CoolWaters

Yep...and many of those asswipes are out doing the same thing they were doing when in...maybe in a "kinder, gentler" way, but it's the same thing. Can anybody say "offshoot"? Regardless of twi's current policies, the tree was born of foul seed...and the apples that haven't fallen far from that tree have proven that over and over again. Kill the seed...it's the only way...

There was a time when all I wanted was to hear a few apologies. Now, I would not accept the words. Now, I would want those who did the damage (those in "leadership" positions) to do recompense...and notice I said "do", not "pay". For the marriages that were broken, I would want those who worked the breaking to now be as the husband or wife that was lost. (No, I don't mean to go live with a person as a spouse, but I do mean to do the chores, provide the living...which includes things like medical insurance..., etc.) For the children that were scarred beyond comprehension, I would want those who did the damage to now be the providers of what these now-grown children cannot provide for themselves. For those college educations that were never had, I would want those who condemned and ridiculed until that dream was broken to now pay for the education and provide for the needs of the student until the education is completed. For those careers that were lost, I would want those who demanded that service to twi was the more "godly" choice to now make any provision necessary to aid in the recuperation of that career. I would want none of this done in close enough proximity to the victims to re-damage their lives in any way. I would want all of this for every single victim. Then, and only then, would I consider participating in twi again. But if all of this were done, it wouldn't be twi anymore, would it?

Abigail, This thread topic, your posts...these things remind me of biblical passages... "If you have/have not done it unto the least of these, you have/have not done unto Me." "Don't forget to entertain strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares." Have you seen the movie "Stigmata"? The moral of that story is that Jesus came to tell us that we are all one of another...and that the truth is within.

{{{{{Song}}}}} I am so very sorry that I wrote that post in such a manner that it came across as reproof and as an implication that you were involved with that Alaska stuff. My only intention was to post a memory that your words awakened in my mind. I am very sorry.

These words made me think of something that happened in Alaska with the limb leader G*** Ki**. I was about 5.5 months pregnant. Our family was living in a 12.5 travel trailer in a park alonside Knik Road (a lonely old road going from Wasilla out to the sound)...it was winter...there was nearly 3" of ice on the floor of the trailer. We had gone into Anchorage (a trip of about 60 miles one way) to get some food from the food bank for some believers we knew were in need. None of the believers would open their doors to us. We were "seed" according to the limb leader. So we went to the limb leader's house. He let us in and asked, "What can I do for you?" "We brought this food in for believers who are in need. They won't talk to us, though. We need showers. Especially my wife and daughter." my husband told him. "What made you think anybody needs anything from you?" asked G***. "OK, if you won't take the food, would you let my wife and daughter take a shower?" "I can't do that for you. You're welcome to do a load of laundry or something, but you're not welcome to use my bathroom."

Wow! What a thread! How'd I miss it??? Oh well, I'm here now. We were watching the Discovery History channel the other night. The program was about angels. The program kept mentioning the "Testament of Solomon". Solomon, this program pointed out, was so wise because he knew the code or something about how to command the angels. The program also said that in the Testament of Solomon is all of this wisdom. Anyway, here's what I found online about this. Haven't read it yet...but am going to later on. :D-->

Geeze...it seems like I'm not seeing much these days until after I should have seen things... Anyway, Abigail... :D--> ...this is a great thread!

TYVM, Lindy! :D--> Trefor, yes, we did. That was a direct result of vpw always saying, "Don't take my word for it. Read it for yourself." I learned in therapy that vpw doing that was a psychological trick to make himself seem trustworthy to us...so we would take his word for it... A cult by any other name...

On a particularly revealing leg of my journey out of twi-think a question kept rattling around in my mind..."What if our brains are the greatest gift God gave us?" TWI/vpw taught in piffle that the passage in Hosea about "my people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge" is about people who are destroyed for a lack of biblical knowledge. Really? Hosea doesn't even imply that... Anyway... The result of that teaching was that many people, myself included, stopped plans for college and careers and gave over their lives to twi...to live a life of chosen ignorance...as is the case with many religious people... And the result was, always has been, always will be... Destruction of some form. Because this teaching teaches people to stop thinking for themselves...hopefully to stop thinking at all... Once that happens, people become little more than currency to be used at the whim of those who are thinking for themselves...and usually only of themselves. So I try not to lock into any one particular form of thinking...not to choose or reject choosing... But to think. Does that answer the question at all?

Ask chwester...he's probably enjoying one right about now. -->

waysurvivor, Live and learn, huh? GSers have had many conversations about how to handle abuse issues. Should there be a forum just for abuse conversations? Should it be public or password protected? Should there be separate rules and moderators? Nothing was ever really decided...because things tended to work themselves out. The PTs are great tools for discussing such issues! But every now and again somebody such as yourself comes along and shakes up the status quo. You are seeing how GSC handles that. :)--> We do work it out, imo. Every now and again someone (like me, maybe? tee hee) poses the question about twi being primarily a sex group. Uh oh! Watch out then! But, in all honesty, it's good to push those comfort limits every now and again. How else are we going to learn and grow? And, really, nobody is forced to read anybody else's posts. Warning or no warning, a thread with "Child Abuse" in the title is to be expected to be disturbing at best...immobilizing at worst. So, hang around, speak your mind, consider the rules and the feelings of others, enjoy the company of the rest of us...and give us the chance to enjoy your company. Most of us get through another day with the help of each other. You're probably not much different. :)-->

{{{{{Lindy}}}}} Something my hubs and I use in our marriage is Dr Phil's famous Relationship Question: Do you want to be right or do you want to see this marriage (or whatever relationship) work? I had never thought to apply it to GSC. Good thinking there! :)--> As for none of us being waysurvivor's therapist...right on! I don't think many of us would legitimately qualify to be anybody's therapist...but hey...most of us are pretty darned good support group folks. :)--> Me? I've just walked in waysurvivor's shoes, so to speak, enough to know that, as Mo has explained, the mind treats all memories as "real". Therapy is often just figuring out what each memory represents. For example... And this is probably too much detail for the taste of some... And this is probably triggering for others... But I have thought to share this from the moment I saw waysurivivor's posts... Because it exemplifies so perfectly what waysurvivor is dealing with... So I hope this has been enough of a warning for those who don't want to read details or be triggered to stop reading this post... My husband loves fried eggplant. I remember that while growing up many meals included fried eggplant. I also remember how my mother cooked it...peeling it, soaking it in salt water overnight, flouring it...everything. So I cooked pretty good fried eggplant for my husband whenever he requested it. But from the time I met him (age 18) until I was 30 years old, I couldn't buy eggplant. I couldn't touch eggplant unless it was already peeled and sliced. I refused to eat eggplant. I always told him, "If anything in this world looks and feels like semen, eggplant is it." What??????????? Pretty insane, huh? But when I was 30yo I went to a therapist whose expertise was in cult exiting. (She grew up with Jim Jones and helped in the aftermath of that situation. She was great!!!!!!!) About 4 sessions in, she asked me to participated in group therapy for sexual abuse survivors. I was confused. I had no memories of sexual abuse. At first I refused. What was she trying to do to me, anyway???? I thought her totally incompetent. Then between that session and our next session, this whole eggplant thing came up. This time, however, I had a retching and vomitting reaction, a severe panic attack, and became suicidal. My husband contacted my therapist. She said to bring me to her office immediately. She got me into a group session that started less than 30 minutes later. (I agreed then because she gave me the choice of either that group session or the hospital.) I've always been at home in small groups, so it was somehow calming to just sit there and listen to everybody. Then one woman's story hit too close to home. I freaked out totally. I ran out of the building screaming, "I want my mommy! I want my mommy!" In the middle of the parking lot I curled into a tight little ball, rocked myself, crying/screaming "I want my mommy! I want my mommy!" Memories were flooding my brain. I did not remember most of this. I was told about what I was doing and saying. Later in therapy sessions, I figured out what I was thinking/feeling. Long story short, one of the memories was of being 4yo, on my knees, between my dad's legs, looking up at his scrotum...and thinking to myself, "Why does Daddy have an eggplant between his legs?" See how memories work?

Shaz, Thanks for taking that one on...

Kewl, Jim. (Although I'm scratching my head about the "crossing" me statement....I've been a good girl for a long time...right?) Just so that nobody is confused about where I stand concerning waysurvivor's story... I think she's doing exactly what she says she's doing: working it all out in her head. My original intent in responding about her story was not to validate it or lend a sense of "truth" to it, but to do these things: Point out the things in her story that have already been said...and often documented...by others here at GSC. Reiterate that twi was not and is not just an organization with a few bad apples. Explain a little bit about how traumatic memories often work. Remind folks that knowing somebody or being "in the know" in an organization does not automatically mean that one knows the "whole truth". Offer waysurvivor the opportunity to PT with me. I have no clue as to who waysurvivor is or is not...or if she is or is not taking all of the information available here at GSC and making her own story. What I thought was "true" when I first got involved with trance.net is far different from what I think is "true" now...and I'm very glad for that! I would have never arrived at where I'm at today if I hadn't been challenged in my thinking by you all then and now. It is good that waysurvivor's story is being challenged...for all the reasons you and others have given, for her own well-being, and for keeping us all on our toes about our own journeys.

{{{{{Radar}}}}} Thank you for taking the time to say what you felt in a way that was easy to hear. I'm learning the personality of each poster...and maybe that's helping. ;)-->

I am very sorry, Jim. I had no intention of jumping on you. Even going back and re-reading what I wrote, I don't see what I would think of as "jumping on" you...which only means that I am often an insensitive clod when it comes to perceiving myself. I will remove whatever I've written that is jumping on you...if you will please tell me what it was...so that I won't do it again...and so I will have learned something.

Danny, My next 2 sentences after the ones you have quoted are, "It does lend a sense of scam to your posts. That's not what matters to me, though." What you quoted was a "reason" somebody gave me a long time ago for not believing my story. I was merely trying to explain to waysurvivor one possible reason some folks were reacting to her as if she were lying.

You silly goil! Don't you remember me telling you that somebody told somebody that I know that you wanted to be on the list so that somebody told Roy?

I used to own "Light Through an Eastern Window". I bought it because the college wows were being so secretive about its contents. Bad me. Doing a Yahoo! search turned up some very interesting stuff. This link gives an ISBN for "Orientalisms of the Bible Vol 2". This is the search result entry: "BookFinder.com: Orientalisms of the Bible: Vol. 2 Orientalisms of the Bible: Vol. 2. ISBN: 0-912178-04-3 / 0912178043. Title: Orientalisms of the Bible: Vol. 2. Author: K. C. Pillai. Publisher: Mor-Mac Publishing Company. Edition: Hardcover. Found a mistake in this data? 2004 13th Generation Media". This link is just interesting in relation to twi experience w/K C Pillai info. This link is just another interesting read. This link is the search results of typing "Bishop K C Pillai" (quotes and all) into Yahoo's search window.

Kewl post, lindyhopper.

Agreed! Especially after what he just said on the Open Forum in the 700 club thread. All hail King DMiller!

waysurvivor, This issue is a very hot button with me. I don't know you at all...I see you've been registered since October 10, 2002...and the only posts of yours that I can find are from today on this thread. It does lend a sense of scam to your posts. That's not what matters to me, though. What matters to me is that folks are kept reminded that twi isn't just a group of misguided waybots that have committed sins no worse than adultry. TWI is a group that not only provides sanctuary to convicted child rapists, but also go to great lengths to cover up the rapes and other crimes. Two things I'd like for you to remember about telling your story: 1)Tell the truth, and 2)Don't fight with people about it. Heated discussion is not only acceptable here at GSC, but is to be expected with topics such as this. Name calling and finger pointing just diminish the message. If you need more opportunity to express your anger and grief and shame and fear etc, feel free to PT me.

Jim, It's what you said after you talked about those you personally knew... You know, this statement you made: "That's why your story seems so incredible." If it were acceptable to name names of all the people who knew exactly what was going on in Alaska...because I told them repeatedly and with documentation...and purposefully hid the truth and protected the perpetrators, I'm sure you'd be shocked beyond any other shock you've known....because many of those people are considered by many here to be "upstanding christians and fine, responsible people who would never tolerate such things".

Jim, You registered at GSC on June 17, 2002. You have posted 497 times. This thread was started on February 12, 2004. I'd like to ask you to go back and read this thread from beginning to end. Why? Because I would like to know if, after reading this thread from beginning to end, you'd still force yourself to believe what you just posted.

I must echo Temple Lady here. I must also add information about how young children--and most people in general--"remember" traumatic activities. waysurvivor spoke about "forced into a box and locked in with spiders or threatened with such". She also spoke of "being touched all over and not being able to get away". To my experienced knowledge, I would surmise that being forced into a locked box of spiders is how a 7yo mind made sense of "being touched all over and not being able to get away". waysurvivor also said, "They drugged me when I was there..." She is not the first person here to make such a statement. waysurvivor said, "They tried to intimidate me by pretending that they were going to run me over." Both my husband and I have been stalked by twi leadership...and have received phone calls that threatened death while a black car sat in front of our apartment building. This was done after we had gone to HQ about the pedophilia being practiced on children by a BC who ran a Children's Fellowship so he could get new victims and/or do his thing. (His thing at Children's Fellowship, I have since found out, was to make child porn movies of the children who attended the fellowship.) waysurvivor asked about being "chased by men in black robes as a tool of intimidation". Again, this may not be an actual memory, but the only way a 7yo mind could make sense of what happened. Especially a 7yo who was around men who wore black robes and scared her. It may be that the voices around her reminded her of those men she had seen wearing black robes. waysurvivor asked, "How about dunkings in water?" A forced bath afterwards? A "golden shower"? Again, another way for a 7yo mind to cope. The mind can work with only what it knows and comprehends. The mind is designed to make sense of everything. If it cannot make sense of something because it has no data to build upon, it will use the data it has. A 7yo mind will create men in black robes if that is the data it has that can be associated with the voices/faces/smells of people in a group hurting that 7yo. The mind is also designed to protect itself. If the incoming data is too horrific, the mind will put that data in a less horrific setting. It is far less horrific for a 7yo to think she is locked in a box of spiders than to think that she is being brutally raped by her father's friends while her father watches. The very most important thing waysurvivor said concerning this whole issue is: "There are cult books that list the Way as a cult that practices in wife-swapping and child rape, so if there is anyone out there that simply thinks badly of the Way because of a new branch or something but still thinks they are basically good, think about this story. There is an underlying faction that a lot of people don't see of the Way, but you better bet your children probably do." There are many participants on this board who need to grasp this reality. All this said, it matters not if waysurvivor is a "troll" or some such unwanted participant here. What waysurvivor has said has already been said and documented. Doubt waysurvivor's legitimacy as a poster if you must, but it is a poor statement to doubt her story...because it's no different than the stories told here many, many times by many, many different folks. Myself included.