WordWolf

He also demeaned people he made up SOLELY to demean. The church elders he supposedly mouthed-off to insolently as soon as he began his first pastorate, to begin with. He couldn't even keep straight where he was when they had their blow-out. According to vpw, the church elders gave him advice before his first sermon- he could teach on anything he wanted, so long as he didn't mention money. Naturally, he spent the next FOUR WEEKLY SERMONS focused on tithing. After this MONTH had passed, they came over to talk to him about it. He said that he never mentioned money, only tithing, and that they should leave him alone and he'd run the parish the way he thought it should be run. They responded by leaving him alone and dropping the subject. If that whole story doesn't ring false, I don't know why. Another time, he made up an old man he'd known when he'd grown up, whom he visited in the man's retirement, in a retirement home paid for by the community. He said he'd gone to the man's son and complained both about him letting the man end up there, and not visiting him and bringing him things. He said the man's son replied by saying "Well, he's old- let him die." The most interesting part of this story, to me, was how it grew WHILE HE WAS TELLING IT. At the beginning, this was a single visit to the man. By the end, he was visiting the man regularly and bringing him chewing tobacco. vpw didn't need real people to demean. He was perfectly capable of making up imaginary characters for the sole purpose of demeaning them- and he did so. Naturally, they didn't complain.

"Has interacted with a variety of actors and famous faces in Hollywood, comedy, and theater, including Earle Hyman, Bruce Willis, Steven Wright, Taimok, Robin Williams, Michael Keaton, Charles Grodin, Paul Rodriguez, and Marlo Thomas." (I've spoken to MK, CG and MT on the phone. I've met Steven Wright during Comic Relief, and I've met Paul Rodriguez during Latino Laughing Matters. I stood directly behind Bruce Willis at a register line in a bookstore but failed to recognize him traveling incognito. I stood behind Robin Williams at a register line in a bookstore and struck up a very short conversation with him (he was wearing a beard but I knew his voice anywhere. Yes, I got an autograph.) Earle Hyman I got into a conversation with, and he gave me some very interesting advice about why a person should or should not decide to work in show business. Taimok I met after a few of us went down the wrong block in Manhattan and wandered across a film shoot. After the scene was done, he came over and was willing to sign autographs- I not only had a pen, but a clipboard full of blank paper, which I let him use to sign for everybody else as well. "Was a consultant for Katherine Ramsland when she wrote her book "PIercing the Darkness." (To get background for her book, she explored the "vampire" subculture, including the Live Action Role Playing game, "Vampire-The Masquerade." She attended a single session, in which she participated. Only the Gamemaster knew who she was, and he'd written up a character for her. I had interacted with her in-game, and had offered some advice, also in-game. Her book mentioned that the episode included characters worried of a possible bomb onsite- a legitimate concern since my character had disarmed a bomb on a different site in the preceding episode and sweated at the prospect of trying to repeat his previous success. No, this current bomb was just a rumor. ) I've left out my run-in with Downtown Julie Brown. I was about to walk into a McDonald's when she burst through the door, a bag of food in either hand, and ran straight into a waiting taxi at the curb. Another second slower and it WOULD have been a run-in, as she would have crashed into me. I THINK that's all the celebrities I've had a brush with, at least the ones anyone in the US would recognize. I'm sure that, with a little tweaking, this list could sound like I hobnob regularly with A-Listers and B-Listers.

I just see/hear Dot reciting the lines.

Thanks. Despite Mike's imaginations to the contrary, I really don't spend a lot of time on vpw and his sins and delusions (except when someone like Mike comes back and tries to pretend they didn't exist and don't matter.) So, I was blanking for a moment about his (vpw's) alcohol of choice.

I'd give that claim a LOT more credence if it had a matching track record. If there were no Actual Errors for an Actual Errors list, I'd say that was remarkable, to say the least. pfal- and all of vpw's teachings- were visibly flawed- visible unless one refuses to consider the possibility they were flawed. For most people, that wouldn't really be a problem. Anyone teaching can mess up (although this particular field calls for harder work at quality control than some.) It's only when someone goes around saying God Almighty was personally involved with it, so it has no errors, THAT is when the errors REALLY become an issue.

Luke 2:41- 50 (KJV) 41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover. 42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast. 43 And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it. 44 But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance. 45 And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him. 46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. 47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers. 48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. 49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? 50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. ===================================== The family went to Jerusalem every year at Passover, and returned home by caravan after Passover, with the other tourists. At the end of the first day of traveling, they realized he wasn't in the caravan, hanging out with the homies. So, they ran back to Jerusalem, and found him at the temple, asking questions and answering, and doing so well above what was expected at his age. None of that says anything about a "bar mitzvah" or being "presented to the temple" or anything. It was a routine Passover vacation until Jesus ran off to the temple for heavy discussion. EVERYTHING about the bar mitzvah fiction, the old document fiction, and so on was added by vpw, and had no place here because it was completely off-topic in addition to being factually incorrect.

Also, the idea that anyone thought there was anything odd about Jesus' parentage and that he wasn't the child of Joseph and Mary was completely vpw's idea, as far as I can see. It certainly isn't in Scripture. The only ones who knew anything else were Joseph, Mary, and Elizabeth (not counting Gabriel.) Joseph found out Mary was pregnant, and quietly considered his options, planning on letting her go quietly but otherwise taking no action. After Gabriel updated him, he acted as if Mary was entirely his wife, and Jesus was entirely his son, with nobody outside the family knowing otherwise. Any references to the contrary in the Gospels were in the mind of vpw. He saw a verse here and there, and decided that it meant EVERYBODY knew Joseph wasn't Jesus' dad. Jesus challenged the Pharisees when they went on about Abraham being their father. When he did, they made a comment about not being born out of wedlock. vpw jumped to the conclusion that they were taking a shot at Jesus' actual parentage- but how would THEY know? Jesus and his family took their annual visit to Jerusalem and Jesus hung out at the temple. vpw jumped to the conclusion that this was Jesus' bar mitzvah, and that it was a year early, and that was because everybody knew he was not Joseph's kid- all despite 1) there being no such bar mitzvah for many centuries to come 2) nobody knowing that 3) that having absolutely nothing to do with the actual account.

In making up this story from whole cloth, what did vpw accomplish? A) He made Jesus Christ sound more like a maverick. Since vpw fancied himself a maverick (go over his own accounts of how he handled his first pastorate if you need proof), he tried to make JC sound more like himself. B) He made The Establishment sound WRONG. Again, putting Religious Authorities on one side, and himself and Right on the other side. C) He made it sound like all other Christian teachers were WRONG- and you could only trust HIM to get it right. All of that was part of vpw's campaign to carve out his own little empire among the young Christians. From the beginning, he'd preferred older Christians with money, but he wasn't able to impress them, he was able to fool the young and naive. So, he slowly tried to assemble the parts of a machine that would allow him to fleece a flock of young Christians. When his machine was ready, he still couldn't do it- until he heard about the Christian hippies of the House of Acts. He arrived there and did his full act- in between things like asking what orgies were like and saying God was ok with orgies- and manage to impress a handful of genuine Christians who were naive, and used them as his recruiting arm all through the 1970s.

In the cases of Lamsa and Pillai, he did consult with them. Independent sources paint both of them as crackpots, with entirely different kinds of cracks. So, not surprising they'd be willing to be seen in public with vpw. In the cases of Clark and Jones, he did not "consult" with them. They hosted events that he attended. That's it. It's like you attending an ROA before vpw died, and then later saying that vpw "consulted with you." Or vpw came to your town for the weekend, you were asked to be the one to buy his bottleS of bourbon or whatever, and you later saying that you "worked with him." I'd expect the ones we'd never heard him mention were in much the same category as Clark and Jones, and they would have been unable to pick him out of a police lineup to save their lives.

So, Jesus could not have had a Bar Mitzvah at any age because there was no such thing as a "Bar Mitzvah" ceremony at any age when Jesus was a teenager. So, vpw's document- that nobody has seen nor read, that said a thing was historically true but was historically nonexistent, that nobody can find a reference to because nobody discussed nonexistent things... this document that wasn't even needed because the passage had nothing to do with a Bar Mitzvah....... is there any other possibility- beyond a REASONABLE doubt- other than that vpw made it up and that's why it's so error-filled? Yes, we know somebody here will say it's impossible for it to have had an error, so the truth must be amazingly convoluted or hiding some deep secret, which is why it only APPEARS to be an ACTUAL ERROR. That's what happens when one is determined to "NEVER ADMIT AN ERROR IS AN ERROR." (HIS WORDS, NOT MINE.)

My initial response to "the Joy of Serving" was that this was the closing remarks of a man with an overinflated sense of his organization, and an underinflated sense of all Christians outside that organization. That conclusion still seems sound.

"I am STILL sending out Dr's last/lost teaching to grads who never heard of it. " For those who forgot, "The Joy of Serving" was a commercial for pfal. "You have to serve people something-so serve them the 3 levels of the class, and outside of twi, there's no real answers for people. (The End.)" Since it was hard to find, I thought I'd repost it. Mike insists this was vpw's last public teaching (there's reason to dispute that), and that it's important (and most of us don't take that seriously at all.) It was called "The Joy of Serving." Here's the transcript of "The Joy of Serving", aka "The Joy of Serving Transcript." ====================================================================== The Joy of Serving Transcript ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The Joy of Serving" Dr. V.P. Wierwille May 12, 1985 [song ends "I Am Resolved"]". . . will come to thee." Thank-ya very much. Please be seated. Well it's wonderful seeing you all again on a Sunday night. Really I appreciate your coming in from all over the area -- and I'm sure that Reverend Chris Geer and everybody else does. Most of you know, at least the Corps knows, that Chris and Barbara were my aids for about five years. So, through the years we have been very closely knit together. And, real thankful for their ministry and their dedication. Phil it's [Phylis?] good to see you. (laughter) You got married on me. 's nice. (laughter) Got anything to show for it? (heavy laughter) [pause] Mrs. Wierwille and I will be returning to the s-- United States tomorrow. And so I just wanna, again, thank Chris and Barbara and all the -- st- Corps here and staff and everybody, for -- the exquisite way they took care of us. And how blessed I been just ta be in their presence. [Article from The Way Magazine begins near here.] Since this is the meeting here at this time of country coordinators -- and of course, what I'm going to say should be applicable to every born again believer, but especially to -- our coordinators. I wanted to just share a little bit tonight on the joy of serving. The joy of serving. Number one, you can't serve unless you've got something to serve. So if you are going to serve a dinner, you have to have a dinner to serve, right? Good. If you master the foundational class on Power for Abundant Living, and the intermediate class plus the collateral readings that accompany them, you have really something wonderful to serve people -- with. That twig and twig area leader, and the country coordinators, leadership of the Corps, of the WOWs, have to all have this joy of serving. If you haven't got the joy of serving you missed something in the Word of God you oughta ah-put on. Heh, heh. So, number one, you gotta have something to serve. Number two is love. In Ephesians, chapter five -- verse one: Be ye therefore followers [imitators] of God, as [beloved, or] dear children; Number two: And walk in love, as Christ also [loved you, is the text], and [gave up] himself for [you] an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savour. I'll bet most of ya thought I was going ta read ya first Corinthians thirteen. (laughter) Wouldn't hurt ya to read it sometime again -- and believe what it says. Ha-ha-ha. Then I want you to look at first John, the epistle of first John. Chapter three -- verse sixteen: Hereby perceive we the love of God [and this word "love" is always agapao, or agape], because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. Verse seventeen: But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? Go back to Peter. Flip back a book, first Peter. Chapter two - no, chapter one. Verse twenty two. Seeing ye have purified your souls . . . That's renewed mind, 'cause your soul is not purified when you're born again. It becomes purified as you renew your mind -- according to the Word. purified your souls in obeying the truth [there it is,] through the Spirit unto unfeigned ["unfeigned" is genuine] love of the brethren, see that you love one another with a pure heart fervently: So first, in the joy of serving, you've gotta have something that's joyfully to be served, heh heh, secondly love, and then thirdly service. That's the joy and the order of it. I'll give you the four basic scriptural things relative to service as I know it from the greatness of the Word. Not gonna read these, just going give 'em to ya. I'm gonna read one of 'em with ya. Luke twenty, twenty-two and following; Luke twenty-three, sixteen and following; John thirteen, one and following. [ Luke 20:22ff, Luke 23:16ff, John 13:1ff ] But the one I want to read with you is from the Gospel of Mark. Mark, chapter ten. Verse thirty-five: And James and John [two of the apostles], Sons of Zebedee, [came] unto him [unto Jesus], saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire. (heh, heh, heh) Sounds sort of selfish, doesn't it? (heh, heh) And [Jesus] said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you? They said unto him, Grant us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory. [And] Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can you drink of the cup that I drink of ? baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? It's referring to his death. Thirty-nine: And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized with shall ye be baptized: But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared. Verse forty-one: And when the ten heard it, they began to be much displeased with James and John. [And] Jesus called them to him [all twelve], and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. See the world is just opposite of the teaching of the Scriptures. They exercise lordship over them; and then the great -eh - when he gets higher up on the ladder, then he exercises authority over the top of them too. That's why, so many times, we have heard that money is power. Because money buys people, and then people become the slaves of those who have the money. That's the world. Verse forty-three: But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, [shall be minister -- be your minister -- means minister to you]. See, every twig coordinator ought to know what's happening in his twig, among his people. He ought to know his people very well so he can minister to them. You can't help somebody if you don't know there's a need there. So a twig coordinator really has to get close to his people -- to know. And people are usually hesitant to really tell ya what they need until -- you have earned their respect. And you earn people's respect by serving them the Word of God and loving them -- and then learning to keep your mouth shut. You just -- you just never tell anything; you just help people. Forgot which verse I was -- forty-three: But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: Verse forty-four: And whosoever of you will be the chiefest [the greatest, the toppest], shall be [doulos of all] servant of all. Not just minister but a servant of all, a doulos, -- marked out for just serving people. For even [verse forty-five] the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many And after all of my years, and our years of working with people, I think the joy of service is exactly, in a synopsis form, what I've given you tonight. Number one, you have to take PFAL and master it -- Intermediate, you gotta master it; the collateral's that go with it, you gotta master. Then you've got something to serve people. And then you have to do it with the love of God in the renewed mind, -- agapao. Then your service is just not a ministering service, it is a doulos service, where you are a marked-out slave for serving. And I think this is what has made The Way Ministry so wonderful all over the world, generally speaking, is that we have a lot of the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation among our people and that we are serving our people. So every Twig coordinator, Twig Area, Country, anybody that blesses people, like anybody, even if you are not a Twig coordinator, you ought to master this so you can help somebody in the shop or factory; or wherever you are, so that you got answers for them. Outside of this ministry, people, I've seen very few answers. If we knew where there were more, we'd go get 'em! (laughter) That's right. Heh, heh. I think later on tonight you're gonna hear this old church hymn: O Master, let me walk with Thee In lowly paths of service free; Teach me the wayward feet to stay, And guide them in the homeward way. Teach me Thy patience! still with Thee In closer, dearer company, In work that keeps faith sweet and strong, In trust that triumphs over wrong; In hope that sends a shining ray, Far down the future's broad'ning way, In peace that only Thou canst give, With Thee, O Master, let me live. [The Way Magazine Article ends here.] That was my confirmation verse. Heh, heh -- hymn rather, not verse, hymn. Revelation three-twenty was the verse. Well, way back in March 17th this year we officially opened and dedicated the Word Over The World Auditorium at International Headquarters, that I'm sure a lot of your love and blessing's involved in. And since the opening, we have been making available the Sunday Night teaching fellowships -- Teaching Service, on video tape, as well as audio. But because of the differences in formats used in the United States and used here, most of you have not yet had the opportunity to see a video version of the Sunday Night Services. So Reverend Geer and I discussed this yesterday and felt that you'd be blessed tonight to see the Word Over The World Auditorium and a Sunday Night Service. So, Reverend Geer, you do what you have to do. [Tape ends here]

That was another ACTUAL ERROR. As Raf pointed out, Jesus' arrival at age 12 HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH A BAR MITZVAH. He was NOT presented in a Bar Mitzvah. His family showed up every year to celebrate a "FEAST" (they went on holiday the same time each year, to Jerusalem. for the same event.) When Jesus was 12, they went to the same event like every year. That time, however, Jesus broke off from the group and got into deep discussions at the temple. If he'd had the discussions a year later, it STILL would have had NOTHING TO DO WITH A BAR MITZVAH. So, there's no need to invoke some old Jewish document nobody's ever seen or heard of, to support some custom that no historian studying Judaism has ever encountered, just to explain why he was there at 12. He was there. He was young. He was discussing with the studious adults and holding his own. His exact age wasn't the point, and it had nothing to do whatsoever with a Bar Mitzvah. In fact, as Raf pointed out, there's nothing to indicate that anybody thought that Jesus was anything other than Joseph and Mary's son, born in wedlock. If someone in anger calls someone else a "son of a b****" , that doesn't mean he's trying to make a claim his mother was a dog, nor that she was a very quarrelsome woman. If someone in anger calls someone else a "bas****", it doesn't mean they're claiming the person was born out of wedlock. Those are meant as general insults, and context makes it obvious when someone means it literally. ("This male puppy, technically, is a son of a b****. He's a sweet puppy regardless.") We understand that in English. However, not everybody gets that it's much the same in different languages. vpw's shallow understanding of Scripture- mostly by parroting the work of others, often without understanding what he was saying- was insufficient to get it. So, we get a document nobody's ever seen or heard of, explaining a practice nobody's ever done, which nobody has ever found a reference to in decades of historical work.

It grew out of essentially nothing years before pfal. He called his previous films "The Teacher" with no justification, and kept using the title until the kids started to use it also. Odd to imagine, but when he visited NYC, one of his visits he had a small twi crowd greeting him with "The Teacher! The Teacher!" It took a lot of consistent name-dropping by him until it stuck, though.

"Dodge, distract, deny, but never admit an error is an error." -Mike. Yes, that's definitely not the methods I use. My worldview is fundamentally different from yours, Mike, because I'm interested in facing the truth- whatever truth that is- no matter how much I dislike the answers- because I value the truth for its own sake more than I value liking the answers. That's why I freely admit an error is an error, while you "never admit an error is an error." As for our methodology, that goes back to your "deny" strategy. You deny we used honest and fair methods to discuss and catalog the ACTUAL ERRORS IN pfal. You give zero credence to our results because they result in a conclusion you don't like. If we'd used the same methods and the conclusions had been to your liking, you'd have lauded our methods to the sky. When pfal places "all without distinction" and "all with a distinction" as synonymous, the only methodology needed to see it was an obvious error is to catalog it. Any high school student of "mathematical logic" knows that A does not equal Not-A, and "A and Not-A" is always false. When someone talks about someone else on one page, then becomes that person a page later, that doesn't require a degree to understand. That's obviously an error. Except under the Mikean system- under that system, no matter how obvious an error is, there is no possibility of admitting it is an error, so any response MUST end with claiming it is true SOMEHOW, no matter how convoluted and esoteric the explanation has to get. The thing is, Mike, when your approach to reality and discussions is this divorced from reality, you lose any credibility you had. Only someone dogmatically determined to agree no matter how ridiculous you get would continue to agree with you. Frankly, I feel sorry for you and anyone who is that far gone.

vpw's previous set of films were called "The Teacher." He'd called himself "The Teacher" years before pfal. That was in the low-budget films he'd made of himself before.

Both of you are right, it's The Avengers (Marvel's Avengers.)

-One actor, facing his role, said "Ed has bequeathed this part to me, I look at it as my generation's Hamlet." -One actor kept snacking all through the filming- he'd succeeded in hiding food all over the sets. -One actor said he got his favorite text message ever during filming. One of the actors sent a short text to the principal cast to get together for a night out. -One actor improvised several lines. One prompted the director to have the FX people to add something to a scene. Another included a suggestion to call out for work. -One actor had a rope attached to his leg. He knew that it would be pulled at SOME point, but had no idea WHEN it would be pulled. This improved a moment because the actor was surprised. -One improvised line involved drapes. -This movie had a body count of 151. -This movie had some foreshadowing- a mention of watching potential threats before the fact, and another about potential violent foreigners were two of them. -Two of the principal characters are ambidextrous but predominantly left-handed, which can be noted from how they wear their gear.

Concerning the fifth... in the final cut, the actor definitely moved, so your idea is probably correct. As to the fourth, I'd probably get people chiming in with the movie's name if I posted either, let alone both.

Nobody is interested in discussing it with you, probably because your motives for bringing it up are suspect. That's without any discussion back and forth, since it seems pretty obvious this wasn't about genuine curiosity about the Bible. We've read the verses, we've come to our own conclusions, and at the moment, none of us trust your motives enough to discuss them with you. This really shouldn't surprise you by now.

-One actor, facing his role, said "Ed has bequeathed this part to me, I look at it as my generation's Hamlet." -One actor kept snacking all through the filming- he'd succeeded in hiding food all over the sets. -One actor said he got his favorite text message ever during filming. One of the actors sent a short text to the principal cast to get together for a night out. -One actor improvised several lines. One prompted the director to have the FX people to add something to a scene. Another included a suggestion to call out for work. -One actor had a rope attached to his leg. He knew that it would be pulled at SOME point, but had no idea WHEN it would be pulled. This improved a moment because the actor was surprised.