WordWolf

Next song. " 'I'm happy. Hope you're happy, too. I've loved. All I've needed: love. Sordid details following.'"

First off, if you're trying to get someone to settle their differences with somebody else, shouldn't you try to get them to confront their demons, face-to-face? [This site is more about all the survivors OF those who held the microphone. Those who held the microphone have had plenty of chances to speak up. The GSC gave/gives a voice to those whose voice was stolen. However, the former and present leaders, as well as former and current members, are welcome to post here. People are free to use their own names as well as pseudonyms. A few of them HAVE posted here under pseudonyms. Ever consider how a screen-name protects THEM? They can post of their experiences and their thoughts with nobody judging them- other than by the content of their posts. JAL, however, has flatly refused to participate directly. He's elected to send messages to go-betweens to post them. In one case, the short version was "it's me, I'm not going to post here, but you can buy my new books at the following location...." In a later case, he left a note that HINTED at this messageboard without naming it. At no point will JAL participate in this or any OTHER messageboard, since he can't squelch dissent and shut down disagreement. He's said he will only dialogue with people BY PHONE. Thoae who took him up on it were subjected to advertisements for his stuff disguised as phonecalls. So, JAL will not dialogue with anyone under ANY circumstances. ] The former Way leaders who often get trashed on this forum by people identifying themselves as, "T-Bone", or "Mickey Mouse" probably wouldn't be too inclined to come here on the Internet if all the criticisms are from a one-way street when they have absolutely no clue who you guys are behind your pseudonyms. [They also won't answer those who use their real names. As for me, all my authority stems from me posting things that make sense. Any poster here can say the same. Besides, for them, it's never been about people being anonymous, it's about controlling the discussion. Ever hear of "Family Tables"? An active wayfer made up his own messageboard. When a few people signed up who were not innies, they POLITELY disagreed with something. He promptly deleted their POSTS and their ACCOUNTS. He then added elaborate rules where anyone signing up had to be twi insiders. A short time later, twi got wind of the messageboard, and leaned on him to close it down. The CES/STFI messageboard was also shut down by the people who put it up. These are not people who want to dialogue. These are people who want to SILENCE dialogue. "Just shut up, buy my book, and hand over 10% of your income." It's a common thread. In the case of JAL, it's a common, REPEATED thread.] Has anybody here ever invited Chris Geer or Craig Martindale to come on Grease Spot Cafe to address some long lingering concerns? If not, why not? Those guys might tell you to go BLEEP yourselves, but I don't believe either of them would shoot anybody for just asking. The absolute worst thing that could happen is they'd probably just say "No" to you -- Is that too horrifying of an experience for you guys to imagine? [The offer's been on the table. We've even discussed how they'd be welcome here. I suggested they might want to start by using a screen-name, specifically so they could arrive and avoid all the baggage with being them. Perhaps later they'd feel free to use their real names. No, no nibbles. BTW, I'm sure they're either well aware of us, or going out of their ways to avoid any and all mentions of themselves online. Seriously, if almost all the mentions of your name were all from a single messageboard, you'd be aware of the messageboard OR you'd be going out of your way to avoid it. It sounds like you find the idea that they were invited here to be too far-fetched. I think they won't even participate here because, again, they are control freaks who can't handle others disagreeing with them or holding the microphone. BTW, not everything said about them has been negative. IIRC, Rivenbark has been unique among all the twi and splinter top brass as the ONLY one that nobody could come forth and say something nice about. There WERE some nice things said about vpw and lcm- I remember because I started one of the threads that specifically invited comments about each, including positive comments, Frankly, I was shocked at how nobody who'd ever met Rivenbark could remember anything positive about her after seeing how they could say nice things about vpw and lcm] Bottom Line is, I don't think you're handling any counseling opportunities in accordance with Christian or Biblical standards. [ A) Not required for a board not required to be Christian nor Biblical. B) I disagree anyway. The flock has had a chance to heal up here. We don't have a responsibility here to counsel the jackals who spare not the flock. But, honestly, if lcm (for example) came here, posted under a pseudonym, quietly contacted people and repented of direct hurts he'd done to them, then later went public with who he was and asked for forgiveness and a chance to communicate here as an equal, I expect he'd get the sane chances to heal , discuss and participate as anyone else. ] Also, do some of these folks coming to Grease Spot Cafe to vent their Tales of Woe about the Way Ministry, have any legal grounds to sue them in Civil Court? If so, why not just recommend them to a lawyer who'd handle their case for a nominal fee? Or maybe help establish a GoFundMe account for them? [There's a switch- someone went to the existing GSC and asked about possible lawsuits against twi. If it wasn't FOR lawsuits against twi, there wouldn't BE a GSC! Look, if neither the people's accounts of the sufferings of themselves or others are to your taste, nor the candid discussions of the evils done by twi and splinter leaders, you might be on the wrong messageboard. You are welcome to find one that meets your criteria, or start your own. ] Taunting the Way leaders, or swearing at them on the Internet while hiding behind pseudonyms isn't helping anything, it's just making things worse. If folks are still experiencing nightmares and flashbacks 20+ years after leaving the Way Ministry, they probably ought to seek the help of a Psychiatrist and maybe ask them if they could prescribe some medication for them. Actually, there's no shame in doing something like that if you know you need the help. {You belittle both what is done here, and how it helps. Thousands of people have said they were helped here already. Plenty of people never posted here, and only lurked. We don't know how many of those we helped. Also, revealing hidden truths about people trying to hide their crimes and abuses of people- all so they can do it some more- that's very important to the people who don't want to be their current victims. Those trying to recover from being their current victims have said it was important. And those who want to get healthy DECADES LATER have reported how important we've been in their recovery and healing/ BTW, some people HAVE seen Psychiatrists to hep recover from twi (as well as Momentus). Having chances to post here in addition has been useful for their recoveries. People who have had to hide their voices and deny their own right think or disagree find it healing just to be able to post in their own voices and think for themselves. Oh, and if you were trying to disagree like this in twi, or STFI, or JAL's latest travesty, you would NEVER have gotten this far. Your voice would have been silenced.] Besides that, the Way Ministry certainly isn't the first church group in American history to find leaders sexually exploiting its membership and it probably won't be the last. What about the PTL Club, or Jimmy Swaggart, or Marcus Lamb, or more recently, Jerry Falwell Jr.? Heck, for that matter, what about the Baptist church down the street in your neighborhood? There are stories ALL THE TIME about local Pastors, Priests, Rabbis, etc., sexually exploiting their members -- please don't patronize everybody here by claiming that situation is ONLY unique to the Way Ministry. {Please don't belittle the hurts suffered by people at the hands of twi and splinter people. Their suffering is no less painful for not having been unique. There's plenty of room for messageboards for survivors of Swaggart or PTL and so on. Those survivors are free to make their own spaces for healing and telling their side of the story. I'd recommend you go check that out- if I though it was about compassion for them. However, this is all about trying to belittle suffering at the hands of lcm, vpw, jal, etc. in an effort to make the sinful "leaders" look fit for office.] Lastly -- speaking about Patronizing everybody here on Grease Spot Cafe -- the Way Ministry, even in its "hey day" back in the late 70's thru early 80's was NEVER as big in membership as y'all are claiming it was/is. The Way was NEVER as big as the Unification Church (Moonies), or Hari Krishnas, or Scientology. Nor did it ever have a membership as big as the Mormons, or the Jehovah Witnesses. If I'm wrong, why didn't incidents like, The Passing of the Patriarch, or Craig Martindale's sexual assault lawsuits ever make the National Press? The folks I mentioned in the previous paragraph all made the National Press for their incidents, so why didn't the Way Ministry follow suit? Also, weren't there a handful of people who authored books about the demise of the Way Ministry? If so, how come none of those publications ever made the New York Times Best Seller List, or even, the Amazon Best Seller List? {You must be thinking of some other messageboard. Nobody here claimed that twi was big enough to make the national news. Even at its height, it was smaller than some megachurches in some CITIES, let alone national groups or international. vpw and twi and lcm- and rfr- have slipped through the cracks because, on a national level, they've always been small potatoes. There was a Time Magazine article that mentioned vpw (it wasn't all about him, he was one leader of one group they discussed. There was a Life Magazine article about WOWs in Rye, NY around 1971 which was the height of national penetration of twi. None of that means we should stop discussing twi. One careless driver hitting one kid with a van one afternoon on one street is a statistic in that city. it doesn't warrant statewide nor national news. However, for that kid, and the people who care about him, that incident would be a big deal and affect their lives (if he survived.) So, vpw not managing to rape women in all 50 states doesn't mean we don't discuss the lives he hurt when he DID rape women. For that matter, if he had "ONLY" raped one woman (there were LOTS, some of whom were drugged), it would still be important to discuss.] So many questions, so few answers. P.S. In response to Rocky's question: I'm NOT still active in the Way Ministry -- I stopped fellow-shipping with them in '86. [You may no longer be in the organization. However, that doesn't mean the organization has not left YOU. I'm genuinely sorry that you haven't progressed further in your twi recovery journey. Either you've avoided humans for decades (unlikely) or you spent more than a decade in one or more splinter groups. Hopefully, you'll be able to progress beyond twi AND splinters now. If you want to try, we're here and may be able to help, If you'd rather remain lockstep with twi or a splinter, then you're just going to find us counter-productive.]

IN addition to all of those, immediately after Waydale was the first GSC messageboard, which was replaced by the current messageboard. (Not to take away from any of the events you mentioned- most were more important than what I added.)

"Lawdy mama, light my fuse." Um, Rick Derringer's "Rock and Roll Hoochie-Coo"??

Thank you. BTW, in "the Great Gatsby" we find out that Jimmy Gatz/ James Gatz is Jay Gatsby's real name. (In the De Caprio movie, it's "James", but "Jimmy" is how it's given in the book.)

Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works. There's this interesting notion. It persists among ex-twi, and, apparently, NOBODY ELSE. This notion is- it is WORSE to expose vpw, lcm, JAL, etc as rapists or embezzlers or simonists than it was for any of them to actually BE a rapist, embezzler, or simonist. The idea is that God is less pleased at whisle-blowers than at felons who still victimize His people. it's a bizarre idea. Verses like II Timothy 4:14 make it obvious- as if one has to actually be told it's obvious. Hand in hand with that one is the bizarre idea that posters here spent ALL THEIR FREE TIME just posting here, and Christians who post here NEVER do anything Christian because they don't come here blowing a trumpet before them, to be seen of men. I don't think it's an HONEST misunderstanding. I think it's a DEFENSE MECHANISM which is grasped by those who wish to all but deify corrupt, abusive "Christian" leaders who have been caught. It's not meant to clarify anything- it's meant to fog the issues and change the subject.

There continues to persist the notion that the GSC is REQUIRED to be a Christian messageboard, rather than a messageboard open to all religious positions (including anti-religious positions and a-religious positions.) To require that would be a DISSERVICE to twi survivors who no longer consider themselves Christian. Some ex-twi were so scarred by twi, by vpw, by lcm, by JAL, by CG, by rfr, that the flee Christianity completely. I disagree with their decisions, but I have sympathy for anyone who's been hurt like that. Telling them to "just suck it up" does not work, and is rather INhuman. (There's other non-Christians who didn't flee in anger- I think they're also poorly-served by being silenced- and the twi survivor communities are ill-served by silencing them.) The vast majority of discussions about twi don't require one to believe the Bible. We can discuss what twi says, and what the Bible says, and show they are not connected, without requiring any poster believe the Bible. (Objective truth is the same no matter one's personal beliefs.) BTW, there's places on the GSC for someone to post something pro-Christian. Also, as the GSC is about twi and its splinters, and surviving them, it's not a requirement for people to continue posting. Plenty of devout Christians have stopped posting and gotten on with their lives post-twi and post-GSC. I consider all of them to be GSC SUCCESS STORIES. They got what they needed and then went on to live their lives.

First, to correct a few factual inaccuracies at the same time..... After vpw had unilaterally appointed lcm as his successor, and vpw's health waned, vpw found out that the system that embraced him while he was The Big Cheese With No Accountability now embraced lcm, and vpw found himself as irrelevant as he'd made everyone else. Unable to accept being treated like everyone else, vpw ran to Gartmore and cried on Geer's shoulder. According to CG- whose account I believe reflected what happened- vpw spent a considerable amount of time making all sorts of predictions (which all failed to come to pass) and claims that the current leaders of twi had now stepped out from serving God, etc, etc. CG wrote all this out as a 40-page letter, "The Passing of the Patriarch." He insisted on confronting the top leaders with it, and when he addressed the in-residence Corps with the same letter, he brandished a pistol. (He loved using dogs or guns to try to intimidate people.) The 40-page letter goes on at great length but never makes any SPECIFICS. If it was addressing real problems, why couldn't it name even ONE problem that needed fixing? It was all vague comments. Around this time, one or two PRINCIPLED leaders (RD and possibly one or 2 others) had been approached by people who had been abused/raped by vpw or lcm. RD immediately went to address this. He was escorted off grounds that same hour at gunpoint. A handful of top leaders got together to see if they could salvage the situation. Unfortunately, part of this was JAL writing an equally vague letter about some nebulous problems at HQ. JAL went around the US, telling people what he knew, collecting cash donations, making himself known, etc. Once it was clear that JAL and a few others were more intereted in making a new twi-style group, RD parted company with them. JAL and friends formed "Christian Educational Services" - later Spirit and Truth Fellowship International". In the beginning, they said they were open to discussing doctrine and there being no sacred cows. A few years later, they published a declaration of core beliefs, shut down their messageboard, and shut down disagreements as a whole. The 2 biggest concerns among their adherents were probably their rather harmful doctrines of "Personal Prophecy" and "Momentus." (We have entire threads about both subjects- each thread being about ONE of those 2.) They could now have someone "prophesy" that anyone who disagreed with them was a spiritual danger- and they did just this. JAL's aware of this one quite vividly- his divorce with his then-wife was traced to repeated "prophecies" made in an attempt to shut her up. To this day, AFAIK, JAL's never apologized for leading people over the cliff on that one and insisting it was Biblical- all while silencing discussion on it. The other was the SECULAR progam "Momentus." It's an MLM that runs as a training program. Its names keep changing so that people can't look it up online and find out all about it. A few of its names are claimed to be "Christian." The practices of the program show no connection with practices in the Bible. There's various activities that a good Psychologist or Sociologist could identify as increasing groupthink and encouraging people to be louder and more aggressive. A number of participants of Momentus (a number under EACH of its names) had breakdowns, required psychological assistance, etc as a result of participating. Eventually, CES/STFI stopped openly promoting it, and got evasive on whether or not they were still recommending it. (They refused to be clear about continuing to use it, or beginning to abandon it.) When people spoke to JAL privately, JAL rebuffed normal discussions and advertised Momentus. It was impossible to have a normal discussion with him any more- any conversation was a marketing opportunity. BTW, eventually JAL and STFI parted ways. JAL and their other leaders BOTH wanted to be in charge and in control of all the dough. So, JAL left and- AGAIN- formed another ex-twi twi-style group.

Hey, it's all good. :)

After this, the giveaways are next.

Tobias Wolff Jim Carroll Arthur Rimbaud Brandon Darrow Amsterdam Vallon Danny Archer Arnie Grape Fee Herod William "Billy" Costigan Roger Ferris Frank Wheeler Edward "Teddy" Daniels Calvin J. Candie Rick Dalton James/JImmy Gatz Hugh Glass Jordan Belfort Hank Lacker Dom Cobb Garry Buckman Luke Brower

I mentioned a comedy and that book, and I commented about something that could be funny (the comedy) or interesting (that book, by exclusion.)

Another way to look at the exact same thing you looked at..... The guy is now in his late 70s. He's still traveling around, preaching for pay (preferably those nice, non-taxable envelopes of cash known as "prayer offerings" or "abundant sharings" or "love-offerings" or the like.) He's fine with being VERY political and partisan, incidentally preaching Christ. How many ex-wayfers are doing that- as opposed to praying, preaching love, preaching Christ crucified-buried-raised-ascended-returning, in short, all the Biblically-speaking stuff, Biblically speaking? John's still trying to push John's latest gig down everybody's throat. That's something I can NEVER respect. Just saying. BTW, I'm curious if he's still following his more-than-a-decade practice of SECRETLY pushing MOMENTUS while avoiding the subject while the microphones were on. He never apologized for the lives RUINED by this un-Christian business that masqueraded as a Christian business, which he touted as if it was the next way corps- complete with insider-outsider status, private lingo, etc. He stopped OPENLY pushing it, but was still recruiting people to it several years later, by phone and so on. JAL has gone on record saying he will only dialogue with people whose use their real names- although he refused to dialogue with some people who gave their full names- and then only by phone. Those whom he DID speak to reported that he never actually listened or "dialogued" - he just used the phone-call as a chance to shill his classes and programs. That's something I've never been able to respect. Just saying. (In deference to the "absolutely NO politics" rule at the GSC, I'm not going to address the politics (tempting though it is.)

I didn't get offended at the scene with Jesus in "History of the World Part I", so I'm ok with this. I hardly equate either with a credible position, but neither has to be. Something funny or interesting can be good because it is funny or interesting, not because it's historically accurate.

Without even opening the video.... I think it's cute how they changed the logo. Used to say "word over the world", with the Aramaic approximating that ("word over the inhabited earth".) Now it says "the prevailing word" with, apparently, its translation into Aramaic. It was lcm whose delusions announced "the word was over the world" after their membership numbers collapsed, and who announced the new motto was "the prevailing word" in one variety or another. lcm's been booted but his delusion is still center-stage. Neat how their RIDICULOUS, UNGODLY "no-debt" policy is being relaxed somewhat. No word on if people kicked out over it are welcome to return, of course. They'd have to admit they were wrong all along. Worse, there were people who explained this clearly in the beginning, but twi's upper cadre turned a dear ear back then. Now, they're looking at ways to increase revenue. Allowing those in reasonable debt to attend the Advanced Class is a step in the right direction, but then "the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." To get to where they'd actually please God would take a similar journey. They've taken a single step. I wonder about the remaining 999 miles and change that remain.

My Blue Heaven Steve Martin The Three Amigos

Tobias Wolff Jim Carroll Arthur Rimbaud Brandon Darrow Amsterdam Vallon Danny Archer Jim Carroll Fee Herod William "Billy" Costigan Roger Ferris Frank Wheeler Edward "Teddy" Daniels Calvin J. Candie Rick Dalton James Gatz

Ghostbusters 2 Brian Doyle-Murray Wayne's World

Tobias Wolff Jim Carroll Arthur Rimbaud Brandon Darrow Amsterdam Vallon Danny Archer Jim Carroll Fee Herod William "Billy" Costigan Roger Ferris Frank Wheeler Edward "Teddy" Daniels

In case anyone's curious, I added the explanations.

I think it's a de facto FREE POST by now.

So it's Human's turn.

*wild swing* "Thelma and Louise"???

I'm ignoring "Discovery." Was "Swamp Thing" any good?