CoolWaters

Hiya {{{{{{{{Mo}}}}}}}}}}. Great to see you around! That would be the question I'd like to ask, too. ?????????????

To give the reason, I would have to "out" someone. Not going to do that...it's enough that I know. אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ

rascal, There are some hints in his posts...that I've wondered about for awhile...I think there is a very specific answer to your question...and I knew this day would come... I'm no longer concerned about it...now. אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ

You accusing someone of denial? That would be funny if your denial was about innocuous subjects. אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ [This message was edited by CoolWaters on February 25, 2004 at 13:17.]

A child's life-long personality is shaped and nearly totally molded by time they are 3 years old. By the time a child is 8 years old, their core personality is set for life. Shellon, this "man"...oh gawd...I would cherish the opportunity to work with him. That he answered "nothing" in response to how others could help...I know that place. What is being discussed here that happened in twi is about chronic, relentless, habitual institutionalization of horrendous abuse. Children with missing teeth because they were shot out with a BB gun, fear of owning pets...because whenever you did something wrong you had to watch a parent wring their necks, bruises, broken bones, webbed hands due to multiple dunking in scalding water, and damage to internal tissue due to being viciously and repeatedly raped from as young as 2 years old. These children are now adults. They are not "bad" people in the sense that they don't steal, they don't lie, they don't act up in public, the work hard, they take care of themselves and their families the best they can. But if you could only know what they think inside themselves about themselves. The only thing these children learned from twi was to internalize the problems and accept themselves as irrevocably bad. Folks, the depth of what happened in twi is not about a whack here and there with a wooden spoon. That's an issue brought up with the design to hide what really happened. אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ

Coolwaters, had the child been beaten by the mother, chances are he wouldn't have stolen further, and wouldn't have subsequently bitten off her ear. Aesop was a child abuser too, eh? OM, OM, OM! You can come to the most odd conclusions! That fable clearly and repeatedly states that the mother encouraged and commended the child for stealing. Now if the mother had not encouraged and commended the child but, instead, had taken the child before the teacher (in front of the other students, maybe) to return the book, apoligize AND to make restitution with interest...and the child continued to steal...and the mother continued to not beat the child but find other ways to handle the situation... Then and only then could one consider the idea that not beating the child was the possible root of the problem. Is it really that difficult for you to grasp such simple logic? I don't think so, really. I think you say things you don't even know you're saying...out of rote...out of need to avoid admitting that what happened to you should not have happened...and that you learned nothing but hard-heartedness and cruelty. How you don't see these things is amazing to me...because these things are so very obvious in nearly every post you post. אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ

Good one, OM! You proved that what a child is encouraged to do, he/she will do. A child lives what he/she learns. אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ

WB, I'm not saying that's all there is...I really don't know. I'm saying that it all boils down to the same concept. :)-->

What is religion if not magical thinking? What is magical thinking? Basically it's the idea that if you say something, it may come true. Like if you say, "In the name of jesus christ". To demonize witchcraft is to show magical thinking. How so? If one believes that there is an unseen enemy that must be dealt with...and that there are times when dealing with that unseen enemy requires one to say something like "in the name of jesus christ I cast you out", then that is nothing more and nothing less than magical thinking. TWI did not/does not have a corner on magical thinking. If one holds onto the idea that what one says has power, one is holding onto magical thinking. Call it "witchcraft" or "operating holy spirit" or "calling on the name of jesus", it's all the same thing...no matter what one must tell oneself to feel better, or more "godly", than the next person. ?????????????

IMF, It's wrong...in nearly every religion it's wrong. These are good points to get people looking at the twi doctrines, however. ****************** Wrong...on both counts. ?????????????

Now why would it matter to you? Don't you believe that if I don't believe your way, I'm bad no matter what I believe? ?????????????

OK...great...fine...dandy...your beliefs are yours...mine are mine...but just don't come anywhere near any of my offspring. אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ

I dunno...twi couldn't come close to living up to what is called for in witchcraft. The last verse of the Wiccan Creed: And Do What You Will be the challenge, So be it in love that harms none, For this is the only commandment, By magick of old be it done! ?????????????

Georgio, I usually don't worry about staying on topic. The only time I insert myself about that is when someone is intentionally trying to change the subject in an effort to avoid any discussion that might disagree with their views. I don't think you were doing that...were you? LOL! ;)--> Just teasing ya. Your point is well taken, too. How the world must look to a small fry with a few hundred giants running around with a weapon used especially on him/her. It makes me cry to think about that world. *********** ExC, Two things come to mind when I read that article (which, btw, comes to some of the same conclusions I've come to concerning the biblical viewpoint of "rod"): That twi is described well in this passage: "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." (II Timoty 3:5-7 KJV) And how much I love my bumper sticker that says: "Fundamentalism stops a thinking mind." Gawd. I still have a hard time with the guilt of being the kind of mother twi taught me to be... ?????????????

Oh... Well... You're better than I am... Especially when it comes to knowing what I think... Guess you showed me, huh? --> אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ

אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ

Oh jeeze...blather blather blather about anything and everything but the subject at hand. Can you answer the question? ?????????????

A shepherd's rod is used to measure and count the sheep, beat off wolves and other predators/dangers, guide when herding, etc. Good shepherds know that sheep are too sensitive to be any good if they've been hit...they know that sheep will run away from something that was used to hit them. It is no comfort to them in any way, and it serves to teach them to run away, not obedience. How is it that the rod of a good shepherd became a weapon used to beat the backs of the sheep? It just doesn't make any sense at all...especially when the whole analogy is used to describe Jesus and who he is to his followers. ?????????????

Wow! And I wasn't even trying! :D--> Tee hee. You're pretty wonderful yourself, btw. :)--> אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ

Happy birthday, Happy birthday! Happy happy birthday to you!

But...OM.... How in the he11 did you get the idea that the only abuse in twi was spanking? What I and others have also posted about was sexual abuse...a pedophile ring lead by a branch leader and a couple of twig leaders who used children's fellowship to get kids and teach them blind obedience, silence and fear. Care to talk about that? אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ

Someone pointed out to me that you are probably just egging people on, OM...just playing mind games to get a reaction out of people. I wonder about that...especially since you say things like, "Is it possible to go overboard and spank and beat too hard: YES" I mean, how could anyone seriously say no to that? The very definition of "beat" means you're hitting very hard. Personally, I'm beginning to think you don't give a dam* about any of this discussion...and that what is important to you is to be able to goad people into saying things you can pooh-pooh and use to back them into corners. That said, I stand fully and firmly in my belief that hitting is not acceptable. In the end, so what? Nobody's going to change my mind...I'm not going to change anybody else's mind. What does it matter in the end? The point of this discussion was not to discuss the theological and/or philosophical basis for or against spanking. The point of this thread was to discuss child abuse in twi...and whether or not twi leadership knew and promoted child abuse. I think those questions have been answered quite fully. Whether you believe the answers or not is your choice. Since you don't have any children that suffered because of twi, I wondered why you were even involved in this discussion...which brings me right back to the idea that perhaps you use your wooden spoon to stir the .... pot. אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ

The Runaway Bunny by Margaret Wise Brown. It expresses the depth of a mother's love for her children. I gave a copy to my 26yo daughter this last christmas...she needed to know I wouldn't abandon her. ?????????????

How'd I guess that not only would you slam beggars, but fat people, too...all in one sentence? Sigh. ?????????????

See what I get for not listening to my inner self and putting up one danged post on the board today???? OM, here is something I learned when my daughter was molested by a twi-er: He used the threat of being spanked to get her to not cry out or fight back. When she told the rape crisis counselor this, the counselor gave me a pamphlet to read. In that pamphlet were statistics. Those statistics showed that over 80% of child molesters use the threat of spanking a child to get a child to be quiet and not fight back or cry out. That was in 1984. I certainly hope that in this day and age parents no longer teach blind obedience to whatever adult that happens along with the threat of spanking. Of course, if a child is used to being spanked, that'd be a hard thing to teach him/her.