mind, 'cause your soul is not purified when you're born again. It becomes purified as you renew your mind -- according to the Word. purified your souls in obeying the truth [there it is,] through the Spirit unto unfeigned ["unfeigned" is genuine] love of the brethren, see that you love one another with a pure heart fervently: So first, in the joy of serving, you've gotta have something that's joyfully to be served, heh heh, secondly love, and then thirdly service. That's the joy and the order of it. I'll give you the four basic scriptural things relative to service as I know it from the greatness of the Word. Not gonna read these, just going give 'em to ya. I'm gonna read one of 'em with ya. Luke twenty, twenty-two and following; Luke twenty-three, sixteen and following; John thirteen, one and following. [ Luke 20:22ff, Luke 23:16ff, John 13:1ff ] But the one I want to read with you is from the Gospel of Mark. Mark, chapter ten. Verse thirty-five: And James and John [two of the apostles], Sons of Zebedee, [came] unto him [unto Jesus], saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire. (heh, heh, heh) Sounds sort of selfish, doesn't it? (heh, heh) And [Jesus] said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you? They said unto him, Grant us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory. [And] Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can you drink of the cup that I drink of ? baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? It's referring to his death. Thirty-nine: And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized with shall ye be baptized: But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared. Verse forty-one: And when the ten heard it, they began to be much displeased with James and John. [And] Jesus called them to him [all twelve], and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. See the world is just opposite of the teaching of the Scriptures. They exercise lordship over them; and then the great -eh - when he gets higher up on the ladder, then he exercises authority over the top of them too. That's why, so many times, we have heard that money is power. Because money buys people, and then people become the slaves of those who have the money. That's the world. Verse forty-three: But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, [shall be minister -- be your minister -- means minister to you]. See, every twig coordinator ought to know what's happening in his twig, among his people. He ought to know his people very well so he can minister to them. You can't help somebody if you don't know there's a need there. So a twig coordinator really has to get close to his people -- to know. And people are usually hesitant to really tell ya what they need until -- you have earned their respect. And you earn people's respect by serving them the Word of God and loving them -- and then learning to keep your mouth shut. You just -- you just never tell anything; you just help people. Forgot which verse I was -- forty-three: But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: Verse forty-four: And whosoever of you will be the chiefest [the greatest, the toppest], shall be [doulos of all] servant of all. Not just minister but a servant of all, a doulos, -- marked out for just serving people. For even [verse forty-five] the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many And after all of my years, and our years of working with people, I think the joy of service is exactly, in a synopsis form, what I've given you tonight. Number one, you have to take PFAL and master it -- Intermediate, you gotta master it; the collateral's that go with it, you gotta master. Then you've got something to serve people. And then you have to do it with the love of God in the renewed mind, -- agapao. Then your service is just not a ministering service, it is a doulos service, where you are a marked-out slave for serving. And I think this is what has made The Way Ministry so wonderful all over the world, generally speaking, is that we have a lot of the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation among our people and that we are serving our people. So every Twig coordinator, Twig Area, Country, anybody that blesses people, like anybody, even if you are not a Twig coordinator, you ought to master this so you can help somebody in the shop or factory; or wherever you are, so that you got answers for them. Outside of this ministry, people, I've seen very few answers. If we knew where there were more, we'd go get 'em! (laughter) That's right. Heh, heh. I think later on tonight you're gonna hear this old church hymn: O Master, let me walk with Thee In lowly paths of service free; Teach me the wayward feet to stay, And guide them in the homeward way. Teach me Thy patience! still with Thee In closer, dearer company, In work that keeps faith sweet and strong, In trust that triumphs over wrong; In hope that sends a shining ray, Far down the future's broad'ning way, In peace that only Thou canst give, With Thee, O Master, let me live. [The Way Magazine Article ends here.] That was my confirmation verse. Heh, heh -- hymn rather, not verse, hymn. Revelation three-twenty was the verse. Well, way back in March 17th this year we officially opened and dedicated the Word Over The World Auditorium at International Headquarters, that I'm sure a lot of your love and blessing's involved in. And since the opening, we have been making available the Sunday Night teaching fellowships -- Teaching Service, on video tape, as well as audio. But because of the differences in formats used in the United States and used here, most of you have not yet had the opportunity to see a video version of the Sunday Night Services. So Reverend Geer and I discussed this yesterday and felt that you'd be blessed tonight to see the Word Over The World Auditorium and a Sunday Night Service. So, Reverend Geer, you do what you have to do. [Tape ends here]

BTW, bumping this thread probably made Mike think (despite a hundred threads being bumped before this and others after) that people actually wanted to hear his sales pitch again. I can understand if that made someone testy. It's like the person in your mountain-climbing group who JUST HAS TO yodel loudly to see if stories about avalanches are true-not realizing they end up drawing an unthinking flood to the group. Meanwhile, how about a brisk walk around the block and posting friendly, brothers, sisters and distant neighbors?

It was vpw saying people needed to come back to pfal and the collaterals and spend more time with them. It was a freaking commercial.

A) That's why he didn't get far up the ladder. B) That he remains so is proof he didn't get far up the ladder and get more head-shaving.

Technically, IRL, both Swigert and Lovell said something similar, but only Lovell got the line in the movie. Since he's played by Tom Hanks, you've got the correct role identified. (Lovell's actually a fraternity brother of mine, and he spoke to the fraternity about the similarities and differences between what happened and the movie version.)