CM

The angels came to Mary before Joseph and Mary had sex. The angels came to Joseph after they had sex and Mary was found to be pregnant. And it doesn't say who knew about it either. But Joseph did know.

How do figure that? If you don't mind answering. Joseph and Mary had sex which made her pregnant before they were to be officially married. So Joseph was thinking about putting her away secretly so she wouldn't have to go thru the public scrutiny or consequences. I'd say that's love! Plus it doesn't say how long they would keep it a secret either. Then the angel appears and explains to Joseph what happened and what to do about it. What's so hard to understand once our twi teaching on this is put out of the way? The number 3 reasoning doesn't hold up to many other things in the scriptures. Like you must be born of water and spirit. Joseph and Mary was his fleshly parents and God was his spiritual Father when he was born spiritually. He was to be of the seed of David not God. Physical birth and spiritual birth. And there is absolutely no evidence to support number 2.

After I posted these same thoughts on another forum, one of the posters told me about this site- http://www.atozphotoshop.com/biblesite/Stu...VirginBirth.htm

No problem Song, Your thoughts are welcome anytime.

Yes-me too-stick with it!!!

Abi-I'm staying with the bible to a degree, and not so much literal but spiritually understanding it. For instance dead in sins could be spiritually dead because it has not come to life yet by birth. Not that it isn't present within a person.

Well song-lets find some scripture on the blood thing and give it some thoughts...and thinking...

Colossians 3:1If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Just a few thoughts on the subject...so far

Ephesians 2:1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)--> "who were dead in trespasses and sins" Could be the reverse of alive in Christ.

I will take this into consideration Abigail. It makes sense to me too. It says we are born dead in trespasses and sins, not born in sin-there could be a difference.

Stop pushing an enslaving doctrine. Quit trying to make people serve you. Back off of pfal for a while then maybe you can see what was really good about it. Seek only to serve the one true God and not yourself Live Love.

The only reason I say purified is because I think his blood was pure and sinless. So possibly it was just the seed. Thinking his blood was pure and sinless could be just my imagination though.

so what's your point?

Yes song I believe the egg would be too because of this- This would be purifying. Not only the egg but the whole process that began in Mary's womb imo.

Matthew 1:18Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. 19Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. 20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. 21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. 24Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 25And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. before they came together could mean to complete the marriage instead of intercourse for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost of = together with I still think that Joseph had to contribute the seed and that the Holy Ghost purifyed it. Happy Father's Day Joseph!

Luke 1:26And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. 36And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. 37For with God nothing shall be impossible. 38And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her. I suspect that Joseph is actually the Father of Jesus. What exactly did happen when that "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee" happened to Mary? Could it possible that they had intercourse? God purifying Joseph's seed to impregnate Mary? This would certainly be staying in line with the law. Being in the spirit or the shadow of the Highest is purifying. Jesus was of the seed of David. I'm not trying to minimize what Jesus did but rather look at the greatness of what He did and accomplished. Cause I believe He is the highest God now in subjection to His Father, God. They are one. Mary was not pregnant untill after the encounter with the angels. "behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son"-thou shalt-future tense... As Jesus explained to Nick "a man must be born of water and spirit" This would also include Jesus. Plus I don't see where Joseph accused or said anything about Mary being with another man. The angels explained what happened. Some say that it's a young woman who will bring forth the Messiah instead of a virgin- Googling "virgin birth definition" brings up some interesting stuff. At this point I think that Jesus' spiritual birth happened before he said "I must be about my Father's business". But not at his physical water birth. Joseph and Mary were very young and spiritual people. I mean after all they did have angels talking to them. And they taught Jesus many things. So yes Jesus' spiritual birth at a very early age. But spiritual birth does not automatically give you all the answers. Although a lot of things are answered there is still a growing time or process. If we continue with it and not turn away. I don't think anyone can handle it all at once. The Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Much like Moses who learned much from those with him from where he was brought up before his showing in Egypt. And like Paul who spent many years with the disciples of the Lord before making the impact he did. Like the twelve who I think were born spiritually when Jesus breathed in and said "receive ye the Holy Spirit". We are born with spirit in us, and that Spirit will be born, uncovered, revealed in it's due time for each individual. Staying with the Love of God is the sure thing. I don't think that Jesus had anything extra that we don't have access to. He had to be tempted in all points as we are. He had to die a man's death on the tree. But as a man because of his spiritual birth he could declare that "I and my Father are one" because of the Christ. Because he learned and grew as the scriptures say. He made himself one with God. By freedom of choice Jesus did what he did to redeem us. Jesus is the way the truth and the life. He is our example set in the gospels.

1 Kings 15:5 Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite. This is not the same as VPW.

This is the key Allan. What is prayer. And fear is not a sin in and of itself. Positive believing is not a sin either, in and of itself. Asking in prayer will reveal what to believe. And more importantly what to pray for...

And when will you do this Mike? The opportunities have presented themselves many times and you refuse to participate but choose rather to hold to doctrines of devils, words of men and your own selfish motives. Your angle of illusion and illusion of an angle escapes even your own spiritual understanding.

Here we see one using words that others have used in communicating truth. It is the Spirit that is in us that we must rely on. Not the word of men.

No problem Belle, Focusing on substance is not necessarily looking for signs if you are looking for truth. Knowing what it isn't helps too. Twi had substance but very little truth. Their substance was man's interpretation of scripture. And a great lack of self-control. We are to learn the scriptures and let God show us what he is saying. The carnal mind or carnalmindedness cannot see it. Nothing wrong with having the carnal mind at all. It's part of the package that is built into us just like Spirit is built into us. So the misunderstandings of many subjects in the scriptures is due to relying on the carnal thinking instead of the spiritual. It's a process. We learn what we can from many angles and let the spirit show us. As the spirit shows us the truth the carnal-minded thinking of the meaning of a verse or subject is replaced with the greater truth that God wants us to see. So there you have where the "carnal man" dies in favor of the truth, spiritual understanding which is power. Many people are at different points of spiritual understanding. We are to have respect and love for each other regardless. Communicating to each other can help a lot with spiritual growth.

btw-my name is Clay Mannix...

No offence taken at all from you or Belle. And I understand what you are saying. The Bible is a spiritual book and must be understood spiritually rather then just what is on the surface. Verses come to memory because they apply to what I'm talking about. Sure it sounds strange to some. But there it is in the scriptures. I intend to explore more of it and understand more. We have been taught that death is a bad thing. In the context of what I was saying it's a very good thing.

I wasn't yelling... Nor am I Craig Martindale. The way things are said- satori said that I was using King James english instead of my own. I just happen to understand what I said, King James english or not. I am concerned about how I say things and that it communicates. But I can not do much about how it is received. And there are more listening then you may expect. Belle is recently out of twi and I understand exactly what she means. I have experienced the same or similar events myself. I will not stop using King James english just cause that fool (lcm) did and abused it's heart. If and when I can put it in different words I will cause I have that freedom to do so as well as everyone else.

satori by focusing on the way things are said rather then what is said is a good way to miss the message just cause it's not said the way you prefer doesn't mean that what is said is not of value Jesus talked in many ways... Would you reject his words because you don't understand it by the way he said it or would you at least consider them...