CoolWaters

The Truth. Has anybody ever played that game Telephone? One person says to the person next to him/her, "I like Abigail!" The next person hears and passes along, "I like a big ale!" The 3rd person hears and passes along, "Looks like a big gale!" And so on.

Oh lawdy Psalmie, yes! The years we spent relying upon commodities...what a trip down Concoction Lane! :) One year in Alaska the gov't was giving out restaurant-sized cans of hamburger. Yes, I said hamburger. Dried ground beef in a can...just add water...or something to make it seem like beef. I made tons of beef and corn chowder with that stuff. Spaghetti, too. Got some of that gov't cheese and made hamburger mac n cheese casserole. Lots and lots of spices, herbs, onions, garlic, bell peppers...whatever was around. It was a strange year...

I've known jal since 1978 (yeah...I know...earlier I said 1977...not a lie...just old timer's). Not closely as in a friendship, but close enough that he made decisions about my life and marriage on more than one occasion...close enough that we have had many telephone, email and chat room conversations...close enough that he invited himself into my home many, many times (NEVER let him in)...close enough. I don't base anything I say/think/feel about jal on what has been posted here. It's personal experience with me. Gotta tell ya... What is seen here is pretty much all there is to jal...imo...from my experiences over the last 28 years with him...

Everywhere you go, everything you say adds up to the SOSDD: "I have nothing to add to the conversation. My only purpose is to cast the shroud of evil over things, derail threads, avoid direct questions, act holier than everybody else, and pontificate on the righteousness of twi." Start your own thread, please OM?

OM, more people than not 'heard' twi espouse an eschewing of the gospels. Can you tell me about Tamar? ************************ Teaching 'the administrations' is confusing at best. How that mentality came across in twi...and came across in the offshoots I've had experience with...was akin to a history teacher saying that because it is now the Bush II administration, the Bush I administration has no bearing on what is happening today. Maybe that's not how it was meant to be, but that's how it was practiced.

Yes, Mark, there it is... That thing you said..."The point of this being that he could not support his theology if the actions and teachings of Jesus, while he was on earth, were listed as being directly applicable to us. Therefore, Jesus' words were not really the standard...only Paul's words. Never mind the fact that the majority of the Gospels (with the exception of Mark's gospel) were written well after Paul wrote his letters to the various particular churches." The cutting off of the vine. And ces/stfi and all the offshoots start from that premise. To me, this is the original fallacy...the thing that started the train on derail from the beginning.

TYVM, WW. I totally get these things...I mean, I was in twi too long...but... That's all so fundamentalist. It doesn't even follow with twi's own teaching about Jesus...that the whole bible is about Him. Ya know? If I can back up a bit from the 'nuts and bolts' narrow focus and look at the big picture, then I can see that Jesus is far more than a person in the bible. He's a symbol. He's universal. He's the goal. Peppered throughout the bible is this image of that which is perfect. Nowhere can one go in the bible without finding this image of righteousness, pastoral ministering, wise counsel and judgment, and all these things typically attributed to Jesus. In the big picture, Jesus is an idea that superimposes itself over all other things. And looking at things from this perspective, then one can turn to a whole lot of examples of how things are done without going to hell in a handbasket and destroying people's lives. For example... This eschewing of the gospels...what a thing to ensure going to hell in a handbasket! Because I had for so long let this mentality work in my personal life, I was amazed at the simple things I had missed! Like Tamar. Has anybody ever read the story of Tamar? Wow! What a story! And so very apropos to today's world! If I had ever read the story of Tamar in twi, I would have done many, many things differently. In Tamar's story is part of Jesus' story. The imagery, the symbolism, the 'moral of the story'...these things are this idea of Jesus superimposing itself in the big picture. But by looking only at the 1st century church, we cut out all the wisdom, all the history, all the years of walking with God that went before the 1st century church...and even before the physical reality of Jesus came to being. And we cut off the fruit of the spirit at the knees... IMO.

It's been driving me nuts of late...and particularly since this whole ces/stfi discussion... Why do all discussions of what works/doesn't work biblically in this day and age start off with something like, "well in the 1st century church," or, "I do/do not see where Paul did/did not do somethingorother," or other such sentiments? Why is the standard not Jesus? This seems such an obvious problem to me.

GSC, to the best of the abilities of the moderators, allows people to have their privacy. If someone does not have specific permission and one posts private conversations, information, etc. at the cafe, well, SMACK! Not only by moderators, but nearly everybody who notices. The threat of, "You really don't want such-and-such to get out into the open" played a huge part in people falling in line in twi. Not having that to contend with...that's a big difference between healthy and unhealthy group participation.

********************************* Oh boy am I learning about this stuff right now! First and foremost, in any group of people who come together more than once for any reason, personal boundaries need to be clearly defined and highly respected. The first personal boundary to disappear in a group setting is self value. Little hints show up indicating this decaying boundary... You worry that your attire isn't quite up to snuff... You worry that your personal situations are less than others... You laugh at 'jokes' you find distasteful... You agree to participate in things you don't enjoy because 'everybody enjoys it!'... You begin asking others in the group for 'advice' because you feel they have a better handle on life... And so many more little signs that self value is eroding. But by the time these little signs add up in one's mind, there's a crisis. So, imo, the very very very first thing a group must have is respect of the individual. Now if a group is coming together for the discussion of doctrines, beliefs, etc., like in a fellowship, IF that group begins with clearly established doctrines, beliefs, etc., then that group automatically does not respect the individual. Which is why all roads tend to lead to Mecca, so to speak, in this instance.

Jim, TYVM for your input. Experience is a good adviser. There's just no way I'd be interested in making a business of my own with this idea. It's just an idea that blends a whole bunch of other things into one thing. I'm not reinventing the wheel...just looking at different ways to use it with other things like the blender. :) Any suggestions now? LOL *********************************** The Dew Drop Inn is just down the street from me...maybe this weekend I'll drop in...hehehehe.... *********************************** polarbear and waysider, thanks! Great info! Will be going to those sites pretty quick!

This is a most interesting thread! Several times while still in twi, and a few times when in an offshoot, either my husband or I were told that if we left 'the protection of the household' we'd die. In each case, our 'protection' was found in the particular twig/fellowship we were attending at the time. IOW, if we fellowshipped with anybody else (even other twigs) or anywhere else, we'd die. A few years ago the thought hit me that this kind of mentality was akin to the mentality of covens during witch hunts. So I went down to my local alchemy shoppe and asked the proprietor (who was head of a coven), "Why would my circle (means the same thing as 'twig' or 'fellowship') threaten death to us if we left?" He cited the obvious about persecution. Then he also said that in magick, it is very important that participants in a circle/coven be loyal to the head so that the magick will be powerful. He said that magick depends on the energy flow of the body and mind, and then when a circle/coven is formed, it is a given that each individual will contribute his/her mind/body energy flow ONLY to that group. But he added that such a circle/coven is dangerous because seeking such power will lead only to witch wars and dark practices and will, eventually, lead to insanity. Well! It's been very, very difficult for me to participate in 'fellowships' so closely knit that outsiders are looked at as morons or aliens or something. Yes, all of us yearn for that special group we can belong to and fit in so well that we need nothing much else for social interaction and friendship fulfillment. But mix that with a belief system and a hierarchy, that's no longer just a group of friends. Ya know?

LOL...dooj said his package in a ball glass...ROFLMAOPIMP...hehehe... Snort Sorry Carry on

OK...so I get an 'I told you so' out of this mess... So? I wasn't the only one who told people about ces/stfi...wasn't there a whole message board dealing with the problems...? But this is not a gleeful, end zone dance type of 'I told you so'. It's an 'I wish I knew the words to say to have had your ear years ago before you got hurt' type of 'I told you so'. Like when a child burns his/her hand on a hot stove after being told and shown many, many times not to touch the stove... "Oh honey! Come here and let Mommy fix your owie! I'm sorry this happened to you, but Mommy tried to teach you not to touch that stove. Let's talk about how I can help you remember not to touch that stove again, OK?"

Yeah...patent...I think that's the first step...patent the idea. I don't want to do anything with the idea myself...couldn't possibly do it myself...but want to sell the idea to a particular company. Thanks! OH...that was FUNNY...ask jal...hehehehehe...maybe I should wait for a dream first...?

I just remembered something from long ago... 1977, NY State, Easter weekend (I know...that's not what it was called in twi...but I forget what it was called...something like Resurrection Sunday...?), NY limb meeting...JAL...teaching "If you don't fold, you can't lose"...twi magazine...that teaching on the cover...right? Just made me wonder if he's gonna fold or not...

How does one go about selling one's ideas?

This is SOSDD JAL blathering. It's the same stuff he said often enough on the odd list...with the same excuse for not interacting after he pronounced his 'discernment': he doesn't like to deal with the anonymous... Makes me wonder if he's scared of ghosts or if he's compiling some sort of list...

Nobody is ever a leader without followers. As has been pointed out, what is happening with ces/stfi, what happened with twi, what happens with jw, what goes on in many churches, what goes on in corporate america...all of these organizations have the same basic problems and could all fall within the definition of 'cult'. But it takes a cooperative group of people to make the group into a cult.

This post bears not only repeating, but understanding. Because this is how twi got over, is how ces/stfi is going to get over, and is how many extwi folks still think and act. So it's no surprise the error of twi lives on...now in multiple organizations/churches and in many, many more lives than if twi had not splintered out...

Oh chit! LOL Good one. You got me. LOL No, I wasn't directing anything at Bow. I did what I could think of doing to say so. I thought I did a good job explaining where my post was coming from. There's a place in this thread where I say something about a wizard blowing fairy smoke out of his/her whatever. Know where that came from? My head. When I think of taking classes offered by twi offshoots, I get this mental image of the Cheshire Cat, Alice, the Queen of Hearts, the Mad Hatter and the Wizard of Oz sitting around a hookah. To me that's funny, funny, funny. Well, it wasn't so funny to somebody else. ::shrug:: What can a person do?

OK, I never said that anybody was unintelligent, screwed up or that wanting to take a class was horrible. I asked some questions... Questions that I said were coming from the current discussions concerning CES... And later on stated that I was also responding to things that were written in another thread... And made sure that it was known that I was not finger-pointing and made sure it was known that I don't have a clue as to much concerning these things in my own life... Then I stated my opinionated responses to those questions. Oh yeah... I also stated that the questions were questions I have learned to ask myself. Now if anyone is 'getting something' more than I have written (maybe a personal prophecy or a dream...?...OK...that was bad...but my sick sense of humor thinks it's funny), then get it if you must. I didn't write it with ulterior motives or laced with some sort of secret meanings. Something I have learned in life is that a thief thinks everybody is stealing from them, a liar thinks everybody is lying to them, an abuser thinks everybody is abusing them... So if anybody thinks I've got ulterior motives or am lacing what I write with some sort of secret meanings...well... It wouldn't be the first time, won't be the last time, and doesn't really matter in the scheme of things. Ooops... I said 'scheme'... Quick, somebody! Figure out what I really meant! Then quickly tell me so that I'll larn to talk more better...

Yo, sga, wow. I just finished reading Siddhartha and Demian a few days ago. I'd read them once upon a time before I grew up, but I had forgotten all that. What struck me this time through was, "Oh yeah...I've been down these rabbit holes." Also, I kept wondering if Hesse had access to a good therapist. Religion, spirituality, esoteric planes, all that...well, imo, for me at this point in my life, these things are simply coping tools. Now dream a dream of flying, wake up to a dragonfly staring you in the eyes, then draw up plans for a helicopter...that's a dream to dream for 'the world'. Maybe...because once the flying machines came along, the wars and the environmental damages snuck in with nightmares. The prophets/seers of old were local...just like the gods/goddesses/whatever. Even the god of the bible started out being a local god. The words and actions of these prophets/seers/gods/goddesses/whatever were specific to a locality or a clan or a tribe. When a prophet/seer/god/goddess/whatever dreamed dreams and spoke words and gave instructions that reached beyond their locality, clan or tribe, it was war. Which is exactly what happens today. You and I can connect with each other concerning our dreams, visions, prophecies, etc. and discuss what we have seen and heard and learned. But if you or I expect one another to adopt each other's experiences as guides down our own paths...well...then we're messing around with stuff we cannot fathom. You and I don't know each other on a day-to-day basis, so we don't know how one another's lives are truly panning out in reality. We don't live in the same community, so we don't face the same community issues. We don't have family in common, so we have no history of one another. If you or I were to get together and join our understandings and form a group and invite in others we are loosely associated with to participate in this group... And this group takes on a life of its own and the dreams you and I dream become the standard operational procedures for this group... Well, all the dreams we dream automatically become nightmares. Because we have imposed ourselves upon others. Even if we did it out of sheer joyous desire to dream dreams together, the imposition of our dreams becoming the standard by which all other dreams are measured becomes the nightmare of all things ugly and fearful and desperate and shaming and all that. IMO :)

OK, I'm lost. My only point in responding to an example YOU brought up was to show that just because something good happened in a nightmare doesn't preclude the whole thing from being a nightmare. Using the example YOU used. Need I say it again? YOU brought up a situation to exemplify YOUR point. All I did was remind you of where that example ended up. Which is my point about this whole taking classes thing in the first place: just because a wizard or two blows fairy smoke out his/her whatever doesn't mean that he/she's magical, more knowledgeable, smarter or even on target with his/her babbling and bag of tricks. Now whatever else you're running on about... Paranoia will destroy ya. I'm not your enemy...and even if I were, I'm a pitiful enemy to engage...'cause wtf can I really do to you? Say things you don't like? If that's a deadly felony in process, call the gestapo. ************************************** OK, Dove, we've reached that point where we disagree.

Lovey Dovey, After a certain age, almost everything one does in life is a trigger response. Some people call it being set in one's ways. Other people call it personal style. Still others call it reliable. Even others call it leopards not changing their spots. (Edited right here! OMG! I originally said stripes!!!! I'm so dingy sometimes! LOL) Triggers are neither good nor bad in and of themselves...they are simply shortcut responses to familiar territory. The problems usually lie in what particular shortcut one chooses. For example, a person who has money troubles and steals to solve those troubles is choosing one sort of shortcut response. Another person, however, who has money troubles and chooses to work an extra job to solve those troubles is choosing a different shortcut response. The trigger is the same: money troubles. The shortcut response is what is different. See? As I said, in light of the whole CES/STFI mess, these questions came to my mind when I saw that a person who hasn't been out of twi for very long has questions about an offshoot class. Had this person not been involved in twi and down the path of classes and such, the questions would be...odd. Anyway, anybody who had been involved in twi for more than 5 mins or so after taking piffle is totally overloaded with 'biblical knowledge', imo. Taking more classes when the basics are not mastered is like eating when not hungry imo. Why do it? (If I had the answer, btw, I wouldn't asking the question...or still be fat. :) ) Your responses are great responses...for those who were not deeply involved in a cult. But... ********************** Bow, Looking back on that particular week through the eyes of a professional, highly skilled therapist, I have come to understand why that week happened in my life at all... And it wasn't all so much fun for me in the end...which reinforces my questions...imo. Also, I had read your other post about offshoots and classes and stuff, so I was kinda cheating here in this thread...trying to answer both posts without answering in both threads. Maybe I should have said that.