WordWolf

Um, "Armageddon"?

YEEEAAAAAHHHH!!!!!!!!! That's the last line of "Won't Get Fooled Again," by The Who."

Johniam: ""I'm sure that it is possible to get possessed by going to a trinitarian church. Where do you think twi got half its people? " WordWolf: "Half of twi's people were possessed people who came possessed from trinitarian churches? " WordWolf: "Interesting how it's only "trinitarian churches" that are a risk for getting possessed, here. Other cults, no. Groups demanding blind loyalty, no. Actual occult practices, no. Actual devil/demon worship, no. No worries about practicing Satanists, but that Franciscan Order RCC that's feeding the hungry and helping people get jobs and housing are hazardous to your spiritual health!" /////////////////////////////////////////////////// Eventually, John responded to that wirh: "Where did I say "only"? Also...quote: Half of twi's people were possessed people who came possessed from trinitarian churches? - That's not what I posted. All you ever do is misrepresent anything you don't like." WW responds: [Actually, that's right out of vpw's playbook. Instead of saying things outright, make implications to misdirect people. IMPLY something, then deny you ever actually said it because you left it by implication. However, the rest of us know that what an average person is supposed to get from what you posted is the idea you wanted to express- that Roman Catholics get possessed all the time because they're Trinitarians- and that patting yourself on the back for not posting that phrase in exactly those words doesn't mean you've fooled the rest of us. When asked for a clarification, you flat-out refused.] John: "I don't have to give you a straight answer. " WW answers: [No, you don't have to communicate clearly at all with anyone. That doesn't mean you've FOOLED anyone, but you don't have to let your yeah be yeah nor your nay be nay. People who actually care about the Bible might find that a problem, however.] Johniam: "You could get possessed anywhere. Jack the Ripper was from the royal family. You don't think he was possessed? You could be raised in Barbie's dream house and still get possessed. " WW: "Ah, but you didn't mention ANYTHING else until called on it. But places teaching Christ as best they can are certainly hard ground to try to get people possessed, rather than, say, some kid listening to death metal and torturing animals. " Johniam: "We learned in the 'dealing with the adversary' class that the devil has 4 fronts. 4 ways of disseminating info to us. 1) society 2) religion (source of the trinity, wink, wink) 3 other people and 4) ourselves." WW: "Those categories are highly arbitrary- Categories 1 and 2 overlap, since religion is in society. Categories 1 and 2 overlap in Category 3, because people don't exist apart from society. Finally, we disseminate information to OURSELVES? Rather than just parroting back what someone taught you, really think about it sometime." Johniam: "The trinity is another god." WW: "The Trinity is how your fellow Christians- for whom Christ died- try to understand God and Christ and serve both. Ganesha is "another god." Odin is "another god." Zeus is "another god." Johniam: " VP did, in advanced class 79, make the distinction between being adamant about the trinity and not being adamant, saying that those who were adamant were possessed. I met people like that. Creeeeepeeeee! " WW: "News flash- anyone really adamant about ANYTHING, whose life revolves around ANYTHING- religious, poltical, etc, is CREEPY (providing you're not in full 100% agreement with them.) You don't have to be possessed to be creepy, any more than you have to be possessed to be a creep. " Johniam; ""Just like the adamant trinitarian, you must think you are smarter than God if you disagree." WW; "[Where did I disagree with that? Oh, that's right- in your imagination I disagreed with that. I didn't say the doctrine of the Trinity was CORRECT, nor did I imply it. On a different subject, is there a verse that says that if you're a Trinitarian, "you must think you are smarter than God"? There's plenty of Trinitarians who are sure that God is amazingly smarter than them, and believe in the Trinity. Pope Francis seems to be a humble man of compassion and piety, very much the kind of Christian to minister to the sick and poor and so on- and he's a Trinitarian and quite certain of his position. According to your previous post, adamant Trinitarians are supposedly possessed. (vpw said it, that settles it...) ] Johniam: "You claim you are "trying to understand God"???? Not trying very hard. God says thou shalt have NO OTHER GODS before Him. What part of no other Gods don't you understand??? " Johniam; "John 8:12 - the pharisees therefore said unto him, thou bearest record of thyself, thy record is not true. In other words, hey, Jesus, that's just your opinion. Same self righteous tone as in WWs and Waysider's last posts." WW: [It's fascinating when vpw apologists resort both to strawmen and insults when replying to me. They can't refute my points, so they change the subject and pretend they did refute them. In this case, pointing out blatant errors in vpw's classes- which I did= was equated with Pharisees dismissing Jesus. Wow, equating Jesus' in-person teaching with vpw's classes! That's amazing.] Johniam: "I recall one encounter with a person who was adamant about the trinity. I tried to point out 1 Tim 1:5, one God...one mediator between God and men...the man Christ Jesus. Not the God/man, the man. The idiot came back with...a mediator has to be fully partaker of both. Not correct. A mediator, by definition, is a third party, agreed on by the other 2 parties to resolve a dispute. For example, in major league baseball at times, a player will demand X amount of money, but the team says no, we'll give you less than X. So a mediator is hired to resolve the dispute. The mediator in this case is called an arbitrator. This arbitrator is not a player or an owner. He/she cannot be full or any percent partaker of either. If he/she was, it would be a conflict of interests. " WW: [I'd certainly agree that a mediator is supposed to be impartial, and thus neither of the parties between whom he is mediating, and not a member of EITHER party or of BOTH parties. The concept of the conflict of interest isn't terribly modern even if the term is modern. (The same is true of power of attorney- an ancient concept with a modern name.] Johniam: "Jesus is not any percent partaker of God. He is a man, but all other humans are sinners. Jesus was tempted in all points, yet without sin (Heb 4:15). (Pssst...God cannot be tempted Jas 1:13) This is the ONLY thing which qualifies Jesus to be a mediator between God and man. " WW: [I'd agree, obviously, that Hebrews 4:15 and James 1:!3 contrast Jesus with God quite neatly- God CANNOT be tempted, and Jesus WAS tempted, therefore, at the very least, they can't be the same being and are not the same being.] Johniam: "Just like the adamant trinitarian, you must think you are smarter than God if you disagree." WW: [Where did I disagree with that? Oh, that's right- in your imagination I disagreed with that. I didn't say the doctrine of the Trinity was CORRECT, nor did I imply it. On a different subject, is there a verse that says that if you're a Trinitarian, "you must think you are smarter than God"? There's plenty of Trinitarians who are sure that God is amazingly smarter than them, and believe in the Trinity. Pope Francis seems to be a humble man of compassion and piety, very much the kind of Christian to minister to the sick and poor and so on- and he's a Trinitarian and quite certain of his position. According to your previous post, adamant Trinitarians are supposedly possessed. (vpw said it, that settles it...)"] Johniam: "You claim you are "trying to understand God"???? Not trying very hard. God says thou shalt have NO OTHER GODS before Him. What part of no other Gods don't you understand??? " WW; {b][Poor reading comprehension is showing here. I posted that the Trinitarians are trying to understand God. I never even suggested I agreed with their conclusions. I disagree with your unsupported assertion that people who believe in the Trinity are believing in "other gods." I already posted about that- Zeus, Ganesha and Odin are "other gods." Trinitarians are worshiping the God of the Old Testament and the New Testament, they pray in Jesus' name, they try to follow Jesus' example, and they show "Christian morality" in their behavior often. If they're incorrect in how they view Jesus' relation to his Father, they understand behaving like they were told to behave. They're the ones who put forth a hand of compassion to help others. I've seen plenty of non-Trinitarians who think the only important behavior is to condemn Trinitarians for errant doctrine, and care nothing about helping others. I'm sure you're certain it's far more important to eschew the Trinity than to help others, and I'm certain the opposite is true. God's tendency to answer the prayers of Trinitarians and Unitarians with identical alacrity seem the strongest statement on how God feels about it. If it was that important, one side would get their prayers answered, and the other would get lots of visions about how they'd have to mend their doctrine before He'd answer. The Trinitarians, for whom Christ died, are just as sincere and devout as you- I'd argue a number are moreso. I'm not prepared to see them do the right thing and get prayers answered, and still condemn them for errant doctrine. If you are, then perhaps it's really YOU that think you're smarter than God, since you sound like you'd take Him to task for answering their prayers as fast as He answers yours. Or, more to the point, you may think vpw was smarter than God, if adhering to his doctrine means God's off the ball for answering the prayers of the Trinitarians. If you actually believed I thought I was smarter than God, or even in His ballpark, it would demonstrate an inability to understand my posts. I'm not convinced that's a genuine conclusion based on what I've posted rather than what you've imagined I've posted (like imaging I was talking about myself when I said "the Trinitarians."][/b]

"There are so many thousands of these kinds of grads out there that I meet them all the time on the net. " So, you know there's THOUSANDS of these kinds of extwi/pfal types because you've interacted with single digits of them, and extrapolated that there's 1000 you don't meet for every 1 you do meet. That might work in a population of 10s of millions of radio fans or TV show enthusiasts, but there just don't EXIST the MILLIONS of extwi/ expfal for such an extrapolation to be warranted. By that same logic, 1000 LARPers moved from the USA to South America because I know of ONE who has done so- and for every ONE I know of, there's 1000 out there I do NOT know but are somehow there, anyway. Considering that more people die of old age that were extwi and expfal than are currently being introduced to it, I'd say that there's thousands of extwi and expfal, and possibly a few tens of thousands- but that also includes all the people who've posted here and condemned vpw, pfal and twi. If there were even hundreds of thousands, you MIGHT have a big enough population to encounter anew with some regularity. However, the overall population to draw from is just too small to warrant extrapolating 1000-1.

That last part is how there are fat people with malnutrition- they are eating plenty of CALORIES per day, but are not eating enough NUTRITIOUS FOOD per day. Not enough veggies, not enough fruit, and you can have all sorts of health problems. Granted, tiny amounts of fruit or vegetable in a day can prevent something like rickets, but that amount is far short of what we need in a day to avoid malnutrition.

Um, "Stargate Atlantis"???

From that song, I at least remember the line about Tony Danza. "Hold me closer, Tony Danza!" SOMETHING like that. :)

If you'd marked that the "long long time" thing was part of the song, I might have gotten it. I only know part of the lyrics of the song. I remember something about the long, long time, and missing my wife, and being as high as a kite, my friends, and zero hour 9am (I think.) It's easy if you know the lyrics.

This, of course, was the SAME lcm who spent several years wandering the grounds in a fog-by his OWN ADMISSION- following the reading of Passing of the Patriarch. Somebody who knew him said it looked like he might have been on psychiatric medication or something. AFTER that, he was known for such "gems" as this one. So, he learned nothing about humility or compassion from needing help or needing compassion because he was hurting.

There are some very good points here, but you were responding to John and not Mike, so I adjusted it in the quote.

This was the post that, apparently, was enough of a problem that distractions had to be made to draw attention away from it. It shows some obvious, blatant errors by vpw when he taught DWA and advanced class 79. It also refuted the ridiculous claims that fellow Christians who are Trinitarians are following another god (and not following God but being mistaken how to do so). and that one had to be possessed to be an ideological creep or creepy. BTW, for those out there who never took it, these are some of the results of pfal and twi- if you dedicate yourself to pfal or twi ideology, posts like this are one expected result. Lots of name-calling, self-righteousness, calling people possessed, and clinging to doctrines that are easy to refute.

"John 8:12 - the pharisees therefore said unto him, thou bearest record of thyself, thy record is not true. In other words, hey, Jesus, that's just your opinion. Same self righteous tone as in WWs and Waysider's last posts." [It's fascinating when vpw apologists resort both to strawmen and insults when replying to me. They can't refute my points, so they change the subject and pretend they did refute them. In this case, pointing out blatant errors in vpw's classes- which I did= was equated with Pharisees dismissing Jesus. Wow, equating Jesus' in-person teaching with vpw's classes! That's amazing.] "I recall one encounter with a person who was adamant about the trinity. I tried to point out 1 Tim 1:5, one God...one mediator between God and men...the man Christ Jesus. Not the God/man, the man. The idiot came back with...a mediator has to be fully partaker of both. Not correct. A mediator, by definition, is a third party, agreed on by the other 2 parties to resolve a dispute. For example, in major league baseball at times, a player will demand X amount of money, but the team says no, we'll give you less than X. So a mediator is hired to resolve the dispute. The mediator in this case is called an arbitrator. This arbitrator is not a player or an owner. He/she cannot be full or any percent partaker of either. If he/she was, it would be a conflict of interests. " [I'd certainly agree that a mediator is supposed to be impartial, and thus neither of the parties between whom he is mediating, and not a member of EITHER party or of BOTH parties. The concept of the conflict of interest isn't terribly modern even if the term is modern. (The same is true of power of attorney- an ancient concept with a modern name.] "Jesus is not any percent partaker of God. He is a man, but all other humans are sinners. Jesus was tempted in all points, yet without sin (Heb 4:15). (Pssst...God cannot be tempted Jas 1:13) This is the ONLY thing which qualifies Jesus to be a mediator between God and man. " [I'd agree, obviously, that Hebrews 4:15 and James 1:!3 contrast Jesus with God quite neatly- God CANNOT be tempted, and Jesus WAS tempted, therefore, at the very least, they can't be the same being and are not the same being.] "Just like the adamant trinitarian, you must think you are smarter than God if you disagree." [Where did I disagree with that? Oh, that's right- in your imagination I disagreed with that. I didn't say the doctrine of the Trinity was CORRECT, nor did I imply it. On a different subject, is there a verse that says that if you're a Trinitarian, "you must think you are smarter than God"? There's plenty of Trinitarians who are sure that God is amazingly smarter than them, and believe in the Trinity. Pope Francis seems to be a humble man of compassion and piety, very much the kind of Christian to minister to the sick and poor and so on- and he's a Trinitarian and quite certain of his position. According to your previous post, adamant Trinitarians are supposedly possessed. (vpw said it, that settles it...) ] "You claim you are "trying to understand God"???? Not trying very hard. God says thou shalt have NO OTHER GODS before Him. What part of no other Gods don't you understand??? " {b[Poor reading comprehension is showing here. I posted that the Trinitarians are trying to understand God. I never even suggested I agreed with their conclusions. I disagree with your unsupported assertion that people who believe in the Trinity are believing in "other gods." I already posted about that- Zeus, Ganesha and Odin are "other gods." Trinitarians are worshiping the God of the Old Testament and the New Testament, they pray in Jesus' name, they try to follow Jesus' example, and they show "Christian morality" in their behavior often. If they're incorrect in how they view Jesus' relation to his Father, they understand behaving like they were told to behave. They're the ones who put forth a hand of compassion to help others. I've seen plenty of non-Trinitarians who think the only important behavior is to condemn Trinitarians for errant doctrine, and care nothing about helping others. I'm sure you're certain it's far more important to eschew the Trinity than to help others, and I'm certain the opposite is true. God's tendency to answer the prayers of Trinitarians and Unitarians with identical alacrity seem the strongest statement on how God feels about it. If it was that important, one side would get their prayers answered, and the other would get lots of visions about how they'd have to mend their doctrine before He'd answer. The Trinitarians, for whom Christ died, are just as sincere and devout as you- I'd argue a number are moreso. I'm not prepared to see them do the right thing and get prayers answered, and still condemn them for errant doctrine. If you are, then perhaps it's really YOU that think you're smarter than God, since you sound like you'd take Him to task for answering their prayers as fast as He answers yours. Or, more to the point, you may think vpw was smarter than God, if adhering to his doctrine means God's off the ball for answering the prayers of the Trinitarians. If you actually believed I thought I was smarter than God, or even in His ballpark, it would demonstrate an inability to understand my posts. I'm not convinced that's a genuine conclusion based on what I've posted rather than what you've imagined I've posted (like imaging I was talking about myself when I said "the Trinitarians."][/b]

The rules don't apply to everyone equally- but under Communism or similar ideological systems, the official word is that the rules DO apply to everyone equally. This is, of course, a big, fat lie. Those in power always are Haves, and the rest are Have-Nots, for some value of Have and Have-Not (specifics vary wildly with different examples.)

Just for fun.... as we know, lcm had no idea what life was like for people who didn't live on twi grounds and weren't part of the cadre. He also had no real understanding of life and his strengths and weaknesses. When he was made the Grand Poobah of twi, there were people ready to inflate his ego further, and he was already on course to believe he'd become a de facto "Pope", inheriting "papal infallibility" and other super-powers by virtue of replacing vpw whom he believed had them. So, he replaced vpw's pfal class with his own class. He had no idea how deficient his own skills were in preparing and executing such a class- so he replaced pfal with an inferior product but insisted it was better because it was his. He had no comprehension how the new class was making it even harder to retain new people, since his class kept driving them off! lcm insisted his class was so good, it would lead to continual growth in twi, if only it was promoted more. So, he got an idea that he blamed God for- put the corps all on full-time work for twi. That way, they'd promote his class more, and the ranks of twi followers would swell, and lots more people would give 15-20% of their income, more than paying for the salaries of the corps. This involved 2 horrible mistakes- at least from twi's perspective. 1) No matter how many hours the corps had, they couldn't increase the numbers by large amounts by using wap as a recruiting tool because his class was awful. So, the predicted crowds of people could not arrive, and did not arrive, no matter what lcm expected. 2) Rather than all those corps working secular jobs and paying 15-20% of their salary to twi, they were now receiving money FROM twi as their sole salary. In short, his plan drained money from twi rather than brought in more. Honestly, his plan didn't work on paper, so this should not surprise anyone who took an honest look at it rather than flattering lcm's ego. ====================== As for the lack of a conscience at twi, there's a story I read a long time ago. When asked what a conscience was, a man said it was a 3-cornered thing inside his chest. When he did wrong, then it spun and the points hurt him. But if he KEPT doing wrong, the points wore down and they didn't hurt any more. twi's top people have done wrongly for so long, they have no idea they're doing wrong.

lcm was outraged when he heard people did that. He always wanted people to send more and more money to HQ. He was also a man who'd never worked a normal job in his entire life- he went straight from college and a football scholarship directly to "working" on twi grounds, and moved up while there. He really had no idea what life was like for everyone else.

Discussions about the idealized life under communism always remind me of George Orwell's book, "Animal Farm." "All animals are equal- but some animals are more equal than others."

I think the current crisis has really made this worse. Before this started, I wasn't bad off, and was in a position to lose weight steadily- until all my routines were trashed. (My best methods of weight loss currently have involved rushing around, getting lots of cardio by lots of walking and a bit of marching.fast walking to get in everything I need done. I can lose weight 3 seasons out of the year- but in Summer it's too hot to rush around. So, I try not to gain a lot of weight in Summer. So, Summer ended and I was a healthy weight and was looking forward to getting down to my college waist size- then all the things I had to rush for all ended. I'll get the weight down eventually, one way or another (probably the same way as before, but possibly with a fun routine.) Some time ago, my best weight losses were exercise I liked- generally either swimming or fencing. I'm aware that a lot of people put on weight in 2020, and are trying to figure out how to lose it.

"You could get possessed anywhere. Jack the Ripper was from the royal family. You don't think he was possessed? You could be raised in Barbie's dream house and still get possessed. " Ah, but you didn't mention ANYTHING else until called on it. But places teaching Christ as best they can are certainly hard ground to try to get people possessed, rather than, say, some kid listening to death metal and torturing animals. "We learned in the 'dealing with the adversary' class that the devil has 4 fronts. 4 ways of disseminating info to us. 1) society 2) religion (source of the trinity, wink, wink) 3 other people and 4) ourselves." Those categories are highly arbitrary- Categories 1 and 2 overlap, since religion is in society. Categories 1 and 2 overlap in Category 3, because people don't exist apart from society. Finally, we disseminate information to OURSELVES? Rather than just parroting back what someone taught you, really think about it sometime. "The trinity is another god." The Trinity is how your fellow Christians- for whom Christ died- try to understand God and Christ and serve both. Ganesha is "another god." Odin is "another god." Zeus is "another god." " VP did, in advanced class 79, make the distinction between being adamant about the trinity and not being adamant, saying that those who were adamant were possessed. I met people like that. Creeeeepeeeee! " News flash- anyone really adamant about ANYTHING, whose life revolves around ANYTHING- religious, poltical, etc, is CREEPY (providing you're not in full 100% agreement with them.) You don't have to be possessed to be creepy, any more than you have to be possessed to be a creep. "Process this post any way you wish, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. " Actually, that was vpw's opinion that you're sticking to, but that's hardly news at this point.

"I'm sure that it is possible to get possessed by going to a trinitarian church. Where do you think twi got half its people? " Half of twi's people were possessed people who came possessed from trinitarian churches? Interesting how it's only "trinitarian churches" that are a risk for getting possessed, here. Other cults, no. Groups demanding blind loyalty, no. Actual occult practices, no. Actual devil/demon worship, no. No worries about practicing Satanists, but that Franciscan Order RCC that's feeding the hungry and helping people get jobs and housing are hazardous to your spiritual health!

No one's ever asked that before! In his final few years, he was not only no longer the center of attention, he was being actively pushed aside and ignored. He flew to the UK so chris geer could suck up to him and assure him the sun rose out of his navel. After vpw passed away, geer showed up at HQ with a gun and a manifesto- the 40-page letter about how everybody else failed vpw and were all the problems of twi without naming one specific. That 40-page letter was POP- Passing of the Patriarch.

"I love my father... Some people need to be grateful and remember that if it weren't for him, they would be dead. People stopped the move of the Spirit, (God did not stop working as much as He could)." I'm sure you realize that sounds nothing like someone who is even AWARE of vpw's predations no matter their firsthand knowledge. That sounds like someone who stopped short of saying "If he'd have lived to be 100, things would have been perfect" but sure THINKING it nonetheless. So, some people owe vpw their lives, and some people messed everything up. She doesn't owe anyone an explanation, and she's not required to face reality, of course. But I thought you'd like to know, on the off-chance you missed that.

The scene where they were combing the desert! The 2 stormtroopers in white armor had a comb, and announced "Nothing, sir" when asked if they'd found anything. The other 2 stormtroopers were 2 black guys, in black armor, and using a giant afro pick. "Man, we ain't found $h1t!". That was TIM RUSS (Tuvok of Vulcan) who got to deliver that line. Dark Helmet complained about the awful aim of his bridge crew gunners. He found out the worst offender was somebody's nepotism hire, and his family name was "@$$h0le." In fact, that was true of most of his bridge crew, so when he asked how many were there, almost the entire room's Spaceballs raised their hands. That's when Dark Helmet realized he was surrounded by them. BTW, John Hurt was in the diner when the Alien xenomorph burst out of his chest. "Oh, no, not again." When he was collapsing, someone asked to get him some water. Anyway, the xenomorph pulled out a hat and cane and did a song-and-dance number that I quoted.

"Well I remember every little thing as if it happened only yesterday, parking by the lake and there was not another car in sight."

When addressing the corps privately, vpw casually dismissed the actual dangers of hitchhiking- AFTER at least one LEAD participant was raped. He pointed out you could get raped anywhere (he named a few nearby locations). Since it was POSSIBLE to be raped anywhere, he saw no reason to reduce the risk of rape ANYWHERE. BTW, that's legally-actionable. If you run a program like this, in the eyes of US law, you are de facto claiming to the public that you can SAFELY run such a program and are legally responsible to minimize risks reasonably. You have a FIDUCIARY RESPONSIBILITY to keep the participants safe. Your contract with them implies you will keep them REASONABLY SAFE. I know we've always had a vpw defender or 2 who claimed ridiculous things about that, so I will explain in simple terms that even they can understand- even though they will work hard to misunderstand them anyway. Let's say you want to do a "lightbearers" type of witnessing thing in the program. You're expected to have a safe environment for them to act in, and to monitor them and the situation in case there's some unforeseen problem that looms up - even if it's bad weather or a biker gang or something. This does NOT mean "So you bring shotguns for witnessing on the off-chance a biker gang comes around", nor does it mean "So you pack emergency supplies for every possible type of weather event"= although carrying SOME is a good idea, but monitoring the weather is a better one. So, what do you do if your plan of having them witness in a known crack neighborhood backfires? Trick question! You do NOT do a STUPID thing like that! No non-twi or non-extwi program plans things that stupid! Those are OBVIOUS dangers. So the vpw slave asks, snarkily, what you do to teach them believing. (This came up before in response.) It's rather sad but typical that such a person can't imagine a SAFE activity to teach believing or to get someone to "exercise" believing- as if it requires danger to life-or-limb to practice that. Any sensible group provides transportation for their own planned events- except twi, but I did say "SENSIBLE" so I already excluded them. So, no hitchhiking whatsoever, and if something like the LEAD rock-climbing is done, it's done with plenty of professionals overseeing each group, with plenty of safety gear, and OVER-emphasis on the proper gear and not climbing in dangerous weather. We had a horror story of a climbing group that was told to climb in dangerously cold weather. One participant had family that was familiar with travel in freezing weather, and made sure she prepared for subzero outdoor conditions. So, she was the ONLY person in the group that was WELL prepared for such an unsafe climb. She reported how another participant, one who had followed twi's instructions for prepping boots for the cold, had suffered frostbite as a result and severed her own toes on one foot to be able to complete the program. Anywhere outside twi, that sounds completely crazy. Inside twi world, we know that wasn't an outrageous claim because ridiculous things endangered participants' lives all the time. Someone else here REFUSED to blame twi for a vehicle accident. Coming back from LEAD, his group was REQUIRED to operate their vehicle in unsafe winds, ad unsafe speeds, and REQUIRED to get their evaluations done in transit- which distracted the driver. They had a truck that was dragging a trailer hitch on a highway in heavy winds. The trailer contained HUMANS who were not secured in place. When a crosswind hit that insane rig, the entire vehicle-hitch combo was flung in the wind and spun over. People were horribly injured- as if they'd been walking a highway and hit by a car traveling at highway speeds. Any program from groups NOT twi would consider the entire setup INSANE. You don't force people to travel in bad weather when they're safe right where they are. IF they are to travel. they are expected to travel at a safer speed, not pretend they're on a normal highway on a normal day. Finally, the people would be in a safe vehicle- like a passenger van or even an old school bus, and not something that was bound to deflect the wind. The only thing I blame the driver for is agreeing to be in a twi program, since twi dictated all the unsafe things about the incident, and would have kicked out the driver if he'd actually acted safely. What kind of organization puts its people at risk of loss of life or limb? Obviously one where human life is seen as EXPENDABLE and the participants are seen as DISPOSABLE. That's twi as vpw made it, and as practiced when lawyers don't force changes. What does it say about your supposed church group when the only times it reduces risks to its people are when its lawyers say they HAVE TO and have NO CHOICE?