CM

Trying to live by the letter of the Law-the bible-new or old testament-kills. It's the spirit that gives life. Look at those verses in this light. You cannot make the bible work and give life on it's own. It will kill. Haven't we learned anything from our experience in twi? V & Co. are taking things literally from the bible and trying to apply it today. It will not work. Go back and look at the one who started this thread and see what thoughts it promoted there.

Well actually we have a lot from him without the new birth. We do have everything we need to find him. Just have to look. And technically he is our Father (new birth or not)because he started this ball of humans rolling in the first place. But some good points there HCW. Yeah...he wants us alive not dead...

I have a few more thoughts that might be able to comfort your hearts concerning this subject. Hopefully it will help. The words written in the bible addressed certain people at that time in their lives. If you try to apply it now literally, without the Lord's direction, it will not work, it will never work like that. We tryed it in twi and it didn't work, it will not work like Vince is trying to make it work. We are to learn the scriptures and learn from other sources as well. That old saying-the word of God is our only rule of faith and practice-will not work. The Lord will put it together for you as you just live. He will bring it to your memory and open our eyes to it. And most likely not when you are reading the scriptures. But just take your time and learn them, especially what Jesus said, and the rest of the bible, what it says, and the Lord will open it to you as he wills. But here is what we do- Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? Ask, seek and knock. Everyone is at a different place in their lives. So what he will show you may seem like the thing that everyone else needs. But it's for you, and you can teach it as the Lord directs from within. Now personally I've probably screwed this up more then once. But we just move on and hope that things will help people. Like all this talk about fire and hell. If you have experienced the new birth, it continues to be an unfolding thing as we just live. No need to get anxious about seeing more, it'll come to you, just continue seeking and it will open up. There is no end to how much you can see. That fire is a good thing you know? It will not even leave a scar. It just seems like hell especially if you have been way off the truth and have even hurt people with it. But Forgiveness is real, very real. Earlier I said that the baptism of Holy Spirit and fire is unmistakeable. I was wrong. You may not really know what is happening to you. So you may need help from others. E-mail me and I will give you my phone number if you want to talk. Or we can just e-mail back and forth. I don't have all the answers but may be able to help. If you have experienced the new birth you have passed from death to life. We are to comfort each other concerning this not put doubts about it in each other. That fire that will try everyones work for those who have the new birth will not hurt. You have escaped the wrath to come. 1 Thessolonians 1:9For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. turned to God - past tense, already done which delivered us - past tense, already done we only have part of that which will come from heaven Some say it's right after this mortal body passes away Some say there will be a future gathering together Both beliefs are from those who have experienced the new birth. I think it's right after this mortal body passes away. Why would God wait to bring you to the fullness of what you have received? If this is true and they are in the new heaven and earth then don't waste your time trying to talk to them because for them this old heaven and earth is gone. Titus 3:3For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. We are saved by Grace not by works. Of course we are encouraged to do good works, we need that encouragement. But not threats, we do them with love or it's a wasted effort anyway. For those who have not experienced the new birth and know it, don't worry about it. It'll come in time-if you continue to ask seek and knock. If you think you have the answers by some special formula like many come up with from the bible. You most likely have stopped asking, seeking and knocking. Their is no "doctrine" that will save you. God does the saving. For those who pass away without having experienced the new birth, is still some what of a mystery to me. I don't know what they will have to deal with. Wrath, yes, but what that means I haven't quite put my finger on it yet. Many people have done great things for others but have not experienced the new birth. Others, of course, have done some very bad things but have not experienced the new birth. But can a person be 100% all bad? I don't think so. And others just cruise through life, not doing anything really wrong and do some good stuff, thinking that they will just have to accept death in the end. So I think it's going to be an individual thing. Not some group kind of wrath. As always I believe He works individually with every one on everything. Our God is a personal God I do know Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man (this includes the old testament people) And God is Love. Whatever wrath or fire that has or had to be experienced may be, or seem like hell to deal with, but will be gone and forgotten in the new heaven and earth.

Vince & Co. are promoting a deadly doctrine. It promotes thoughts of suicide, not Life and living FREELY to do the Lord's will from the Heart with Love by the Spirit of God. God loved us First and he Gave. We are to Give from the Heart of Love not by threats. Do not make the bible your IDOL.

I've looked at about 10 other english Bible versions & they spin Ephesians 1:14 more like this: Most of them speak of the "earnest" as a down payment, or deposit that guarantees that there is definitely more to come than that.I'm thinking the new body, living in the new heaven & earth thing is the balance of the promise, secured by the down payment. I lean that way because the Word does speak specifically about our works, judgement and rewards, in terms of keeping or losing rewards. Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away Noone in the new heaven and earth will remember what was burned.

btw, I don't know if you are saved or not and at this point I'm leaving this conversation a promise is a promise My Father didn't lie.

But like I mentioned earlier Forgiveness is as real as Wrath

everyone will sin Paul included. Sometimes even on purpose. If what you are saying is true then we are all just wasting time trying to do it right. Eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die. -- Passed from death to Life or not. Some just get a glimpse of it, others can see it very clearly. Soon enough those who have Life will have the full realization of it when they shed this mortal body and put on immortality. Heaven is closer than you think. Whoever you are, Jb, will continue after the passing away of your mortal body. How much hell you will have to go through is not my call.

I suppose I picked the most extreme case I could think of, picking Paul to illustrate the point. Plus you got a little extra on different beliefs about a few things. But man I tell you these people who come up with some of these doctrines, do so because they really don't have the truth. So they have to come up with something to keep their herd in line. Sorry Raf-motives again. I'll give 'em an out on the motives thing-Or they are just mislead by their own thinking. If one has truly tasted the good word of the Lord, gets the new birth, and then turns his back on it and works contrary to the Lord's will. He's gotta be one dumb person. O he'll still have his seat in the heavenlies if he really is born again and be happy with it, but look at what he missed out on now and the future rewards for eternity. You can get a taste of the good word of the Lord and not follow it through to the new birth. Usually because of fear or just plain selfishness. Some take what little they did taste and use it for their own selfish power ego trips. Just guessing I would say that Vince and company have not tasted the good word of the Lord.

And you can e-mail me when ever you want.

Jb-the coming of the Lord is from within-the new birth is from within. God gave us the ability to handle it and will not give you more then you can handle. That's why I say be flexible and the scriptures say be ready because you don't know when the Lord will come. But it can happen this day or another day. New light will happen. Greater understanding. Remember-all things become new. Yeah....new light, some things that we have held to as the truth will not hold up when held up to the light of God. Get your sh!t together and don't leave anything undone. Be reconciled with your enemies as much as you can. Live as godly as you can. Live love as much as lies within you. Forgiveness is as real as the wrath of God. God is able to burn all the bad out from the day that you were born till now and replace it with His Love. And he will not forsake you, he will stick with you. He will not go back on his word and promises. I got to catch my breath a bit before saying much more.... Breath all the way out, as much as you can, then breath in deeply. Helps rejuvenate the soul/spirit. And it helps if you happen to have to face your own demons and dragons. The Spirit of God is a Fire and it needs air. I will e-mail you when I know what to say.

It's the promised coming of the Lord. Not return, he's still around here ya know, even for the unsaved. The new birth is from within.

(should of named this the freaking Ken Brown thread-I met him once, so what) Anyway.... Notice it says gatherING not gatherED. It's a gathering-a work in progress. The dead in Christ shall rise first, then we that are alive shall join them! Doesn't that say something about wether or not the dead are alive. Who's first to reach the complete fullness of our salvation huh? Who's already there before we get the new birth and join them? Who's in Christ and with Jesus. We that are alive and remain shall join THEM. Seated in the heavenlies with the new birth? You can count it man. Philipians 1:21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. 25And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith; 26That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again. Paul knew his old fleshly body was giving out on him. But hung in there as long as he could for others sake. "having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ" you got that right, me too, but we stay in these fleshly bodies as long as we can for others don't even think about suicide-that's insane, kick that thought out anytime it pops its ugly head up. What he did for others also did much for himself... He wasn't alive for himself anymore but lived for Christ/God and his will. Something died-his old man nature. Something got born, made alive. He had a choice daily, even moment by moment who he was alive for. The dead old man(which is there inherently) or the new man. But he made his choice and stuck to it. It doesn't say anywhere in the bible that you will loose eternal life if you go back to that old man nature which would be worse. What would Paul have to face again if he went back to killing believers when he departed to be with Christ! What kind of wrath of God would he have to face again? I'd say the wrath of God did some piece of work on this man. Just think a moment about what he had to face. It was so much that it blinded him for 3 days and nights. That took some COURAGE to live through. And to come out preaching Christ. Yeah...some piece of work my friends. Very serious and powerful stuff....

Ok now 5... Jb-"but for one person at a time?" You got it dude, gathering together slowly (from our pov) but surely. Our God is a personal God. I told you there are differing beliefs about this and here again I'm probably not relaying the message with the right words that will help you see or consider a different perspective. If we are to be all one in Christ then some things are going to get the wrath of God, it'll only burn for a little while, let it go, let God work. But there ain't no mind reading going on, or likemindedness as we were taught. Christ is the head of the body. The chief cornerstone.

by def59 Nice point def. I'm probably talking too much myself. 4 posts in a row...relax cm, plant and water is the best anyone can do, God must give the increase I just want so much for people to see and know that I can't hold back sometimes. Back to temperance. I must bite my toungue when I don't have the right words to relay the message that explodes in my head and burns in my heart.

And I'm just a babe in Christ and probably entertaining those who have matured in it. But I can see a little bit..... Back to the subject- Are we seated in the heavenlies or not? Has He given us Life or not? God is not a liar!

This is how the eyes of understanding can be opened. Because He is the bible, the Word Living. Drop the preconceived ideas about who Christ is. Let Him show you. It will not all happen at once but sometimes it comes pretty fast.

Most excellent point indeed. And where is that Christ? Our Lord. It's Christ in you the hope of glory! Is he there are not? Did he COME or not? And where did he COME from? From within or from without? The Coming of the Lord is being born again-Christ in you. So many people say they are born-again yet may not have experienced the new birth. I'm not the one to judge wether or not they are, they will see it first hand.

It's in the gospels.... Christ coming is mentioned in many places but each man in his own order in Corinthians going to bed now, talk more soon I hope btw i didn't say "You're saying that Jesus Christ has already come back" I said he will come to each one of us sooner or later. His promise to the 12 came true, it will for us too.

Is there a brick wall or something that has stopped consideration of some points I'm bringing up? Perhaps a veil.... Do I go too far off the trail you are on for you to turn and look. Maybe I'm not using the right words, but are you getting the idea? Is anyone listening? Just wondering....

i'm not trying to make too lite of the matter it is some very serious and powerful stuff

I can say that one old teaching tape that could be playing in the back of the head is- "the word of god says what it means and means what it says....etc..." Give that one the boot out the door. Take a fresh look at some of this stuff. Ya know the wrath of God might not be a bad thing for us. If God thinks it's bad then we don't want it hanging around anyway. And it just might not be talking about people, but the bad that is in each of us. Hell let it burn....marshmellows anyone?

Those people in the first century didn't have Matthew through Revelations to refer to, debate over or develop doctrines from. How did they do it? Get the new birth, teach it to others. Must be more to it then we think. Jb-"It would be nice if the Lord came back tomorrow and cleared all this up huh?" Jesus came and went then came again as promised. -this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven- The Lord will come in due time to each of us. Sooner or later. He has already come to some. Be ready.

Isn't it interesting that Jesus never wrote any of the Bible? the here and now is where godly things can happen

O there you are garth, sorry i was typing when you posted.