CoolWaters

Tee hee ExC. ;)--> ?????????????

I know this, {{{{{ExC}}}}}. You're one of the folks who help my storms to calm. I hope you know this...because if you don't, I need to say so more often. And... Mike can only speak for Mike. I don't know anybody here who has given him permission to speak for them. You are very loved, sister ExC. PS...there's nothing between me and Mike besides what you see here...so don't be fooled...ok? {{{{{ExC}}}}} ?????????????

{{{{{JT}}}}} I don't know how to cope with this sometimes. My own daughter is one of those who were hurt while I kept silent...at least until I burst and couldn't keep silent anymore. She's still so hurt that she won't let me close enough to even apologize. I understand that, though. I've been that hurt. Maybe those of us here who "share the pain" can figure out what it takes to heal up such things... ?????????????

Mike, being kind is not dependant upon who is kind to you. BTW... This is a public forum. As long as we're posting here instead of in PT or via email, anybody can and will read and jump in. ????????????? [This message was edited by CoolWaters on February 05, 2004 at 20:22.]

The hardest thing about looking back on my twi/twi offshoot years is remembering when I kept silent... It makes me cry with shame. I wish I could apologize and undo what I did. ?????????????

{{{{{ExC}}}}} You're grand in my eyes. ?????????????

Geeze Mike...see how you are? That's a pat twi put-down. Even if you think you're loving somebody by saying such a thing, you know the implication and associations behind it all...so why even use it if you really do care about folks' hearts? ?????????????

Well, Mike, I'll give you that going back to the pfal books will help straighten out the difference between TVT and what was actually in the books... But it's never going to straighten out the 27 years I wandered around in the fog looking for love in all the wrong places. Just reading the material you sent me stirred up the "storms" to the point that I was getting physically ill. And worse, I was constantly referencing the bible because things between what vpw was writing and what was in the bible didn't quite match up. I know that you put forth that it's because I have a lack of understanding. Fine. If that's how you want to see it, then see it that way. There may come a day when I won't still feel those reactions. Maybe not. Regardless, what I am doing for my life right now is working for me...and I have the right to reject things that don't work for me...and I have the right to do so without a constant barrage of insults and digs. ?????????????

Which is exactly my point...twi's broken logic...and is it still in my head? These are some of the reasons I still post at GS...to think these things through with the input of others. ?????????????

Fair enough. ?????????????

Emails from you are also blocked, Mike. It's either PT or leave me alone. ?????????????

Modern day trainers worth their weight in salt denounce any training methods that use hitting, kicking, closeting, etc. It's been proven that hitting an animal teaches obedience only when the trainer is around.. It's also been proven that the animals who were hit are no good for things like police work, rescue or companion animals...because they eventually turn. ?????????????

OM, I've often wondered about this thing...because on the one hand, yes, it could be a form of service...on the other hand, however, I Corinthians 13 is very clear. TWI never came close to even beginning to grasp I Corinthians 13, much less applying it. ?????????????

dmiller, I can't look for the reference anymore. Reading Paul's work makes me sick to my stomach...and riles up old stuff in me from twi experiences. What I remember is that I was taught that believers were so ungiving that Paul had to steal bread to eat. Not sure anymore if that is even in the bible... ?????????????

Mike, If you want to go to PT to talk this out, fine. Nobody wants to watch us hash things out. Nobody should be expected to, either. Anyway, it's part of the rules to take personal things away from the boards. Edited by CoolWaters to remove personal stuff that doesn't belong on the boards. ????????????? [This message was edited by CoolWaters on February 05, 2004 at 20:19.]

Hmmmm...good point...I'm just going by a memory from twig or pfal or something I learned in twi. Lemme go look this up... ?????????????

Mike, Either this is projection on your part, or you've not listened to anything I've said. There is a huge difference between standing behind one's personal boundaries and being mad, hurt or whatever you think I am that I need to "cool down". ?????????????

That was the theme one year, wasn't it? So what was meant by "serve"? It surely did not mean helping people in any way. It did not in any way, shape or form mean taking care of one another "in the body". How did twi ever truly serve? ?????????????

{{{{{Abigail}}}}} Gotta tell ya, girl...I've learned a whole lot about thinking from you. ?????????????

Mr P, Glad I'm not the only one! LOL ********* Dartanian, Well, yeah. But it was hit-and-miss on what kind of "leadership" anyone had in an area. That responsibility lay at the feet of the BOD...which, in turn, put it squarely at the feet of vpw...imo. ?????????????

OK, Mr P...gotcha now...whew! This switching back to mornings has done me in....can't even win a Scrabble game... --> ?????????????

Yeah, Ex10...yeah. ********** OM, Restructuring was an option. But I still think that vpw himself should have backed out of things until he was fully repentant and proven as such. He knew that was the best thing he could have done. ************ Mr P, I dunno...we're seeing something like that now with the offshoots...and maybe they aren't as bad as twi was at the end...but they are repeating the same errors. ?????????????

OK. Thanks. ?????????????

Here's another piece of broken logic (taken from another thread...reportedly at the bottom of a pic from twi called "The Trainer"): "Training with love breeds loving obedience." Um, for animals, OK. But for humans the goal is obedience? ?????????????

OM, It could very well be that canning the whole thing because of many (not just vpw or lcm) bad apples is not logical to you. You report a far better twi experience than what I ever had. However, vpw could have and should have (imo) done exactly what he threatened to do so many, many times...take it all down and build it again. Why? Because he knew that the problem was systemic. He knew that the very structure of twi (corporate) allowed...no, required...that there be rank and file...and that such a system would breed the problems that happened in twi. A restructuring is not bad, OM. The Catholic church is doing it now in response to what has happened with pedophilia. But I gotta tell you...when my brother or sister says to me that if I would have just behaved better I wouldn't have been so badly abused...well...that's not logical...especially when they prefer to deny what happened. See? ?????????????