CoolWaters

Exactly. I started paying attention more in PFAL as soon as vp uttered the line, "You can't offend a dead man." It was the permission I needed to fight off my family. I have never quite forgiven myself for labelling my grandmother as "housing darkness" when she had cancer...and for telling her, near the end, that she was doing it to herself and that if she truly "loved god" she would "believe" better. If there's such a thing as "going to hell", I'm not gonna go because of my "wrong believing"...but because of what I did to my grandmother (and others) from my high and lofty seat of being "right on". Sigh. ?????????????

OK....how does one know what kind of graphic card one has?

{{{{{Mandii}}}}

Well said, rascal.

Those who use the "word" to control (and you two or three or so here know who you are)... All over the place these same people are admitting to their own lack of willingness to do something (as in when somebody admitted they didn't abundantly share for years) but then turn around and demand that others do something. Just like in TWI..when TWI leadership demanded things...like... "homos" be purged from the ranks...then turned around and placed a homosexual pedophile as a branch leader who eventually went to prison for his crimes. wives submit unto their husbands...then turned around and told those same wives to turn away from their husbands and sleep with the "real" heads...the "leadership". people give their lives to servitude in "the ministry"...then turned around and refused to serve. people choose between "natural man" colleges and twi colleges...then turned around and put their own children in "natural man" colleges. everthing be kept "in house" and that no man take a brother before a "natural man" court or laws...then turned around and used those very courts and laws against people. Maybe this post should have gone on the what is way brain thread...

Oh jeeze, rascal, don't even get me started about using "the word" as a weapon to enforce sexual gratification...!! Grrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!! {{{{{Fencie}}}}} There are no words...that kind of pain is a deep pain... Dot... Ev'rybody...

Now I get what's going on with you, OM...

Rascal, One of the things I'm enjoying the most about life without patriarchal dogma is that I determine how my life is going to be lived...not my husband, not "leadership", not anybody else. The day I looked my husband in the eye and said, "Look, bubba, you've not been so good about running your own life, I'm taking mine back...and I don't give a flying f***** what 'the word' has to say about your so-called 'head of household', either."...well, that was day to remember!

Vickles, Yes, it is a difficult place in people's heads after twi. It would certainly have to be only a suggestion offered as a resource option. What I was thinking was that it would be a mistake to carry people financially for more than a couple or so weeks because that would simply cause a transfer of dependency from twi to whoever was helping the people. ********************* PapaJohn, The discussion so far has been mostly about actual living arrangements to help people for anywhere from a couple of weeks to a few months. Quite frankly, I don't know many people who could afford the financial responsibility without help. If there are people who can, or if the goal is to simply get people from point A to point B, then perhaps what needs to be done is simply gathering those names on a list, have one contact person with that list, and somehow getting that contact person's name/info out to those leaving twi...and this talk of a 501©3 or of safe homes or whatever would be pointless.

Making a wrong right... [This message was edited by CoolWaters on January 31, 2004 at 20:45.]

OM, do you have any inclination as to how one "gets over it"? Or what processes are needed?

Great question! (At first I thought it was going to be a thread about how someone keeps away from idolotry. Glad it wasn't!) I've often wondered about this, too. I mean, seriously, if one is talking about the Creator, what can one do to show love to such a being? From all of my looking into other religions, I have found that most agree on how to do this. The bible puts it pretty simply, so I'll use the bible here. So, in answer to the question, I show my love for the One by taking care of people to the best of my ability.

I'm pretty sure that most extwi folks would donate something. Beyond donations, if a 501©3 were formed then other funding sources could be utilized. There is a big push at the Fed level for faith-based recovery programs. (Being faith-based does not mean that the recipients would be required to participate in any religious training or activities.) There will be an immediate culture shock when first coming out of twi, but remember that all of us here did OK. It's not advisable to create another dependency situation...and it is human nature to do better when relying upon oneself. I think that a couple of weeks of recuperation and adjustment would be acceptable. If people need more than that, there are other programs in nearly every community. Also, there are always small hotels in every town that are struggling and will work with an organization on weekly and monthly rates. As for jobs/income, part of the structure of the organization might ought to include partnerships with businesses that would agree to hire and train (if needed) folks. OJT is a big tax reduction for businesses...especially if the person hired is low- to moderate-income because the employer pays only half of the taxes for the first year. And there's no need to re-invent the wheel...there are many, many programs already in place to help people in such situations. Pride may keep people from utilizing such programs, but the programs available include assistance with medical, housing, food, training/re-training, day care, transportation (most programs include repair and gasoline monies...some will even buy a vehicle), etc. Welfare is simply no longer a hand-out program...if an adult is not working, an adult is spending 40 hours a week looking for work either by hitting the streets or at Job Service centers preparing resumes, setting interview appointments, increasing skills, taking classes, or what have you. The follow-up to ensure that a person is doing these things is intense...there's no getting around it without having your benefits immediately stopped. Some of the best entry level jobs in an area go to welfare-to-work participants. Whatever type of effort comes from all of this, I think that the most effective will be an organization that will pull together all of a community's resources.

Dammit! Panty raids were the only thing I had on my "safe" list. Oh the denial I've been so blind to! Sigh.

I held on to the PFAL teachings for many, many years. Then when I awakened, I tossed out everything...even the idea of Jesus Christ. Now that I can look at things without needing them to be word-for-word TRUTH of GOD, I find that there were things in PFAL that are what I consider to be universally applicable...in moderation. Some examples: I no longer think that believing=receiving, but I do think that it is simpler to reach a goal if I can visualize it happening. I no longer believe that "fear is the sand in the machinery of life", but I do think that one must learn to differentiate between founded fears and unfounded fears...and that one must also learn to function without the fear being the determining factor. I no longer believe that figures of speech make something "truer than true", but I do think that using a figure of speech can communicate an idea more effectively. I feel that "Receive, Retain, Release" is a basic tenet of learning. I no longer believe that there are "5 things to know before receiving anything from God", but I do think that some of those items are things it makes sense to consider when making certain decisions...like what's available, how to receive it, what to do with it after you've got it, and getting your needs and wants parallel when buying a car or choosing a college. Basically, now that I've removed the religion, I am able to utilize some basic principles that appear universally in just about every "success" program...and I can admit that if I hadn't run into PFAL, I'd probably have become a Tony Robbins junkie for awhile...(and don't tell anybody, but I've kept all of his material... :D--> ).

NP. I'm not sure about your ISP...check it out before you take my word for it...I don't know everything...lol If you do the unix version of the web hosting, it's the easiest, imo...it's also what I have, so I can help with any questions. LOL

You know, if you ask the universe a question, it will give you the answer. Sometimes even if you don't ask... After re-reading my post, I realize that I do understand what I said I didn't understand...because I did it to someone back on trance.chat... Although I have apologized for that many times before...now I really get it what I did...and I apologize from the bottom of my heart...with understanding this time.

simon, TYVM. As I said before, my reactions were primarily due to me being defensive...no real offense committed by anyone. And, shoot, I've derailed plenty of threads in my day... *************** Johnny, I didn't think you felt that the situation was abuse...that was my take on it. Sorry I wasn't clear about that. ************* JT, TYVM for sharing. I'm sorry that happened to you, and I understand the sarcasm. :D--> ************** Dot, Yes....exactly the kind of thing I was thinking about when starting this thread. TYVM for posting! **************** ExC, I knew you'd understand...I learned it from you. :D--> mwah! **************** Abi, More of some of my exact thoughts when I started this thread. TYVM! ***************** Now that I've had a chance to back away from the emotions of the topic, I've also had a chance to realize that the topic cannot be pinned down to just one question or just one discussion. Sometimes talking about everything else but the "topic" is the first step in getting around to the "topic". Ya know? These things are difficult to talk about. It's even more difficult if one must endure blame and shame...again. Having worked with abuse survivors for most of my life, I can say absolutely that there is no concrete definition of abuse. The argument can rage on and on, but there will be no "Aha!" moment of definition. Remember, we're talking sexual abuse. At least half of the reason that abuse is so hard to define is because the victims don't really know where the line is drawn...until it happens. One of my posts on ExC's "adultery vs soul stealing" thread ( http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=9...2135#1646092135 ) goes into a partial explanation about this and says in part: The rest of the post is worth reading...especially when it comes to "defining" abuse. All this being said, one of the very most disturbing things I have seen happen here is... A person posts his/her story and defines it as abuse. The pain is obvious. Sometimes the guilt and the shame are obvious. Often it is obvious that the person is still not totally "over it". Then along come the blamers...the ones who have to drive the dagger deeper into the heart by repeating the very things that were said to cover up the crap in the first place...and the ones who will argue their position without really reading or considering any other post, much less the post of the person they are torturing. That's the hardest thing for me to cope with here. I don't understand why any person would feel the need to make things even more painful. I don't understand how any person can read the documents here, read all of the stories here, see the hearts and lives that were shredded, and still want to carry water for the good ol' boys and girls who made it all so bad. And I don't like to see people hurt all over again. Some day I may find a way to get beyond these things...but something in me doesn't really want to get beyond being appalled and offended at cold-hearted callousness.

I don't mind if you link to my images. As long as I don't go over my allotment, there's no problem. That's not to say everybody go for it! LOL For very cheap web hosting I use http://www.hostdepartment.com/index.html#orderhosting Most ISP web space provided does not allow remote linking, but if you want help with trying it out, I will be glad to help.

Mike, Thank you. Please know that my jumping on you wasn't about you in particular. I was in defense mode...so I was jumping on everybody. Nothing personal (to you or OM or Long Gone or anyone else), although I'm sure it felt personal. I can't get into the abuse discussions for very long because I tend to relive some situations when I hear some phrases or "buzz words". That's on me. I know to back out before I get like that. I just didn't do it soon enough this time. Have a great day. :)-->

Long Gone, OK. I'm backing out of the topic and other such topics for a little while...I'm getting too defensive.

Oh geeze, Mike. I'm sorry. Sigh.

Edited because I was such a beavis... [This message was edited by CoolWaters on January 31, 2004 at 20:41.]

UNCLE!!!!!!!!!!! Nevermind. Who in the hell is going to post their experiences knowing that there's folks waiting in the wings to jump on them? Is that you all's point?

Sigh. The raging debates over what does and does not constitute abuse have been had over and over here. Nobody agrees. So what? That doesn't change what a person went through or how their lives were hurt. I was hoping that some men would want to talk about what happened to them...or how they felt about what happened to those they knew/loved. Arguing the point is not what I was looking for here. So, Long Gone, do you have a story of your own sexual abuse in twi? That is the topic of this thread.