CoolWaters

OM, When I finally broke away from twi (the organization...but not yet the stuff left in my head), it was with the help of a therapist that specialized in cults. She had grown up in the same town as Jim Jones and had watched him go from a local kid to what he ended up being. One thing she pointed out to me was that people are never totally bad or totally good...and that is how cult leaders end up as cult leaders. I can only speculate what would have happened had vpw brought everything to a halt, repented, and then started over again if he still felt the "calling". But I can say without any speculation that if a person knows that what they are doing has turned sour, the responsibility of what happens lies heavily upon that person's shoulders. It's like a family (kinda). If a very good, wonderful, loving mother becomes depressed and perpetrates or allows terrible, terrible things (violence, sexual abuse, etc), wouldn't it be the smart thing for her family to remove her from the home and get her into treatment? ?????????????

WG...mind if I use that quote in my "Broken logic?" thread? ?????????????

Zix, Well...the logic would seem to agree... --> ?????????????

OM, The logic of jumping from stopping the problem to never existing is broken, imo. But back to the original statement that so many got blessed, why stop it? You see it in every day life, OM. Some "upstanding citizen" is found to be a rapist or a pedophile or a thief. So many people got so much good from this person, why put him/her in jail for his/her crimes? Why stop him/her? ?????????????

I just got this used on me from another thread... " Lots and lots of folks got blessed in TWI-1. Why should it have been stopped when so many folks benefitted?" ?????????????

OM, Your post is one for the "Broken Logic?" thread I just started... ?????????????

These days I look back at things I used to think and wondered, "CW, didn't that seem like broken logic to you?" Some examples: It doesn't feel right to watch people beat bruises into their children, but "the word" says that is the only way to drive the devil far from children...so shut up and let "the word" work. I can't offend a "dead man", so I have the license to say anything I want to people...so long as they aren't "born again". "God" allowed "his" people to kill the "ungodly" in the OT if they got in the way (pun intended), so if somebody gets killed when getting in the way of a MOG, "god" must have ordained it. These are my "brothers in christ", so it's not really adultery. Husbands are the heads of their own households, but MOGs are the heads of the body. Therefore, the MOGs decisions overrule a husband's decisions. If you have to have sex to witness to someone, then have sex. As long as I SIT when I get drunk or high, then I'm not really drunk or high...but "in the spirit". It's OK to break man's law when needed (like running red lights to get to twig on time...or stealing from unbelievers to get needs met--like Paul did) because all things are lawful to believers. There are lots more examples (anybody have any others?). Now, I can't even imagine applying such logic in real life... ?????????????

Catcup, 45 mins???!!!!??? There must have been bruises! The last "service" we attended at an offshoot...the "ministers" humiliated one of their daughters for being too ill to perform that morning. Took her out on the porch and verbally assaulted her...loud enough that we could all hear...then brought her in and made her apologize to us...and perform. I sat there humiliated that I was doing nothing...not speaking up...not telling her or any of the children there that this is unacceptable behaviour from parents towards children...couldn't even say it for the benefit of my own son. That was the last straw for me. It was too close to what happened in Alaska... ?????????????

ExC, I know a dog trainer who fully believes that parents ought to implement her training techniques into the raising of their children. She also uses the techniques on her husband. Two things come to mind when I think about this... They don't have any children (by choice...because they didn't want to screw them up...a legitimate concern in their lives). They aren't allowed to babysit their nieces and nephews...or anyone else...anymore. (They watched my son once for 2 hours. He was 8yo at the time. When my hubs and I arrived to pick up my son, they were oh so excited because they had taken pictures of him locked in a dog kennel and were going to put them up on the internet for him...!) Kids and animals...same diff...right? Excuse me while I go barf. ?????????????

This is the first time I ever considered things in quite this way. Always before I had some sort of excuse running around (planted by teaching) in my head...like... It was a corporation, what could he do? (He could have walked away and denounced it all, that's what!) HQ was his family home, where else was he going to go? (He could have done exactly what he demanded others do...move on!) His own children were deeply involved, he had to keep up the facade for their inheritance, at least. (He didn't tolerate such smarmy excuses from anyone else! And, in the end, his children were ousted anyway.) All of these people were his "brothers and sisters in christ", he couldn't just walk away from the "body". (He walked away from his first "body of believers", didn't he? His life proved out that he was never that concerned about the outcome of his actions.) I didn't know I had these cheap trick lines in my brain...until I recently fell for a cheap trick "better understanding" possibility. The bottom line here is that the man at any time could have put a stop to it all. But he didn't. It really doesn't matter why he didn't...what matters is that he had the opportunity to undo what he had done...and he didn't. The fact is that I kept going back for more...even if it was just recently for more of an "understanding". There's really nothing to understand though...except that it was all a charade. I may never know the why's...but I do know it was a tragedy that could have never happened...or at least didn't have to go on as long as it did. But there was always someone like me out there to excuse it all... ?????????????

You gotta deal! :)--> ?????????????

I know you're dead now, but if you can hear me would you please tell me why you didn't stop it all? Your prophets preach that you knew for a long time where you went wrong. How come you never did anything to undo it all? ?????????????

Dan! Whoa! 2 bucks, huh? Wanna sell it to me for $4?????? Please??? LOL ;)--> Now about that definition... OK...so...it's from the Latin gignere or beget. Wow. Suddenly all of the years of being told I was possessed make sense. If I had known all along it was because I was smarter than them, I would have found my current path so much earlier! (I am currently being accused of listening to spirits...so now I know it's because I'm so smart. ) So the alternative to having genius would be described via its antonyms...such as (taken from www.thesaurus.com) impotence paralysis limitation benchwarmer loser imbecile moron devil evil Hmmmmm....sorta says it all, doesn't it? ?????????????

Note to self... Stop.

Edited by CoolWaters to remove personal stuff that doesn't belong on the boards. ????????????? [This message was edited by CoolWaters on February 05, 2004 at 20:26.]

Thank you, Sadie. I really needed to hear that just now. :)--> ?????????????

Mike, Because you and I have spoken so very much on the telephone (at least 15 hours), you cannot isolate one post and act as if that is all you have said to me. You know that I have pondered your words. You know that I have considered your viewpoint. You know that I have set aside my beliefs to give your beliefs the benefit of the doubt. In the end, you stated to me that you would not do that for me. What has all of this cost you, Mike? That is the bottom line question, imo. Whenever a belief system becomes more important than one's spouse, more important than one's children, more important than one's friends, that belief system is no longer functional for humanity. There is no possible way for your belief system to work within a family, within a community, within a city, within a country without it all turning to strife and, eventually, war. You yourself have stated to me that you fully believe that you are in a spiritual war. It is not long before a spiritual war manifests into a physical war. Have you seen a news broadcast in the last 2 years? You see, Mike, zero tolerance with a belief system means zero tolerance of anybody who doesn't adopt the same system getting close enough to be a spouse, a friend, a son or a daughter or a grandchild. You have rejected the very idea that Jesus' most important message is taking care of and for one another. ????????????? [This message was edited by CoolWaters on February 03, 2004 at 9:00.] Edited by CoolWaters to remove personal stuff that doesn't belong on the boards. [This message was edited by CoolWaters on February 05, 2004 at 20:25.]

Mike, I am done with your life's topic. You have taken the very little bit I have told you about myself and my life and pummeled me into a mold and poured me out with very little thought or care about who I am as a human being. It's twi all over again. Been there, done that...now I'm tossing out the mass of rot that spoiled the bath water. ?????????????

nothing...anymore...sorry... ????????????? [This message was edited by CoolWaters on February 02, 2004 at 16:58.]

Mike, I am not insisting upon perfection in anyone. I am insisting that a person measure themselves by, and live up to, their own standards before they impose them upon me. vpw did not live up to even the simplest of the standards his own "center reference for truth" provided. He lied. He stole. He killed (even if it wasn't literally by his own hand, he taught things that lead to death). He destroyed. By his own standards that is the mark of the thief...the adversary...the enemy. And according to his own "center reference for truth", I had better not trust him to teach me anything. ?????????????

Any of them... I'd say, "I hope my life has not lived up to your standards." ?????????????

Personally I rejected Saul/Paul as doing any good a long time ago. If it weren't for Saul/Paul, vpw, lcm et al would not have felt they could justify what they were doing to women. ?????????????

If my chemistry professor had molested/raped me and/or many other women, would I toss out what he had taught me about chemistry? It seems like a simple question when put like that, doesn't it? But chemistry is pretty much a quantifiable subject. When he taught me that , I could prove that one way or another regardless of my feelings. None of what vpw or lcm or billy graham or oral roberts or jim jones or david koresh or anyone else has taught about god and the bible can be proven one way or another. It is a leap of faith to adopt anybody's teaching concerning these matters. Which means that the character of those teaching these matters must be measured according to their own standards. As has been pointed out here, the very thing vpw, lcm et al was teaching about states certain standards as to who should/should not be believed. vpw, lcm et al have proven to be at least immoral and false prophets. The bible itself exhorts one not to believe such teachers of the bible. No amount of argument can change this. ?????????????

To discredit a person...discredit their abilities...discredit their work...discredit their moral fiber...to do this is a weak tool of debate or "proof" in debate. When dealing with way-brain, discrediting vpw, lcm et al may serve to awaken one from the "fog" of following such persons. However, the very foundation of way-brain is "having men's persons in admiration because of advantage." Which means that unless one faces one's own willingness to follow whomever one feels has the advantage, one will never be free from being a follower. In other words, convincing someone that vpw, lcm, et al were reprobate does nothing to convince someone to cease being a follower. To address the thinking processes that brought someone to follow such persons...now there's a strike at the heart of the matter...imo... ?????????????

bumping... ?????????????