WordWolf

If pfal was supposedly "theo pneustos" ("God-breathed"), then it would be required to conform to the characteristics of "God-breathed" as defined in pfal itself. The most obvious property it would have to have would be it would be FREE OF ERRORS. We've discussed LISTS of errors in the material before. We carried on active, lively discourses on multiple sides of several issues, and got places. Naturally, the one person who claims it IS-Mike- has categorically REFUSED to discuss ANY of the OBVIOUS ERRORS in pfal. What he did do was refuse to discuss them, claim he had answers and offer varieties of excuse why he would not offer even one, and when someone made a point that made it look like a single error in the stack might not be an error, Mike declared victory and said he knew it all along, taking credit for someone else's work. \ My favorite "it's technically impossible for this NOT to be an error" was when a statement was declared true in the Foundational and its opposite declared true in the Intermediate.

B) The alleged promise was a lie. Supposedly, God Almighty promised He would teach like it hadn't been known since the 1st century AD. If this were true, there would be a complete disconnect with what was being taught and known elsewhere in 1942 EVERYWHERE and what vpw later taught (because we know he taught others.) However, even those who idolize vpw agree that the material he taught was already taught by others. A paper trail can be traced for virtually all the twi material vpw taught. vpw took Leonard's class, and a few months later, taught 100% of the same material. vpw bought Stiles' book, then typed up a book with the contents- later adding the contents of books by Bullinger to flesh it out more. And so on. So, either God Almighty lied when giving this promise, someone else claiming to be God lied and vpw couldn't tell the difference between a lying spirit and God Almighty, or vpw lied and nobody promised him at all. C) The alleged promise was based on ignorance. twi's system shares a trait with the Mikean system- they're both Gnostic systems based on secret knowledge. The twi system-which was vpw's system, set up by him and used by him all the time- was that study of the verses was the key to God (plus the "Law of Believing"),. So, the more you study the verses, the more "godly" you can become, especially if you study it the twi way. We've all seen far too many horror stories of twi "masters" who partly memorized vpw/twi materials and were bigger schmucks if anything. Geer spent hours going over vpw's teachings in between drugging women for vpw to rape and preparing to throw himself over vpw as a human shield if anyone tried to shoot him. But, let's expose the IGNORANCE in the alleged "promise." How DID the 1st century Christian church know God's Word? They knew the Torah/Old Testament. They knew the SPOKEN word, They knew The Word BY EXPERIENCE AND POWER. Think about it. They were getting converts left and right while being a disciple was ILLEGAL and punished by imprisonment, murder, or both. They got LOTS of converts with that going on. No amount of charismatic demagoguery can make up for the risk of being killed or imprisoned. You might get a few disaffected outsiders. They got Saul of Tarsus, former persecutor and murderer of Christians (he didn't put his hand on the knife, but he ordered it done.) Did the Greeks hear good speeches then run out and conclude that their gods walked among them and prepared to offer blood sacrifices? They SAW something. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. However, provide the extraordinary proof, and the claims stop looking extraordinary-at least in comparison to the proof. The 1st century Christians preached-but were known because they had power and could deliver where they spoke. Lots of people preached and didn't get significant converts. Theirs was a pragmatic, direct, power-based ministry. twi was never that. They were study-based, and TALKED ABOUT power lots of times, then considered "Kojacking" a significant witness of "power." 1st century Christians were never centrally-controlled nor organized. twi bore no resemblance to 1st century Christianity except where twi CLAIMED they did. But all the claims don't mean reality matches a claim. The 1st century Christians probably didn't have access to the entire New Testament ANYWHERE. All documents had to be hand-copied. With no printing press and no scanners and PDFs, that was a laborious process and few copies circulated for the 1st century AD (certainly relative to now.) So, twi has NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century." because vpw NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century." vpw might have known that when he phrased the promise he was supposedly given, but he skipped over "Church history". So, he was likely to make such a mistake where God Almighty would not. vpw made up the alleged 1942 promise. and it's easy to show all the errors. There was no such promise. There's no real, sensible reason to laud vpw or "his" books. They don't comrpise "revelation."

I took a poll once. Even when given a chance to do so anonymously, nobody claimed vpw was pure evil. Mike sees it that way, but he has to "creatively reinterpret" what people say until he says they really said the opposite of what they said. He's an old hand at that, since he pulls the same thing with pfal materials. The Orange Book itself contrasts itself with Scripture- but according to Mike, it's Scripture.

The supposition that pfal was of significant long-term benefit hangs primarily on the alleged "1942 promise." That promise, as stated by vpw, was that God spoke audibly to vpw, and promised that God Almighty would teach vpw God's Word ;like it hadn't been known since the first century (AD) if vpw would teach it to others. vpw supposedly asked God to confirm this by a miraculous snowstorm. All right, how many ways can we show this 1942 promise failed? We've done it lots of times before, this is mostly compilation. A) The miraculous snowstorm never happened. There was NO report of actual snow anywhere near where this allegedly happened. When it supposedly happened, he didn't even tell his own wife it happened. Come on, that would have been the first words out of any spouse's mouth that evening. ("Honey, you'll never believe what happened to me today...") He never claimed it until decades later. He couldn't keep the details of the miraculous event straight, even. When he first began making this claim, he said the sky looked BLACK with all the heavy snow. This, BTW, isn't what it looks like for even the heaviest snow. Later-probably because he learned that doesn't happen- he switched to saying the sky was WHITE with snow. I'm sure details can get lost over time, but if a miraculous event that turns the sky all one color, you'd at least remember the color. Finally, this wasn't the only time vpw claimed a miraculous snowstorm. In fact, he did it whenever it was convenient. When he added special significance to the minister's conference where he met Stiles, vpw claimed that the entire city was snowed in completely. He was unable to get out because planes, trains and buses were all stopped due to heavy snow conditions, a blizzard. This was a rather big lie, and one that was checkable. When someone spoke to him about it, he didn't say "I was there and saw the snow and walked in it, check again", he immediately switched his story to prevent trying to contradict the weather report. He immediately began claiming the snow was an angelic apparition- angels made him see snow that wasn't there, and when he phoned transit places, angels answered the phone and lied to him. (He would rather have us think angels lied than that he lied.) In reality, not even a single FLAKE fell from the sky in that city that day, and the temperature didn't reach freezing. This wasn't the last time vpw made up a convenient snowstorm, even. A poster here once noted that vpw was supposed to visit their area. Instead, he phoned and said that he WANTED to fly there, but he was located at a bad snowstorm and he was told it was unsafe. The poster checked the weather in vpw's area at the time, and there was neither snow nor storms predicted. So, the entire snow part was a lie. Without that, there's no 1942 promise. However, even if it was possible for there to have been a snowstorm (it's not possible), the other problems with his story would be enough to discredit it. There WAS no 1942 promise. vpw was NEVER some great one. pfal was NEVER some great class nor great study materials. It was all built up as a con-and not the most secure con, either. It needed lots of outside help to prop it up.

He defends the POS because when it came time for self-actualization, Mike chose to base his entire life around his postulate that pfal is God-Breathed and that vpw was actually doing God's Will. It's what he's got left and it's cost him all the rest. You won't get through because he "doubles down" and "lets it ride" rather than leave the casino with whatever's left in his pocket. And he's proud about that.

Someone suggested (insisted, really) that vpw was not only an athlete, but that he was an exceptional one, part of the tiny handful of people capable of great feats of athleticism. The exact words used previously about this was that he had "an OVERabundance of brains and brawn", and that he was "OVERgifted". and that "when he walked, the earth shook." I'm not going to address the other points at this time. For fun, I thought I'd recap his athletic accomplishments and what they mean and what they don't mean. vpw was on his high school varsity basketball team. The end. THAT was the end of his athletic "career." Oh, but wasn't he a professional ballplayer, and on his college's team, and so on? NO. He later (when he was used to getting away with all sorts of inflated claims) claimed he invented the hook shot (attributed to Lithuanian Pranas Talzunas or Harlem Globetrotter Goose Tatum, among possible others). However, his previous claims are easy to track. He said outright he was on his high school basketball team. He showed photos of that. He later said he "PLAYED BASKETBALL ALL THROUGH COLLEGE." He showed no team photos from college. Did he actually say he was on the team? No, he was deliberately vague-he prevaricated. He phrased it so people could mistakenly think he said he played on his college's varsity team. However, all he said actually was that he played all through college. If he played a game of pick-up once a semester, he "played basketball all through college." ANYBODY could do that if they could move freely around the court, dribble, pass and shoot, even if they could do none of them WELL. vpw was fond of inflating his credentials and claiming everything he had even a questionable right to claim. If he was on the varsity team, he would have said so and shown photos. He didn't even try to claim membership in the JV team. Furthermore, he "was involved with" the Sheboygan Redskins team. Again, people thought that meant he played on the team. Someone even read that claim in "TW:LiL", cited their source, and claimed he played on the team. But their source for that was the sentence where he said he was "involved with" the Sheboygan Redskins. What WAS his association? Did he take them out for ice cream after the games? Was he the waterboy? Did he sweep up after the game? We only know he wasn't actually on the team as a player because someone once went through the roster of the entire history of the team, and his name does not appear ANYWHERE. So, we can either speculate that he was on the team but somehow absent from every record, or we can avoid being unforgivably stupid and accept that he was never on the team and never claimed he was. So, in short, vpw's career as an athlete goes all the way up to high school graduation and ends there, never joining a team or competing at any level. =========================================================== How does that stack up against the general population? I took a poll and started a thread here some years ago, asking about everyone else's levels of involvement. About 40% of GSC posters actually exceeded vpw's athletic achievements, either because they were on the college varsity team, or because they competed NATIONALLY at a sport (i.e, was eligible to be considered for the Olympic team),, and so on. All actual athletes, Including me. *holds up his varsity letter* The percentage of posters who were athletes at least to his level (meaning, high school varsity or higher) jumped into the 60s. That means more than 1/2 the posters who responded were athletes at least to the level of vpw, with most of those exceeding his accomplishments. ========================================================= Those are the actual, record-able participations we're discussing, things a matter of record. In those, vpw was shown to be strictly AVERAGE in athletic accomplishments. What about BEYOND college and tournaments and national competitions? As to that, vpw would be the first to LEAP forward and trumpet his participation and involvement. Yet, we have a tremendous silence on that front. We have him HINTING about a team in college and outside college, but never having the nerve to just outright lie and claim he was on either team. He also never had any anecdotes of athletic accomplishments otherwise. We don't have him claiming he used to preach to the trees then chop down record numbers of them. We never have him claiming to have performed some leaps, swimming, or even hiking accomplishments of any note. (I imagine that somewhere, sometime, he talked about walking while hunting, but I'm talking about LONG walks like a marathon or any size.) What does that leave? vpw's accomplishments-and thus, all measurable yardsticks of his athletic ability- end at high school varsity, and after that vanish into some vague double-talk that never directly claims he was on the college team or any other team. It's all smoke and hot air. Even his own father said he never worked hard on the farm. By any measurable standard, wierwille was average and lukewarm AT BEST, and underperformed almost 1/2 the GSC posters in athletics. Naturally, it's still possible to insist on discarding both the facts and the logic, but that's on the head of the person determined to do exactly that.

I'm impressed they were able to get together a class by 1996. In 1989, twi effectively kicked out 4/5 of its leadership and members, and reduced twi membership in NYC to a ghost town. (Intermediate-class grads became Territory Coordinators of the twigs-worth of people left in the Territory, and so on.) BQSI was no different than the rest, there-in fact, it was quite typical that way.

The answer to both of you, obviously, is of course they do! You can get all the details at the stand set up in the lobby of the theater.

Consider you may be missing their goals. Look at the people who did this. DECADES of PERSONAL involvement in the inner circle of twi, burying the bodies, hiding the truth, silencing truthful dissent, and so on, through decades of decay and stagnation at twi. They only jumped ship now they reached retirement age and had no recourse from twi. This isn't about a lasting group. This is about saying it's a lasting group and saying all the right things while covering a retirement and "running the clock." So long as there's sufficient freewill donations to cover them into the grave, it's all good just as it was all good to cover for the evil of twi for decades while everyone else who saw behind the circle jumped ship, whether from disgust or others with practical concerns. They just need a few hundred to cover expenses and feather their nests a bit while they retire. Oh, and they can talk pious about how NOW they're suddenly remorseful after DECADES and how they don't REALLY want to push for money. Let the money dry up and the message will change overnight.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6c9d86

Warren Has The Answers! As a late Christmas present for the GSC, I present "The Way of Warren Sanchez!" It's in Spanish with English subtitles. I'll be posting a transcript when I can.

It goes fairly well. I'm married, raising a kid, and feeling optimistic about the future- certainly more than a decade or so ago.

Thanks. The writing, at least, is actually somewhat sloppy and could use a little polish. It's good by internet standards but not quite up to publishing standards. As for brains, I've worked hard with what I have, and not everyone can say that. I makes a BIG difference, especially as you get older.

What you "heard" contradicts what vpw said happened, what Mrs w said happened, what both said about him, and what we heard from people who actually met him, interacted with him, and took his class. There's one CONSISTENT account of BGL (really nice guy-which is why vpw got away with what he got away with. Your story crashes hard into what happened. vpw HIMSELF said that he contacted BGL and was told the current class was in progress and not to show up. vpw then showed up and demanded to be let in anyway. BGL let him. Thar's TOTALLY not what vpw said to do with any pfal class, and not what vpw would have done. Sounds like you've constructed a vile, mean version of BGL that didn't exist to try to excuse vpw for being vile and mean. It's part of your "vpw gets a free pass on almost everything because it's all acceptable behavior", which it isn't and never was.

I had the benefit of having had a few months of exposure to the opposing point of view since ROA 88. I then had exposure to ROA 89. So, I was contrasting the two while running a fine-tooth comb over the ROA experience. Seriously- if you were already looking critically at twi when walking in to ROA 89, I'm sure you would have caught a lot of what we caught. BTW, do you remember the "anti-Bible protesters"? Any suspicions that they were 2-3 twi people stationed at the front with placards specifically to look foolish rather than 2-3 people at the front who drove an hour or more to a farm in the middle of nowhere to make a protest specifically against the Bible but not at all against twi with no car parked nearby to take them home when they were done instead of being walking distance to their homes? I bet that's coming back to you now.

Let's see... "lacking depth as do all intellectual inbreedings." We still represent more points of view than just the "praise vpw" "discussions" you prefer. "One is the supremacy of BG Leonard’s class. I heard that on production/market side it sucked, and that BG was an even bigger jerk than VPW. " You heard incorrectly. We heard from people who actually attended it. It was live so it was better "in production" than audio or video of vpw with errors left in. It was meant specifically for ministers and pastors, not the general public. It was meant so ministers and pastors could go bless their congregations. It was not meant as a source of revenue. BGL was a genuinely nice guy, and even vpw said so. He could have thrown vpw out when vpw was told the class was closed, then showed up to insist on being included in a class already in progress. He chose not to. He could have sued vpw when he found out about the plagiarism. but was so serious about Christian not suing Christian (based on the Bible) that he refused to, instead adding notices to his books on how plagiarism was wrong. And all the people who actually worked with him or took his classes said he was nice. "BG could have never marketed his product to the hippies and the baby boomers…. Just never!" It was never about marketing. He aimed his classes at pastors and ministers, to equip them to be better pastors and ministers. He succeeded there. "BG was in great error in that he taught SIT was a gift." He was not in GREAT error because his vocabulary referred to SIT as a gift, but his explanations and instructions all reflected a position that it was not a separate gift (all Christians were automatically entitled to it, etc.) Now, if twi and BGL are correct, this is actually a minor point because the practice taught doesn't reflect the poor vocabulary choice. If twi and BGL are both incorrect because the modern thing is not the SIT used at Pentecost, then he's less bad off than vpw, since BGL spent more time on healing, word of knowledge, etc, and vpw built up 2 whole classes on TIP. "And did you already forget about Oldiesman’s post on VPW admitting in writing that he was not into originality? I see zero references to it, even though I reposted it a few months ago here." Buried about 100 pages into one single book advertising twi which was never a collateral reading (The Way-Living in Love) was vpw's off-hand comment that "Nothing I do is original" and claimed his originality was in putting the class together. Anyone except someone desperate to exonerate vpw of rampant plagiarism would say that was nothing like an admission. He certainly never said that Leonard's class was the exact same class vpw taught, in every particular, a few months after taking BGL's class. THAT would have been an admission of something. It's a non-issue, because it wasn't an admission of anything, and WAS an evasion about the class already having been put together-which it had been. We've mentioned this lots of times, but someone around here forgets lots of stuff and doesn't admit it. ========================================== For those who arrived late to the party, this was Mike. Some of Mike's posts have contained the following: that vpw had an "OVERABUNDANCE of brains and brawn" and was "OVERgifted." When Jesus returns, he will have a copy of the Orange Book in his hands and be teaching you from it. He wasn't joking either. "Quite serious. I've seen him this way several times." He thinks the Bible is inaccurate, but has called the written pfal materials and twi materials "GOD-BREATHED." I swear, I'm neither making this up, nor exaggerating, nor changing his meaning by removing relevant context.

What was the use of going to fellowships at all? TO YOU, not much. It was meant to be a revenue and advertising source that benefited twi. Since it was in homes, there was zero costs. It brought in donations, taught tithing, and advertised twi's books, tapes, and classes, all of which were organized to turn a profit. So, they wanted you to show up. advertise for twi stuff, pay money, and go home. Actually helping you wasn't good for twi's bottom line. twi was never an actual ministry, it's always been a business designed to turn a profit. Other Christians might be concerned with a prophet, but to twi, there's only profit.

On the subject of pat answers, it's disgraceful for so-called leaders to rely on them like twi mandates/mandated. They are sloppy, lazy, and don't help people as much as silence people. But, it started from the top. pfal: vpw quoted the question "If God is All-Powerful, can He make a rock so big he can't lift it?" His answer in the class-which he had time to prepare, was "God is All-Knowing. He wouldn't DO a stupid thing like that." That's a pat answer and doesn't address the question. Maybe 2 years in (3 tops), I phrased my answer to that question. "God is Spirit (John 4:24), and a spirit doesn't have flesh and bones (Luke 24:39). So, the error is in thinking God has a body to lift with in the first place." Raf followed up by addressing how the question supposes 2 numbers with the value of infinity, with one number supposedly of a greater value of infinity. That's MATHEMATICALLY impossible, so the question makes no sense since it doesn't even work on paper. We were teenagers with little twi background and we had better answers than vpw. He was lazy and preferred pat answers. We were not and we did not.

As much as any human can be said to base decisions on logic, I left twi based on logic and personal observation. (I went to ROA 89 to see things personally before making any decision, so I had both sides represented.) I hardly think I was the ONLY person who did, although I imagine many did not. Social organizations work for several reasons, depending on the organization. If they don't serve social needs, they collapse or wither away, So, yes, making people feel unwelcome will drive off newcomers and chase off old-timers. And yes, like twi's been doing for decades.

Nicely summarized.

Technically speaking, I'd expect more than one sociologist says that, so technically "sociologists" say that. It's the brainchild of Dr Morris Massey, Sociologist, marketing professor, and maker of training videos. His statements just happen to make it easier to sell his training videos. (Useful to the hypnotherapist in the link, also-good for drumming up business.) When stripped of mysticism, the idea is simple-which is why it's not a cornerstone of PSYCHOLOGY (the study of the individual). (The man's degree was in sociology, which addresses the motivation of GROUPS- for which I have a respect but I accept the limitations of the field as I accept the limitations of Psychology.) As we all live, things happen. When some of those things happen, we have a moment to reflect, a moment to have an "aha", a moment to have a moment of clarity, under any of a number of names long preceding this guy. ANYTHING can trigger this, so long as it gets us thinking (or reacting), and it doesn't have to look significant to others to do so, provided we actually thinking (or reacting.) The moment where people get sick and tired of being sick and tired is one. In the parable of the prodigal son, there was no "instant" thing, but the youth had such a moment while doing his manual labor- that he was better off starting over than continuing what he was doing. But change doesn't have to be preceded by UPHEAVAL or anything dramatic. For many people, upheavals or dramatic changes CAN result in thinking, but that's not an equation. Most people tend to keep moving forward without a lot of self-reflection unless something changes-THEN they look around and think. Not everyone needs an "event" except in the most technical sense that tortures the meaning of the word ("I was pouring milk on my cornflakes one morning when it hit me...") Not everyone needs it to be "emotional", but things that can affect the emotion are more likely to get the attention of the average schmoe. And "significant", as I said, is HIGHLY subjective. Living through the tumult of a 9/11 may produce no "significant" emotional event for someone and they go on as they did before, while waiting at a traffic light may produce the moment. It's neither a cornerstone of Psychology (which studies these things) nor Sociology (which does not any more than, say, Linguistics does) that adults NEED some sort of tumult to change "big things in their lives." Some people may just keep plodding along until something big grabs their attention or prevents the usual, but that's no guarantee. Changing beliefs and changing support networks can change based on logic-and they certainly don't need upheavals to change. Granted, some people DO change after those. However, some people leave a burning building because they're carried out- and some just walk out or run clear. Not everyone will need to be carried out just because that's how SOME leave the building.

Technically, there's more details, but most people need to know the Titanic sank after hitting an iceberg, not the name of the helmsman when it struck, or who was in charge of the lifeboats, and so on. There's a lot of little things that happened (not so little if they happened to you), and you might want to read around about some of them. Or you may not because it's not worth it to you. Either way, feel free to stick around!

The first usage of the word "remnant" in the KJV is Exodus 26:12. There it actually speaks of cloth. "12 And the remnant that remaineth of the curtains of the tent, the half curtain that remaineth, shall hang over the backside of the tabernacle." Strong's specifies that the word translated "and the remnant" here means, literally, "a redundancy." In other words, it's the extra cloth that isn't needed. According to the pfal system of things, the first usage of a word has special significance to its usage all through Scripture. "the best part of a piece of clothing" is FAR from what the usage is "in the Biblical sense." In fact, Biblically, it's almost the opposite from the beginning, it's left over after the job is done. twi's job has been done. It's "faithful remnant" are the people left over after it's been made redundant by hundreds of Christian groups who get the job done better.

In the Bible, almost all the references in the KJV to the word "remnant" are specifically referring to Israel. In fact, the NT only uses the word six times. In Matthew 22:6, it's used in a parable about the kingdom of heaven. The remnant REJECTED the kingdom. In Romans 9:27, it specifies it speaks of a remnant OF ISRAEL. In Romans 11:5, it's in a whole passage talking about ISRAEL. In Revelation 11:13, it's a bit ambiguous who it's referring to (i.e., are they part of those who tortured the 2 prophets, etc.) In Revelation 12:17 it's positive. In Revelation 19:21, it's NEGATIVE- Jesus slays the remnant of the worshipers of the beast and false prophet, wiping them out.

You forgot "Laverne & Shirlley." Plus the cartoons of "Fonz And the Happy Days Gang" , and "Laverne & Shirley Join the Army."