WordWolf

Waxit, a "productive discussion" must be both "productive" and a "discussion." To "discuss", each of us has to listen to the POV of the others, and probably get something out of it, whether big or small. We have to acknowledge that we are ALL trying to communicate, and are entitled to courtesy, and, at least here, a chance to be heard. To know if it's possible to have a "productive conversation", we need to know if the participants are really willing to converse. If one or more are just interested in advertising, mudslinging, trolling, or insulting, then we can't really have any kind of "conversation." It really sounds like you're disinterested in anyone here- except as an AUDIENCE or as someone to AGREE WITH YOU automatically. We're often open to changing positions, but only if the other side makes more sense than our own, not just because someone insists they're right, or insists they know what God wants, or insists they're right because they have great conviction. If you really want to change minds here, you'd actually have to DISCUSS and CONVERSE. Stop and ask yourself if you're really ready to do that, please.

"Got in a little hometown jam So they put a rifle in my hand. Sent me off to a foreign land To go and kill the yellow man." "Come back home to the refinery. Hiring man says, "Son if it was up to me" Went down to see my V.A. man. He said "Son, don't you understand?"" "I had a brother at Khe Sanh, fighting off the Viet Cong. They're still there, he's all gone. He had a woman he loved in Saigon. I got a picture of him in her arms now. Down in the shadow of the penitentiary, Out by the gas fires of the refinery. I'm ten years burning down the road. Nowhere to run ain't got nowhere to go."

[Ok, Pagan Warrior's experience seems to have been in the UK, which means his accounts are going to be from there. ] "Like all sects and cults The Way International as it was known then were always preoccupied with money. As far as their P.F.A.L class was concerned what the members never revealed was that they had to get a minimum of class takers for their personal furtherance, and that was to join what was called the Way Corps which was based in the States." [Perhaps that's what happened in the UK. In the US, vpw was preoccupied with money, but the way corps were not, as a whole. While it was true that they always wanted the most people possible for a pfal class, in the US at least, it wasn't because they were getting "a taste of the gate" (keeping some of the enrollment fee). In the beginning, before the tapes were widely distributed, small groups got an audio class and flip-charts, and large groups got the film class. Another issue was number of people committing to show up versus number of people who show up versus number of people who finished. Like everywhere else, the number of commitments never matched the number of attendees. I once did something completely unrelated, and 30 people said they'd DEFINITELY be there. Including myself, 10 people showed up. I got one last-minute cancellation, and one after-the-fact apology, and the rest said nothing. So, yes, people can be unreliable. On top of that was people who decided not to take pfal at the last minute, or stop taking it. When I took it in the US, 8 people were "committed", as in, paid for it. 7 of us showed up to Session 1. 3 of us showed up to Session 12- myself, a coordinator's kid, and a different coordinator's wife. But, in the US at least, I don't think people were trying to get bigger classes for personal gain. Everyone I saw seemed to genuinely think the students would benefit from "the class" and volunteered homes, time, and so on with that in mind. I've seen people give new Bibles to new students who didn't have one, or offer to pay the entire class fee just so someone they barely knew could take it. But it would not surprise me if other countries' programs didn't have people who had to jump through more hoops and didn't have more to prove to twi's HQ.]//b] "The sad thing was that certain of the members were vulnerable and were bereft of any free thinking or minds of their own, in other words they were totally brainwashed with twisted Bible scriptures. The Way members were so manipulative that they would convince their followers that if they wanted to leave the organisation they were being influenced by the devil." [Yes, official twi doctrine was that people who CONSIDERED leaving were under demonic influence, even though it wasn't written down anywhere. It was widespread enough that it was common knowledge, and sprang from something vpw said in pfal class, where Eve's first error in the Garden was to listen, and her second error was to consider. So, listening to things contrary to twi doctrine was considered equivalent, likewise considering contrary to twi doctrine....since vpw was pushing that pfal and twi doctrine were essentially given from God like the Bible.] "The truth is that this organisation was devoid of all reality, and the members would believe their own doctrines which were way off the path." [Certainly, the higher in twi you got, the less it reflected reality, and a lot of people really believed what they were taught and/or were teaching.]

This song was big enough that a sitting President wanted to use it in his re-election campaign. Seriously, you've heard this song.

Hello, PW. I hope you enjoy your stay here. Um, I meant, that if you hadn't read other people's posts here, that reading them now would be a nice surprise since we've broken down a lot of faulty twi practices, faulty twi doctrines, and so on. We don't mind you posting here, but please read around as well.

It's interesting to me how vpw switched twi from TFI- which was safe- to the in-house LEAD program that put people in physical danger and people came out of it thankful to be alive sometimes, and badly hurt some other times. A nice class-action suit could have been leveled at twi for failing its fiduciary responsibilities and endangering participants. But for vpw, having total control over the thing was more important that injuries or even a body count. He also poo-poo'ed complaints of women who got raped when LEAD forced them to hitch-hike. He said they could have gotten raped anywhere- which is a scary response to having your program put women in situations that facilitated their assaults and rapes.

If he hasn't done so yet, he has a nice surprise ahead of him, since that's the primary reason this board exists.

One last try. Different song, same artist. "I had a brother at Khe Sanh, fighting off the Viet Cong. They're still there, he's all gone. He had a woman he loved in Saigon. I got a picture of him in her arms now. Down in the shadow of the penitentiary, Out by the gas fires of the refinery. I'm ten years burning down the road. Nowhere to run ain't got nowhere to go."

Their bodies and minds.......let's not forget their wallets and their stuff while he was at it. vpw wanted retention because he taught a 10% tithe- and pushed it with a mandatory book with pfal ("Christians Should Be Prosperous.") He wanted that 10%. Then he wanted more- and invented the term "abundant sharing" for giving OVER the 10%. Then he wanted even MORE. He taught that people should figure out what they needed to live on, and the rest they should.....invest? Plan for the future? NO- they should give that to twi! He invented the term "plurality giving". Ever heard of a group other than twi/ex-twi who ever taught that, by any name? I haven't. Oh, and twi was supposed to skimp on buying anything for the group and make due with used furniture and stuff. This policy stopped suddenly when it came to things vpw wanted. Those things were supposed to be top-notch. AND vpw considered them HIS property and not, as they legally were- MINISTRY property. So, some of the ministry stuff was earmarked for his personal use, and he considered it HIS although it was all paid for and maintained on the twi dime. Oh, and if he visited your area, someone was supposed to go buy him bottleS (plural) of booze. And before he left, they passed the hat around and handed him a bag of nice, untraceable money- any guesses where they got the idea to do that? As for their bodies, yes, join twi programs, do manual labor and PAY FOR THE PRIVILEGE. He didn't get FREE labor- he got labor that paid to be there! I have to admire the chutzpah that took. And look forward to him getting his due for every last bit of exploitation (the worst of which I didn't mention.)

That's it. Your turn.

That's odd, since that last song is reasonably famous, and was a big hit at the time. (No, I didn't hide a clue just now.)

Not giving the artist's name, but I posted most of the song now, in response. Someone seriously proposed that New Jersey adopt this song as their state song. In case it wasn't obvious, the last few songs were all by the same artist, and all got plenty of airplay. (And I'm posting them in order of increasing popularity. This song is definitely well-known.) AFAIK, in their genre, all 3 still get airplay.

"In the day we sweat it out on the streets of a runaway American dream At night we ride through mansions of glory in suicide machines Sprung from cages out on Highway 9 Chrome-wheeled, fuel-injected, and steppin' out over the line Oh, baby, this town rips the bones from your back It's a death trap, it's a suicide rap We gotta get out while we're young." "Wendy, let me in, I wanna be your friend I wanna guard your dreams and visions. Just wrap your legs 'round these velvet rims And strap your hands 'cross my engines. Together we could break this trap We'll run 'til we drop, baby, we'll never go back. Oh, will you walk with me out on the wire? 'Cause, baby, I'm just a scared and lonely rider But I gotta know how it feels. I wanna know if love is wild Babe, I want to know if love is real." "Beyond the Palace, hemi-powered drones scream down the boulevard. Girls comb their hair in rear-view mirrors, and the boys try to look so hard. The amusement park rises bold and stark, kids are huddled on the beach in a mist I wanna die with you, Wendy, on the streets tonight in an everlasting kiss." "The highway's jammed with broken heroes on a last-chance power drive. Everybody's out on the run tonight, but there's no place left to hide. Together, Wendy, we can live with the sadness I'll love you with all the madness in my soul. Oh, someday, girl, I don't know when We're gonna get to that place where we really wanna go And we'll walk in the sun But 'til then tramps like us"

It's sort-of a sequel. It's not labeled as one, but it can easily be considered a sequel. AFAIK, it takes place afterwards with at least 1 character from the previous movie. Just don't kill yourself trying to remember the name.

BZZT ! Can't link from Top Secret to Peter Cushing to Top Secret. You do, however, know 2 other movies he was in, judging from your last post.

"Beyond the Palace, hemi-powered drones scream down the boulevard. Girls comb their hair in rear-view mirrors, and the boys try to look so hard. The amusement park rises bold and stark, kids are huddled on the beach in a mist. I wanna die with you, Wendy, on the streets tonight in an everlasting kiss." "The highway's jammed with broken heroes on a last-chance power drive. Everybody's out on the run tonight, but there's no place left to hide. Together, Wendy, we can live with the sadness I'll love you with all the madness in my soul. Oh, someday, girl, I don't know when, We're gonna get to that place where we really wanna go And we'll walk in the sun But 'til then tramps like us"

Margot Robbie Viola Davis Cara Delevingne Jared Leto Will Smith Ben Affleck

Correct!

Animated shows. Answer either to take the round. A) "It stinks!" B) "SPOON!"

Margot Robbie Viola Davis Cara Delevingne

Ok, same artist again, different song. "Beyond the Palace, hemi-powered drones scream down the boulevard. Girls comb their hair in rear-view mirrors, and the boys try to look so hard. The amusement park rises bold and stark, kids are huddled on the beach in a mist. I wanna die with you, Wendy, on the streets tonight in an everlasting kiss."

"Leave now? In our moment of triumph? I think you severely overestimate their chances!"

I was introduced to him as a kid, since he was in a very famous movie in the 1970s. He's been in at least 2 more that I know of, one of which was "Top Secret!" The other has no other actors of renown. ("The Beast Must Die!", a werewolf whodunit, complete with a pause to let you try to guess the killer before the movie shows you.)

"Now, I know your mama, she don't like me, 'cause I play in a rock and roll band. And I know your daddy, he don't dig me, but he never did understand. Your papa lowered the boom, he locked you in your room-- I'm comin' to lend a hand. I'm comin' to liberate you, confiscate you, I want to be your man. Someday we'll look back on this and it will all seem funny. But now you're sad, your mama's mad And your papa says he knows that I don't have any money Your papa says he knows that I don't have any money Oh, your daddy says he knows that I don't have any money. Well, tell him this is his last chance to get his daughter in a fine romance- 'Cause a record company, Rosie, just gave me a big advance!"