CoolWaters

{{{{{Roy}}}}} Isn't it great!?!?! Life is soooooo good finally being able to relax! You're a pretty good guy, dude. :)--> ?????????????

My daughter's well-being. ?????????????

To me it is obvious that what was sent after christ ascended was for comfort...of self and of others. What is disease if not simply dis (or "un") ease? Healings overcome the discomfort that causes sickness. What is faith if not simply a state of calm? Faith overcomes the discomfort of fear. What are miracles if not simply affirmations of faith? Miracles overcome the discomfort of doubt. What is knowledge if not simply a source of strength? Knowledge overcomes the discomfort of weakness. What is wisdom if not simply successful use of knowledge? Wisdom overcomes the discomfort of failure-related shame. What is discerning of spirits if not simply the successful use of wisdom? Discerning of spirits overcomes the discomfort of being trapped in cyclic dysfunction. What is prophecy if not simply the right thing said at the right time? Prophecy overcomes the discomfort of anxiety. What is interpretation of tongues if not simply an expression of understanding? Interpretation of tongues overcomes the discomfort of discord. What is tongues if not simply a tool to quiet the mind? Tongues overcomes the discomfort of inner turmoil. All of this is as I understand in my life. I do not offer any of this for doctrine or for teaching...but simply for consideration. ?????????????

{{{{{{{{{Everybody}}}}}}}}} These things are hard to post about, hard to read about, hard to think about, hard to remember. I personally thank all who share here... Mr P-Mosh for starting the thread. No matter how often these things get hashed out on these threads, it is serving many purposes to go around another time: the subject is not forgotten, new posters get an opportunity to participate and ask questions or whatever they need/want to do, people get an opportunity to take back a little bit more of themselves that was lost due to what happened, people get an opportunity to rethink their feelings and positions on the subject, people get to say what they wanted to say when it was happening, people get to see how much they have grown, people can see the experience moving back behind them and getting smaller and smaller in the distance of time, and a whole lot of other needed and refreshing things happen when people have the opportunity to talk about what was "in the lockbox" until it no longer has any power. Those who share their experiences. It is very difficult to open up and let it come out. Things buried come to the top...and that can be very frightening and is often very painful...but it is also very relieving to know that it all can be talked about now. Those who are willing to ask honest questions and hear honest answers. I cannot imagine how hard it is to find out that what seemed like such an innocuous group was not. I cannot imagine what I would feel like if I were the one discovering this information for the first time. Those who can do little more than read in horror. This is hard stuff. Those who present disbelief. These are the folks that provide the opportunity to work things out in my head and realize that it wasn't my fault. Although hard and sometimes harsh, this thread and others like it help me loosen the choke-hold of fear and sorrow that silence and isolation breed. And OM, for what it's worth, I want you to know that because of your posts, I have been able to finally find the eye of the storm in the whirlwind echoes of twi's barrages that blamed me, my husband, my daughter and my son. You've stayed around here and taken the brunt of things pent up for many years. Whether you were playing devil's advocate or if you honestly don't see my points, you deserve a hug because you're at least openly expressing the twi-think that built the dungeon called "lock box". {{{{{OM}}}}} אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ

I like this! It made me think...like how breathing in is life and blessing for me...is breathing out life and blessing from me? Verrrry interesting. This one really makes me think deep. Like... A woman in labor begins with long inhale/exhale breathing. When she gets to the really hard part, she pants (heee heee hooo...heee heee hooo...for those of you who would like to remember LOL). Hmmmm! Great out loud thinking, Roy! ?????????????

Well said, Mandii. אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ

Just to bring the original questions of this thread back to the forefront of people's minds: And to bring the responses back to remembrance:

Sorry, OM, I'm not going to play "blame the victim" with you. You've been given facts. You've been given collaborated facts. You've been told how and where to find the documentation. What I think/feel/believe (now or then), or what I did or did not do "right", has no bearing on whether or not there was condoned child abuse in twi. אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ

rascal, Yeah...I know... The topic here is "Child Abuse in TWI". To get into an discussion about whether or not I believe in spanking would be a convenient choo-choo. The problem is that the bible says that to deliver a child from hell, one must beat the child. twi took that verse, handed a weapon to adults, and sent those adults out to "save children from hell". Period. אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ

Duh me...I edited a post instead of replying to a post. Here is the post: First, OM, I edited out the name I called you. My bad. That was childish of me. Second, you said, What is the "right way" to apply "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."? אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ

Absolutely! Based upon the definition of condone, that twig leader absolutely disregarded without protest or censure the hitting of that child. אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ

First, OM, I edited out the name I called you. My bad. That was childish of me. Second, you said, What is the "right way" to apply "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."? [This message was edited by CoolWaters on February 19, 2004 at 11:45.]

I'm sure you did. That's not the question, imo. Try reading the information in some of the links I posted. You'll find out a few things about why you insist you didn't. "We" whom? Speak for yourself. Unless you were at every twig, every branch meeting, every believer's meeting, every one-on-one "teaching" session that each of us are talking about, then you have no idea what any of us were taught. And since you could not possibly have been in all places at all times, you are the one re-writing history to assuage your need to revere people and organizations. I'm one such person. I became one such person after I left twi and found out what I had done and what I had allowed to be done to my daughter. Don't should on people. That's a coward's way of covering up for some personal lack. Not 20-30 years later. It was child abuse then, too. Whether or not anyone recognized it as child abuse is a different matter. Again I suggest you read the information on the links I posted. You'll learn something...if you're willing to learn. Nobody's trying hard at all. Just stating the facts. The facts are supported by documentation. Have you even tried to obtain the documentation? No? I didn't think so. You don't want to know the real history. Ummm...OM...in your first paragraph you say that you hadn't pick up on it. Which is it? Lessee... A limb leader, a branch leader and twig leader go to children's fellowship one day (gawd I wish this were the opening of a joke) and teach all the little boys and girls to obey silently and immediately or get whacked...or worse. Hmmmmm. Who do you want to objectify in this scenario? אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ

JT, TY. If I seem a bit b1tchy right now...I am. Nothing personal to anybody in particular...well, maybe to OM...it's just unbelievable to me the lengths people will go to just so their internal realities won't be disturbed. Yeah, yeah, yeah...I know...I did it all the time just to be able to stay in twi. I still do it without even realizing it. Life sucks and we're all imbecile brunts of a terrible joke. Then the mood passes and I do what I can to learn and grow. אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ

I am saying that in twi those verses were used to condone child abuse. אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ

And there we have it... אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ

And for chapter and verse: Proverbs 22:15 - Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. Proverbs 23:13,14 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. Proverbs 29:15 15 The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame. ****************** If you need more than that, do the legwork yourself. אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ

Some things to learn if you're interested... http://www.leavingabuse.com/why_women_stay.html http://www.letswrap.com/dvinfo/whystay.htm http://www.soencouragement.org/whydowomenstay.htm http://www.watchman.org/profile/abusepro.htm http://www.watchman.org/cults/precond1.htm It's funny how after all these posts and all the links and all the information in the links on this board, GSCI, GSC homepage and on WayDale that some just refuse to learn. אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ

Funny? So glad you're enjoying yourself. What kind of a person sits around and refuses to educate themselves about a subject yet posts as if they know what they're talking about? אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ

Mornin' {{{{{Abi!}}}}} I'm feeling a little rough this morning over another subject here...so I guess I transferred that rough feeling from that thread to this one. Nobody on this thread has given me cause to feel a need to duck. Sigh. Going to get centered now. Probably shoulda done that first... ?????????????

LMAO Rocky!!!!! Me? Well, the mood I'm in this morning about twi, I'd let them woo me back. I'd get reinvolved. I'd be a good little twi-ster. But this time I'd have a camcorder and several witnesses. Infiltration and sabotage! ?????????????

Ya know... I've been thinking about this all yesterday and even dreamed about it last night. If anyone doubts what has been said here, so what? It's not my job to convince anybody. It does not change what happened one whit. It does not change what my daughter and the other children went through and must still deal with even now as adults. If it is too hard for someone to think about the details of who might have known and not acted, too bad. I honestly don't care if that's the worst of what came out of their twi experience. Sometimes I wish that I could take all of the pain these kids live with, bottle it and then spike the punch with it at a "let's talk about the good in twi and the wonderful vpw/bot" party. Anybody want to know more and figure things out? Do the legwork and find the articles and call the people involved. Some of them are still in twi. Others have their contact information out on the 'net. If anybody really wants to know, there's enough information on this thread alone for someone to get the newspaper articles and know. But I don't think some want to know the truth of the matter at all. I think some just want to sit safely behind a computer screen and snipe and belittle and degrade and dehumanize and discredit. Because then life is once again just like it was in twi...or at least close enough to get one through another day. And if people want to b*tch me out for being so callous, tough. I'm tired of being nice about this subject. It's not a nice subject. twi as an organization harbored and coddled mean, demented and twisted low-lifes because that was the nature of it's founder. Period. That's why twi bore the rotten fruit that twi bore. If somebody can't handle this and doesn't like that this is an irrefutable fact, too bad, so sad. $hit happens. Grow up. Deal with it. Be glad that a fallen idol is the worst of your scars from twi. But don't dump the $hit on me, my daughter and other parents and children anymore. אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ

{{{{{ExC}}}}} For me...I have to answer an absolute YES! What happened in my life is that I had (and still have in some ways) a blurred and twisted image of sexuality... which blurred and twisted my image of marriage... which blurred and twisted my image of the concept of bride/bridegroom... which is what made twi's version of things more attractive to me because twi just removed the bride/bridegroom imagery altogether "from this administration". Well. How did I begin to recover from all of that? Quite frankly... I learned about the goddess. (Ducking now.) ?????????????

I repeat this question, OM. אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ

It's 40 degrees out today and the "s" word has been spoken now! I feel a ritual or two coming on... It's nakee time!!!!!!!!!! TYVM sgalot! :D--> ?????????????