CM

Ok, forget about motives. Where in the heck is Garth's rational logic when you need it :)--> Why even a thesaurus could help you figure out some scriptures. Take "children of disobedience" for instance. "children" could be or mean "offspring". Sheesh, stop being so literal and use your imagination a little bit, God gave it to you. There are a few differing beliefs that I know of on when things like the gathering and resurrections happen and what they actually are. And like you said JBarrax, some scriptures have been ignored. I can think of one whole book of the bible that was put on the "does not apply today" list, besides the gospels even. Go to the source of the writings. At least consider other ways of thinking even. Do anything but don't tell me that God will take back what he Gave as a Gift.

Yeah...somewhere in the middle... Ya know, I always have to go back to the simple things. God is Love. The uneducated can get to know the way as well as those who have studied for long periods of time. Jerry, your questions are valid, and your studies have produced many more questions. Man's little ole brain will never be able to make it all fit together. It takes the Lord himself to show the way. You have to be a little flexible for Him to work. You say this means that or this means this and have come to conclude certain things. It could have a little bit of a different message when seen in a new light. Many are Strong in the knowledge of the scriptures but have not seen it. Not that I've seen it all but I've seen enough to know that what is on the surface of certain scriptures is not what the truth of the matter is. While on the surface of it, there is no lie, within it, with God opening our eyes to it, lies a greater true meaning. This is why the word of life is so well protected. The Lord has to be the one to open our eyes of understanding. I hope you find the answers you are looking for. Go beyond that which you can see in scriptures. Meaning where did these people, including Jesus, get these words in the first place. What God has promised He is able to perform. Therefore be ready, as the scriptures say.

Got a little time here at work... JB- "My own studies over the past two years have lead me to the same conclusion. Salvation is by grace, but inheriting the kingdom seems to be a matter of faithfulness." If you are saved-having experienced the new birth, you have ALREADY entered the kingdom. What you do with it, how you steward such a gift is between God and that person and NOBODY elses business! Of course you can get help from others if you want but that's up to you. This IS what Jesus was talking about....

It's a bunch of bs gladtobeout. Yeah who decides what that christian service is? Who decides which sin will kill eternal life that GOD gave. VF decides? Self serving..... I don't have much time right now but maybe I can get into it more this weekend. And those other scriptures mentioned. Ask questions!!! Like I did on that peter thing and the other set of scriptures. I'm not against anyone-I'm for Life! I'll leave it with this- After having passed from death to life can you pass back to death? My answer is No.

If you want to think that you have to wait till some future resurrection for the new birth/being born again then that's your privilege. I think differently. Born again is a reference to resurrection. And it can happen now. Salvation, wholeness, new birth, all can happen now. While it's not yet fully complete, there are some things that you can count on now. I'm not going to try and prove it to anyone. I've proved it to myself.

These self serving, man made, slavery producing doctrines really .... me off. So I have to try to stay calm and relay a few points on the matter. If one has experienced the new birth then he will know it. The baptism of Holy Spirit and fire is unmistakable. God will not go back on his word. If you have passed from death to life then it is done. Man cannot change what God has done in this matter. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ known the way of righteousness And then to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them You are still free to do this... again entangled therein, and overcome Then this will happen.... the latter end is worse with them than the beginning What was the beginning? The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire What was vomited out? What was the mire? The latter end is worse. What's worse that this person has to deal with? Does VF really know what being born again is? Has he explained it? Doubt it. The person being born again needs no explanation for God/Christ will do the work. All men can do is to try to point you in the right direction. The rest is up to God/Christ. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them. inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God Yep, sorry no good results from this kind of behavior. the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience Our God is a consuming fire....what will survive it?

Wisdom keeps me from saying what I think here. If it is done then it is done. More later maybe....

lol Greek2me....agreed, without God, ain't much there huh. But I believe he is there within each of us. I'd like to redo Garth's signature to- Rational Logic will lead to Faith

CKnapp3 Seems kind of childish to be asking paw to break up a fight. It takes 2 to fight. Why not just drop it rather than continue and escalate into name calling which makes you both look foolish. Why are buttons being pushed? You could both ask yourselves that question.

"Because of the intrinsic value and results of behaving wisely/morally in and of itself." Within that is the fear of punishment. Meaning that you will not get the value and results desired if you do not behave wisely/morally. Fear of punishment is religion for sure. But I don't believe that is or should be the motivating factor behind godly men or those that seek god. Same factor applies in both-value and results. To fear God is not saying fear punishment. It's not saying to be afraid of God. Fear missing the value and results.

There was so much hatred embedded in the class that it is a true testimony that love can overpower hatred every time. That's why many left twi imo. Because the effects of pfal were beginning to become self evident. I believe in love. I doubt seriously if even Wierwille could see fully what pfal did and was doing. I don't know much more love or strength I can put into the statement I made about pfal being a Black Widow. But it's time to see it as it is.

socks, And it's so sad that these men and women who were Corp, who love God and people, to not have had more to offer then pfal and it's associated stuff. It was their love that I remember in many of the Corps. And that comes from the inside of a person's heart, not from a class.

pfal is a Black Widow. It spins it's web catching people, mates, then it eats them alive. This is not godly. In contrast to becoming fishers of men we were trained to deceive people into taking the class where the "teacher" could then work his "magic". LCM never really understood how pfal worked. That's why his class couldn't do what pfal did. You will always have the option of backing out with God. No need for a web of deceit and lies.

I'd like to get back to what HCW said about pfal working, and WTH's response for a second here. Does pfal work? Depends on the results that you are looking for I suppose. Looking at the results of pfal and even looking at the results of Mike's version of pfal leaves one still without answers to many questions. Signs, miracles and wonders were not on the green card as a benefit of the class but it was taught within it and supposedly we were instructed on how to bring these to pass, and how they work. Manifestations were also taught and explained about how they work too. Along with fruit of the spirit and many things. And for that and the rest of the promises of pfal-going by pfal and the kjv, it will not work. Never has and never will. It gave us very little real instruction on spiritual matters in sessions 1-8. And 9-12 are just plain wrong imo. So, personally, I had to step back away from pfal and the many books and classes that go with it, and get it out of my thinking and life. Which took some doing and a lot of help from others. And go by what I believe are the simple things that are in the bible and proceed from there. Sort of rebooted my brain so to speak. And then I was free to test other viewpoints and ways of thinking. Yes, free to test, to take a little step into different directions and then free to back out as I please, or proceed further, still maintaining the option to back out. And then from there, by God's grace, I have seen some of His promises come to pass in my life. And I'm quite confident that He will come through with the rest of His promises as I grow in understanding of what the promises really are.

I hope that don't sound like I'm focusing on man again. I think of it as taking a step forward to want to know God/Christ then taking a step back and letting him reveal it to us.

Amen brother! :)--> Election....hmmmmmm Is that where God elects some but not others? Does God or the person have more to do with it. I think it's a 2 party decision.... I think God wants all to know Christ. In other words if someone wants know Christ I don't think he will be denyed. Preconceived ideas are usually the thing holding people back from opening up to God opening the eyes of our understanding imo.

Yes-TheEvan....yeah God does the freeing. There is a little required on our part though. Just to reach out for it. Yeah alfakat-the focus was on man and not God... Mark-predestination...what a tough nut to crack. The call is out to everyone I think. I haven't got into the subject much myself but God is Love-that I believe. If something is going to go to eternal torment we don't want it anyway. Problem is that the thinking is that one person or another is destined for eternal whatever. A different perspective would be that what we individually will be sifted as wheat. Instead of mankind as a whole. Separating what's inside the person instead of separating people.

A little more to chew on TheEvan... and I'm not calling you a fool btw we are probably on the same wave length-just limited by the words we use 1 Corinthians 15:35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. the dead raised up is talked about in Romans and other places... alive from the dead-now that which thou sowest is not made alive, except it die a seed which is dead by itself....sown....will bring forth life

Free from sin- Of course a person can still sin, but that is his mistake. And not taking advantage of being made free from sin.

Romans 6:6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7For he that is dead is freed from sin. Romans 6:11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Romans 6:18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. Romans 6:22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. There are more scriptures for the subject. Something has to die in order for there to be Life.

A matter of the heart's choices... Slavery....I suppose you could call it that. It's a choice to be made. Choosing to do the Lord's will, is a choice therefore slavery in it's many possible definitions could be what it is. Taking yourSELF and doing God's will. Or taking yourself out of the picture and see what it is that is there within. Of course God's will is another debate I suppose. Some things are clear, others are not. A progressive growing imo. Things that are clear you can count on-like Love-number one. A slave to sin? I look at differently. It's not our fault that this happened. But choices can be made wether or not to FREE yourself from it. It has to come from the heart, the desire to know, to get answers. A deep desire to know God. I believe He respects that. What does it mean to be saved? What are we saved from? Death? And more? What will be saved? What replaces that sin nature? Is it still there but can be beaten? And where does the new nature come from? What does it mean to be born again? A BIG question? Will all be saved? lol We shall see. Can a person be pure evil? And nothing more?

I agree with TheEvan. Stay flexible...we all just know in part as Paul said. Staying dead set on one thing stops it from growing and unfolding on it's own. The truth brings Peace as some of it's fruit. No need to get all up in arms about it when someone thinks differently. One day we will know even as we are known...

btw-I didn't read all of that long answer myself. But I think things are simple and uncomplicated. They have to be for me to get it. The Lord will come, not something to fear to those doing right. Jesus talked about his coming a lot. I won't quote the scriptures, everyone here can read I reckon. Simple - yeah When will he come? For each individual there will be a time for it.

posted by lindy- Not fear or bribery but just the way it is. Like your post though.

That's a long answer.... Not to put down Def's answer but here's a short one.... Cause of what you have to go through when the Lord comes....and he will sooner or later to everyone. Peace