WordWolf

I'm following this thread now. To prevent a "dogpiling" situation, I'll let Rocky ask all the obvious questions so Waxit has one person to answer, instead of having to chase questions all over the thread from different people. In the interest of being nice, I'm posting mainly to post a request. Waxit? Please be careful when hitting " reply" on a post. I much prefer if you don't reply INSIDE THE BOX where their post is quoted. If you do, there's 2 problems for the rest of us. 1) We can't see a difference between what HE posted and what YOU posted. This means we can't tell who posted what, nor who to reply to. That makes discussion more difficult, and it makes it harder to follow your points (since we can't distinguish them from HIS points.) 2) When everything you post ends up in that box, none of us can use the same function to reply to you! The reply function would quote an empty post- since the software thinks everything inside a quotebox is part of the quote and none of it is added. Please make good-faith attempts to make it clear who is posting what. There's several things you can do to make that happen. A) Under the quotebox, post your reply. You might add numbers to the quote, and number your replies so we can see what addressed what. B) Use the quotebox, but then cut-and-paste their reply below the box, and reply to each point. Use quotation marks so we can see it's a quote, and mark what was said by you and what was said by him. That's what I think of first, others may think other things work better. Please, please do something to address this. Thank you.

Um, "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest?"

Spitballing here....."Johnny Depp????"

I'll leave this up for a few more hours, and see if anybody's going to actually make a guess- wild or otherwise- on the titles of any of those songs;. You already know the artist, so there should at least be one or possibly 2 wild guesses, which would hit 2 of the songs I used.

I've been told that many youths traveled by hitchhiking at the time. That doesn't change the fact that it was ILLEGAL to do so. vpw REQUIRED it. His excuses included using it to witness to people, and teaching them to believe. Those are EXCUSES. The real reason, obviously, was that it was a FREE method to get the students places. vpw was perfectly fine with free when possible- even when that put people in physical danger. When people were assaulted from hitchhiking, when they were injured from climbing dangerously at the direction of leaders of the climb, when they were injured traveling to and fro at unsafe speeds because they were required to do so- it was considered THEIR FAULT because they MAGICALLY FAILED TO BELIEVE AWAY the danger vpw and his programs PUT THEM IN. Excuses have been made, but those running a program have a legal responsibility (a fiduciary responsibility) to ensure the required parts of their program are as safe as can reasonably be expected. Participants in Christian education programs can REASONABLY expect not to be in danger from rapes, falling off cliffs or losing toes due to frostbite, or car crashes because the required time requires unsafe speeds in an unsafe vehicle not legal to use to transport people. In twi, each of these things happened, and twi was to be kept clear of blame, and the leadership clear of blame- despite all of those being THEIR FAULT. And when things that HAD HAPPENED were brought to vpw's attention (like rapes), he blew off the reasonable concerns of other women who didn't want to be put in that sort of risk. And to some people to this day, vpw and others are STILL not to be blamed for requiring practices that put people in danger. One poster has been in physical therapy for DECADES because his LEAD group was required to exceed the legal speed limit, during heavy winds, while most of the group was pulled behind a truck in a MAKESHIFT hitch (professional hitches and actual vehicles with seat-belts cost MONEY, you know, so, can't use those), and when one of the heavy crosswinds hit the trailer hitch, the entire rig flipped over. For those not paying attention.... -They were required to exceed the legal speed limit. -They were required to squeeze in Corps evaluations WHILE DRIVING. -They were required to drive in heavy winds WHILE above the speed limit. -They were required to travel- not in a vehicle with seat- belts, air bags, or anything else- but rather stuffed in a trailer hitch put together by twi people. All of that led to the vehicle and trailer flipping over in heavy winds, causing long-term injuries to the passengers in the truck and the trailer, requiring DECADES of physical therapy. I've been told not to blame vpw or twi for any of those REQUIREMENTS being the DIRECT CAUSE or CONTRIBUTING FACTOR to the actual crash. I think anyone who still thinks that could probably use some professional help.

"Born down in a dead man's town". The first kick I took was when I hit the ground. You end up like a dog that's been beat too much Till you spend half your life just covering up." "Got in a little hometown jam So they put a rifle in my hand. Sent me off to a foreign land To go and kill the yellow man." "Come back home to the refinery. Hiring man says, "Son if it was up to me" Went down to see my V.A. man. He said "Son, don't you understand?"" "I had a brother at Khe Sanh, fighting off the Viet Cong. They're still there, he's all gone. He had a woman he loved in Saigon. I got a picture of him in her arms now. Down in the shadow of the penitentiary, Out by the gas fires of the refinery. I'm ten years burning down the road. Nowhere to run ain't got nowhere to go."

Pagan Warrior: "WordWolf basically I would like to say that my comments are those of an observer to record things and events as they were, not to be one-sided or vindictive. I will be reading the contributions of others." [Cool. We welcome people posting what they observed, in case it didn't sound like that's what I was thinking. There's hundreds and hundreds of pages about twi, its doctrines, its practices, etc.] PW: "The Way International G.B. had a hugely American influence, and in the late 1970's early 1980's had a very large following in the U.K." A "very large following in the UK" is news to me, but I wasn't there in the late 70s nor early 80s, so I wouldn't know. The hugely American influence was because vpw was narcissistic and wanted everything HIS way, and that was impressed on the corps wherever they went. So, it got inflicted on the UK that way.] PW: " The Way International was never going to be accepted by the accepted circle of christian denominations, and there were many reasons for this." [Now, THERE'S an understatement, if anything is. ;) Being run by a plagiarizing rapist could have been one of the reasons, but there were so many reasons to choose from! ] PW: " All churches have a collection policy but they would never ever emotionally blackmail anyone to hand over money. The truth is in any religion you do not have to pay to receive spiritual salvation, and you are free to come and go without any pressure. Other churches and religious gatherings do not encourage their followers to alienate themselves from society." [Few of us would consider religious organizations perfect, but we tend to agree they at least TRY to get there. twi, on the other hand, was founded and run by a guy who wanted everyone's money, and to have them as slave labor and sex toys whenever it suited him. Oh, and to massage his ego. All of that suggests a different approach than most churches- which have goals very different from that.] PW: "The observations which I have recorded here hardly scraped the surface." [They would hardly scratch the surface among what's been exposed here, too. However, this is certainly the right place to shine a light on their dark deeds, and you're welcome to do so. Enjoy your stay. Have some tea if the coffee here isn't to your liking. :) ]

Waxit, a "productive discussion" must be both "productive" and a "discussion." To "discuss", each of us has to listen to the POV of the others, and probably get something out of it, whether big or small. We have to acknowledge that we are ALL trying to communicate, and are entitled to courtesy, and, at least here, a chance to be heard. To know if it's possible to have a "productive conversation", we need to know if the participants are really willing to converse. If one or more are just interested in advertising, mudslinging, trolling, or insulting, then we can't really have any kind of "conversation." It really sounds like you're disinterested in anyone here- except as an AUDIENCE or as someone to AGREE WITH YOU automatically. We're often open to changing positions, but only if the other side makes more sense than our own, not just because someone insists they're right, or insists they know what God wants, or insists they're right because they have great conviction. If you really want to change minds here, you'd actually have to DISCUSS and CONVERSE. Stop and ask yourself if you're really ready to do that, please.

"Got in a little hometown jam So they put a rifle in my hand. Sent me off to a foreign land To go and kill the yellow man." "Come back home to the refinery. Hiring man says, "Son if it was up to me" Went down to see my V.A. man. He said "Son, don't you understand?"" "I had a brother at Khe Sanh, fighting off the Viet Cong. They're still there, he's all gone. He had a woman he loved in Saigon. I got a picture of him in her arms now. Down in the shadow of the penitentiary, Out by the gas fires of the refinery. I'm ten years burning down the road. Nowhere to run ain't got nowhere to go."

[Ok, Pagan Warrior's experience seems to have been in the UK, which means his accounts are going to be from there. ] "Like all sects and cults The Way International as it was known then were always preoccupied with money. As far as their P.F.A.L class was concerned what the members never revealed was that they had to get a minimum of class takers for their personal furtherance, and that was to join what was called the Way Corps which was based in the States." [Perhaps that's what happened in the UK. In the US, vpw was preoccupied with money, but the way corps were not, as a whole. While it was true that they always wanted the most people possible for a pfal class, in the US at least, it wasn't because they were getting "a taste of the gate" (keeping some of the enrollment fee). In the beginning, before the tapes were widely distributed, small groups got an audio class and flip-charts, and large groups got the film class. Another issue was number of people committing to show up versus number of people who show up versus number of people who finished. Like everywhere else, the number of commitments never matched the number of attendees. I once did something completely unrelated, and 30 people said they'd DEFINITELY be there. Including myself, 10 people showed up. I got one last-minute cancellation, and one after-the-fact apology, and the rest said nothing. So, yes, people can be unreliable. On top of that was people who decided not to take pfal at the last minute, or stop taking it. When I took it in the US, 8 people were "committed", as in, paid for it. 7 of us showed up to Session 1. 3 of us showed up to Session 12- myself, a coordinator's kid, and a different coordinator's wife. But, in the US at least, I don't think people were trying to get bigger classes for personal gain. Everyone I saw seemed to genuinely think the students would benefit from "the class" and volunteered homes, time, and so on with that in mind. I've seen people give new Bibles to new students who didn't have one, or offer to pay the entire class fee just so someone they barely knew could take it. But it would not surprise me if other countries' programs didn't have people who had to jump through more hoops and didn't have more to prove to twi's HQ.]//b] "The sad thing was that certain of the members were vulnerable and were bereft of any free thinking or minds of their own, in other words they were totally brainwashed with twisted Bible scriptures. The Way members were so manipulative that they would convince their followers that if they wanted to leave the organisation they were being influenced by the devil." [Yes, official twi doctrine was that people who CONSIDERED leaving were under demonic influence, even though it wasn't written down anywhere. It was widespread enough that it was common knowledge, and sprang from something vpw said in pfal class, where Eve's first error in the Garden was to listen, and her second error was to consider. So, listening to things contrary to twi doctrine was considered equivalent, likewise considering contrary to twi doctrine....since vpw was pushing that pfal and twi doctrine were essentially given from God like the Bible.] "The truth is that this organisation was devoid of all reality, and the members would believe their own doctrines which were way off the path." [Certainly, the higher in twi you got, the less it reflected reality, and a lot of people really believed what they were taught and/or were teaching.]

This song was big enough that a sitting President wanted to use it in his re-election campaign. Seriously, you've heard this song.

Hello, PW. I hope you enjoy your stay here. Um, I meant, that if you hadn't read other people's posts here, that reading them now would be a nice surprise since we've broken down a lot of faulty twi practices, faulty twi doctrines, and so on. We don't mind you posting here, but please read around as well.

It's interesting to me how vpw switched twi from TFI- which was safe- to the in-house LEAD program that put people in physical danger and people came out of it thankful to be alive sometimes, and badly hurt some other times. A nice class-action suit could have been leveled at twi for failing its fiduciary responsibilities and endangering participants. But for vpw, having total control over the thing was more important that injuries or even a body count. He also poo-poo'ed complaints of women who got raped when LEAD forced them to hitch-hike. He said they could have gotten raped anywhere- which is a scary response to having your program put women in situations that facilitated their assaults and rapes.

If he hasn't done so yet, he has a nice surprise ahead of him, since that's the primary reason this board exists.

One last try. Different song, same artist. "I had a brother at Khe Sanh, fighting off the Viet Cong. They're still there, he's all gone. He had a woman he loved in Saigon. I got a picture of him in her arms now. Down in the shadow of the penitentiary, Out by the gas fires of the refinery. I'm ten years burning down the road. Nowhere to run ain't got nowhere to go."

Their bodies and minds.......let's not forget their wallets and their stuff while he was at it. vpw wanted retention because he taught a 10% tithe- and pushed it with a mandatory book with pfal ("Christians Should Be Prosperous.") He wanted that 10%. Then he wanted more- and invented the term "abundant sharing" for giving OVER the 10%. Then he wanted even MORE. He taught that people should figure out what they needed to live on, and the rest they should.....invest? Plan for the future? NO- they should give that to twi! He invented the term "plurality giving". Ever heard of a group other than twi/ex-twi who ever taught that, by any name? I haven't. Oh, and twi was supposed to skimp on buying anything for the group and make due with used furniture and stuff. This policy stopped suddenly when it came to things vpw wanted. Those things were supposed to be top-notch. AND vpw considered them HIS property and not, as they legally were- MINISTRY property. So, some of the ministry stuff was earmarked for his personal use, and he considered it HIS although it was all paid for and maintained on the twi dime. Oh, and if he visited your area, someone was supposed to go buy him bottleS (plural) of booze. And before he left, they passed the hat around and handed him a bag of nice, untraceable money- any guesses where they got the idea to do that? As for their bodies, yes, join twi programs, do manual labor and PAY FOR THE PRIVILEGE. He didn't get FREE labor- he got labor that paid to be there! I have to admire the chutzpah that took. And look forward to him getting his due for every last bit of exploitation (the worst of which I didn't mention.)

That's it. Your turn.

That's odd, since that last song is reasonably famous, and was a big hit at the time. (No, I didn't hide a clue just now.)

Not giving the artist's name, but I posted most of the song now, in response. Someone seriously proposed that New Jersey adopt this song as their state song. In case it wasn't obvious, the last few songs were all by the same artist, and all got plenty of airplay. (And I'm posting them in order of increasing popularity. This song is definitely well-known.) AFAIK, in their genre, all 3 still get airplay.

"In the day we sweat it out on the streets of a runaway American dream At night we ride through mansions of glory in suicide machines Sprung from cages out on Highway 9 Chrome-wheeled, fuel-injected, and steppin' out over the line Oh, baby, this town rips the bones from your back It's a death trap, it's a suicide rap We gotta get out while we're young." "Wendy, let me in, I wanna be your friend I wanna guard your dreams and visions. Just wrap your legs 'round these velvet rims And strap your hands 'cross my engines. Together we could break this trap We'll run 'til we drop, baby, we'll never go back. Oh, will you walk with me out on the wire? 'Cause, baby, I'm just a scared and lonely rider But I gotta know how it feels. I wanna know if love is wild Babe, I want to know if love is real." "Beyond the Palace, hemi-powered drones scream down the boulevard. Girls comb their hair in rear-view mirrors, and the boys try to look so hard. The amusement park rises bold and stark, kids are huddled on the beach in a mist I wanna die with you, Wendy, on the streets tonight in an everlasting kiss." "The highway's jammed with broken heroes on a last-chance power drive. Everybody's out on the run tonight, but there's no place left to hide. Together, Wendy, we can live with the sadness I'll love you with all the madness in my soul. Oh, someday, girl, I don't know when We're gonna get to that place where we really wanna go And we'll walk in the sun But 'til then tramps like us"

It's sort-of a sequel. It's not labeled as one, but it can easily be considered a sequel. AFAIK, it takes place afterwards with at least 1 character from the previous movie. Just don't kill yourself trying to remember the name.

BZZT ! Can't link from Top Secret to Peter Cushing to Top Secret. You do, however, know 2 other movies he was in, judging from your last post.

"Beyond the Palace, hemi-powered drones scream down the boulevard. Girls comb their hair in rear-view mirrors, and the boys try to look so hard. The amusement park rises bold and stark, kids are huddled on the beach in a mist. I wanna die with you, Wendy, on the streets tonight in an everlasting kiss." "The highway's jammed with broken heroes on a last-chance power drive. Everybody's out on the run tonight, but there's no place left to hide. Together, Wendy, we can live with the sadness I'll love you with all the madness in my soul. Oh, someday, girl, I don't know when, We're gonna get to that place where we really wanna go And we'll walk in the sun But 'til then tramps like us"

Margot Robbie Viola Davis Cara Delevingne Jared Leto Will Smith Ben Affleck