CM

allan, You don't have to teach me twi doctrine. I know it backwards and forwards. If they were wrong on one point it stands to reason to investigate it all. Thessolonians does not say what twi says it says. If you would look at it without your preconceived ideas, with an open mind. You just might get some real spiritual enlightenment. What makes you think 1 Corinthians 11:30 is talking about physical death? Those who are weak and sickly can be asleep to the spirit.

Thanks for your posts Roy, Not sure about 4:14 yet. 1Corinthians 15 fits so well with this that it ain't even funny! :)

hmmmmm, yeah Danny, The death trap of narrow-mindedness. as opposed to Paul writing- Nailing it right off the bat cuz sorrow would turn to something worse.Especially with chapter 5 added into the mix like it's supposed to be. Sounds like talking about the living to me and how to deal with one another. allan, Why does it bother you?

thanks Todd, Seeing how these words are written to those who passed from death to life, it would not make since to address the issue of physical death. In the manner as sleep and death are addressed as does Thessolonians...1 and 2 btw,,,as you know..it does have a new life to it. Here some of the mystery is revealed to those willing to see a perspective that can be seen by those not entrenched in literalism and twi thinking. Of course I am one of those who was entrenched and trapped in such a manner. Not anymore. Or perhaps some of it hangs on like a bad dream. Filtering into some of what I say and do. Working on the new and letting the old die.

allan, you are still thinking physical death I'm not.

to be "caught up" would be quite an experience. Someone experiecing it for the first time would go thru some stuff i would think. Then we would meet them. A personal experience to all. To stay "caught up" would be like in the spirit i would think. Doubt if many could handle it for a sustained period of time God will bring all with him i believe. Noone would be left out. So I don't think this is just about a one time event. But happening a lot here and now. More thoughts are needed from more people and i could stand to reflect on it a while too.

even with physical death included we have this

also this phrase- and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord those which are alive and remain might be those who are alive in Christ as opposed to doing nothing which leads to going against Christ which is anti Christ cuz i think you have to know Christ a bit to be against him to be anti anything one would have to know what they are against

More interesting thoughts Danny, Taking physical death out of the equation will open it up I believe. And this certainly isn't the last word on the subject for me. dead in Christ-yeah those who have "received" yet do nothing. Dead works and all that. Like James talks about. And other places. KJV: Ro 6:4 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. KJV: Ro 7:6 6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. sleep in Jesus-those who haven't yet "tasted" or eaten of the manna from heaven Revelations 2:17He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. Since Jesus would be the mediater between God and men. and btw all have the spirit i believe, it's a matter of opening the eyes to it --- And then we have this little morsel of manna.. "those of us which are alive and remain" Will join both groups stated as they wake up. And as it it says "in the air", which is where the Spirit lives. Thus our caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Our gathering together as it claims here. 2 Thessolonians 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Certainly more to be absorbed into our understanding and spirit and wisdom....

VPW rightfully demanded “his way or the highway” obviously full of himself, selfish punk VPW was anti Christ Jesus Christ is the way-not pfal which doesn't even teach Jesus Christ

I don't see any difference between what you are trying to do Mike and what they are doing. You are posting here too you know.

a hunger Xena a desire to see don't stop seeking ask knock seek and you will find funny thing is you already have it as does everyone else

Thank You bliss, I wasn't sure if anyone would see it. I hesitated to post it, but glad I did.

Amen Abi... new minds...new hearts... new perspectives!!!! REAL COMFORT!!!! God's never left us...NEVER HAS! :) :) :)

KJV: Ro 13:11 11And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. KJV: 1 Co 11:30 30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. KJV: 1 Co 15:51 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, KJV: 1 Th 4:14 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. KJV: 1 Th 5:6 6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. KJV: 1 Th 5:7 7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. KJV: 1 Th 5:10 10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

KJV: Ro 1:4 4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: KJV: Ro 4:17 17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. KJV: Ro 4:19 19And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb: KJV: Ro 4:24 24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; KJV: Ro 5:15 15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. KJV: Ro 6:2 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? KJV: Ro 6:4 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. KJV: Ro 6:7 7For he that is dead is freed from sin. KJV: Ro 6:8 8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: KJV: Ro 6:9 9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. KJV: Ro 6:11 11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. KJV: Ro 6:13 13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. KJV: Ro 7:2 2For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. KJV: Ro 7:3 3So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. KJV: Ro 7:4 4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. KJV: Ro 7:6 6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. KJV: Ro 7:8 8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. KJV: Ro 8:10 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. KJV: Ro 8:11 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. KJV: Ro 10:7 7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) KJV: Ro 10:9 9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. KJV: Ro 11:15 15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? KJV: Ro 14:9 9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. KJV: 1 Co 7:39 39The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord. KJV: 1 Co 15:12 12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? KJV: 1 Co 15:13 13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: KJV: 1 Co 15:15 15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. KJV: 1 Co 15:16 16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: KJV: 1 Co 15:20 20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. KJV: 1 Co 15:21 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. KJV: 1 Co 15:29 29Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? KJV: 1 Co 15:32 32If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. KJV: 1 Co 15:35 35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? KJV: 1 Co 15:42 42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: KJV: 1 Co 15:52 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. KJV: 2 Co 1:9 9But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead: KJV: 2 Co 5:14 14For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: KJV: Ga 1:1 Galatians Chapter 1 1Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) KJV: Ga 2:19 19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. KJV: Ga 2:21 21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. KJV: Eph 1:20 20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, KJV: Eph 2:1 Chapter 2 1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; KJV: Eph 2:5 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) KJV: Eph 5:14 14Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. KJV: Php 3:11 11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. KJV: Col 1:18 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. KJV: Col 2:12 12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. KJV: Col 2:13 13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; KJV: Col 2:20 20Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, KJV: Col 3:3 3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. KJV: 1 Th 1:10 10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. KJV: 1 Th 4:16 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: KJV: 1 Ti 5:6 6But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth. KJV: 2 Ti 2:8 8Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: KJV: 2 Ti 2:11 11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: KJV: 2 Ti 4:1 Chapter 4 1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; besides the word "die" take your pick

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words. I don't believe this is talking about people who are dead physically necessarily.

the inner mind soul seeing the outer mind thoughts then seeing them both together is a 3rd dimension watching it all dance together ... the 4th dimension-and the heart who's the director? kind of funny that you are the ole between the ears thing desires, drive, upbringing, thoughts all seen through the same eyes yet......expandable..... and shrinkable...which is both good...

you know not of what you speak revvel

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navc...&q=nazarite+vow there you go oaks, have fun...

interesting enough is that there is no record of hills or mountains till after the flood started

more on the flood. It's been debated many times... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_(mythology)

I'm not saying there wasn't or was something that happened in the physical, natural elements. Or that there was not an Ark. But water represents the Word all over the Bible as well as other things too. The washing of water by the Word, John baptising with water and so on. Also it says the "windows of Heaven" were opened. Now I can think of at least one other place that phrase is used. And Jesus went to those after he rose from the dead, I'd say he did them some good then too. --- In the beginning God said let there be Light. 1 John says this was the Light that was the Light of men. More to think about ..... And in those six "days" what was really happening...or what is it saying?

pretty darn close there George...

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/1956.htm the actual greek word used- 1955 epilusis { ep-il’-oo-sis} from 1956; TDNT - 4:337,543; n f AV - interpretation 1; 1 GK - 2146 { ejpivlusi" } 1) a loosening, unloosing 2) metaph. interpretation