CoolWaters

A friend of mine is related to him and would like to reconnect with him. Thank you.

Speaking of Karl's book... An AOS excerpt.

Sigh. Can't a girl have any fun? ;)-->

Thanks, Garth! Sigh. I figured that's what I'd end up having to do. And, really now Garth, did you think I'd just embed a repeating loop? ;)-->

You know those siggy thingies at the bottom of my posts? I want to add sound to them. How?

Hello Mudda, Hello Fadda, Here I am, On your Granada (OK...it rhymes...) We were playin' With your minds... So you oughta Think more bettah Of your dadda. ;)--> :D-->

-->

White Dove, There's more to either of us than meets the eye on theses boards...huh?

White Dove, Evidently we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. I, personally, have ceased in any effort I ever made to see veep's words without also looking at his actions.

I wanna play, too! There's soooooooooooo much me and a martian can do here in KC...! I know exactly the first place we're gonna go, too... Hehehehehehehe.

I whole-heartedly agree!

White Dove, First, I was not trying to discredit you by saying you are a veep apologist. I was merely placing you in a category that I saw fit...and then tried to explain why I placed you in that category. The only importance to me over this point was stupid. It's not worth anything at all to me enough to argue you over it with you. OK? Second, I never said veep taught trinity in twi. Third, I'm not denying or in any way, shape or form saying that veep did not write that letter or that he was being dishonest when he wrote it. I am saying, however, that there was dishonesty in the fact that he didn't stop his underlings from making life a living hell...on this point and many others. And I am saying that how he lived his life bespoke the lie of his words. Fourth, saying that you presented evidence that makes what I posted about my eye-witness account(s) (as well as those of others) 'not true' is arguing in defence of a cause...which, in this case, is, by your own words, presenting your version of the 'truth' about veep. Fifth, I wasn't questioning the validity of the letter...I was simply stating what veep apologists have answered to me concerning letters they didn't agree with. It was an aside sort of thing. Sixth, I again say that what veep may have written or allowed to make it to tapes is not the total reality of who VPW was and what VPW did. When was the last time you read Titus 1? It's a good start to get a biblical look at a man like VPW. Verse 15 says, "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (I looked up 'works'...and it is basically what a person does in his/her daily life to earn a living.) There are many, many testimonials in many places on the 'net of victims of veep's rape coach. If that isn't enough to convince someone that they'd best reconsider veep's 'truth', then they don't want THE truth. The scriptures are very clear about such things...over and over and over again...especially where it concerns those entrusted to oversee the body. Seventh, UNCLE!!!! You want to play semantics with this subject (talking v praying), feel free. I'm quitting, though...it's circular argument at best... ************** Now, White Dove, after all that's been said and done, what have you 'proven'?

OK, White Dove, I'm having a difficult time sifting through your post and coming out with what you're saying about the subject at hand and what you're questioning about me as a person...but I'll try. ;)--> Since it is my first reaction to your post, I'll first address what you question about me as a person... I never lived in the house on Western. I was there a whole lot, yes. I was there for branch meetings. I was there for special guest speakers like R**s T***y. I was there to hang out with folks like B*** Y***. I was never allowed to attend twig there, though. Once BG found out what B and T B were doing to me, I was 'blackballed', to use your term, to the point that BB bore false witness against me to the DA of Shawnee County...to the end result that a rapist was released from county jail and within the hour after his release he raped a 12yo little girl. But he was a 'babe', doncha know, and it was BG's decision that a 'babe' was to be afforded 'grace' at all costs. I am angry. I am angry that what I was shown in twi to be 'truth' was a twisted version...and that, because it was so very twisted, situations like I just described marked my every experience with twi. So why'd I stay around? Because I thought I had been taught the "word of God like it had never been revealed since the First Century". What was my little peon mind against such a thing??????? I did, btw, "speak up for what {I} believed to be true"...as you put my supposed 'failure'. The very first result of my doing that was BB's false witness against me. The very last result of my doing that was a branch leader, a twig leader and a 'babe' ending up in prison for sexual and physical attacks against little children. There's so much more in between that I leave out in respect of people's lives. So please don't ever again toss up to my face any time that I ever "failed to speak up for what {I} believed to be true". That just didn't happen...and not only I, but my children and others paid a terrible price for others not speaking up...or speaking lies and partial truths to 'protect the household'. And you know firsthand that I did indeed speak up...and some of what happened as a result. Just don't go there to prove a point anymore, please. Thank you very much. ********************* Now about this whole 'truth' thing... First and foremost, 'truth' when it comes to twi is often presented exactly with way brain: not telling everything one knows (it was often said to me in twi, "telling the truth doesn't mean telling everything you know...it just means being truthful with what you do tell") ignoring evidence of eye-witnesses...one's own, most often belittling and badgering those who present different 'evidence', and if all else fails, reject a person's ability to think, reason and run their own lives. Yes, veep wrote a letter. Yes, you posted that letter as evidence (I gotta tell ya, though, I have a letter, too, with what appears to be an identical signature...and that's been pooh-poohed away by other veep apologists as "just a peon responding to letters Dr. didn't have time to bother with himself"). The very fact that veep did not stop his underlings from demanding twits believe exactly the opposite of what he put forth in your 'evidence' is 'proof' he really didn't quite believe his own words. What Belle said is a perfect example: veep was also once a trinitarian and 'taught' from that point of view. The man constantly changed his mind. If nothing else...but there was much else...as provided by the testimony of eye-witnesses. Veep was obviously very careful not to put too much 'evidence' into writing. Just because you have something written to 'prove' anything at all about the man does not mean you have honest evidence of what the man was really like...and what he was really 'expounding'. As for you being an apologist...well, White Dove, what you are doing is taking your experience of 'truth' and telling me that what I know isn't 'true'. There's an argument in there somewhere...and you're certainly taking sides. How in the world can anyone even consider an unrepentant rapist, adulterer, pimp, philanderer...whatever words can be used here...how can anybody at all consider anything such a man ever said as truth? Until one stops using twi brain as one's 'center reference for truth', one cannot receive any other truth. ********************* Now for the difference between praying and talking... Looking into Strong's, prayer in the Gospels and the Pauline Espistles amounts to some simple things: a wishing for, an entreaty, a begging for, a call to one's side, a form of worship. When one spends time with Jesus, one does these things...and more. Trying to explain the difference between talking to Jesus or praying to Jesus by using human relationships is fouled in premise...it's apples and oranges. Maybe the real question here might be... "Does one pray to Jesus or through Jesus?" In reality, it pans out to be semantics, though. We have no access to the Father but by Jesus. There's quite a bit of difference between that last statement and the "direct connection" taught to me in twi.

OK, White Dove, I getcha now! Thanks! People do get paid lots of money just for thinking...but that's not what you're talking about, is it? ;)--> As you present things, no, believing is not works. But how you present it above is not how it was presented in twi, is it? ;)--> It was absolutely taught in piffle that one could go throughout the bible finding all of the promises of God, name them and then claim them if their 'believing' was there. It was absolutely taught in piffle that since it was said in 'the word' then it was 'available' and, therefore, God didn't need to actually tell anybody a second time...if one's believing was there. Just because something is written in the bible does not mean it is equal to being activated in our lives. Piffle taught Believing=Receieving...and, conversely, twi went on to say that if one is not receiving, oh, let's say healing, for example, then one is not believing enough. This is where it became works...that little word 'enough'. Or to put it another way twi said things...believing is an action word, so what are you doing to bring it to pass? Or, another twi way of putting things...God said, I believe it, that settles it. Always, always, always there was something more one had to do if one was not receiving 'the promises of God'. It was never OK to say with people like Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, "If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up." It was never OK to trust that regardless of one's 'receiving', one was still in the 'will of God'...because twi always equated the 'will of God' to the grace of God. Do you see?

Almost exactly my second reaction (after the feeling like a fool), Mo. All I can say is to look at the scriptures again...and see what you may see.

Thank you, mstar, for answering me. It's a dark place in my head...I don't talk about it very often at all...and I certainly don't talk about it for curiousity's sake...but if you're trying to be a friend to a 'cutter', then I'll talk about it. Belle provided some good info. On the first link I went to the "Why" page ( http://www.palace.net/~llama/psych/why.html ) and read it over. Pretty good stuff. Cutting, mutilation, etc....these things are not the only types of self-injury...they just seem more horrifying. Eating disorders, smoking, drug/alcohol addictions, gambling habits, etc....these seemingly 'normal' things are all a part of the self-injury mindset. Although it can lead to suicide attempts, cutting is not usually a suicide attempt. Quite the contrary, in fact...it's often the only 'safe' way one sees of relieving the incredible internal pressure. It's addictive, too. Not really a 'high' to it...but an extreme release of extreme pressure that may feel like a 'high'. It's kind of like opening a shaken soda...or a pressure cooker. But until the pain itself is dealt with, the pressure will always build up again...then the release will always be needed again. Medication works only insofar as it dulls the reaction to the build-up of the pressure...but unless one is medicated beyond ability to feel at all, one will always need the release. The only real help at all is getting to the pain and healing the pain. Much as most of this society hates to think this, I have found that Jesus is the only one who can touch that deeply.

Yes...why?

Hammer Man! My husband and I are very thankful our surgeons didn't decide to become preachers and 'heal'that way...ya know? And seriously... Drs and nurses and EMTs, etc., 'raise the dead' every day in hospitals and on highways and in hospices, etc. across the world...just because they do it with an education behind them doesn't mean they do anything less miraculous than Jesus did...ya know? ***************** Galen, This whole thing about crowns and rewards on the 'other side'... I looked like the total fool I was when, in a study group at church, I asked, "What is this about having crowns and rewards in heaven? If God doesn't respect persons here on earth...and it's by grace and not works...why would He hand out what amounts to payment?" They all just looked at me in shock. Finally one of them said, "Those crowns and rewards or so you'll have gifts to give to the King. They're not for some sort of account you're piling up for your use in some sort of eternal banking system." Boy did I ever feel like a fool...

Dan... Your first post up there... Dude! Now there's a lesson in effective writing. LOL! "If a deity who doesn't think physically challenged handicapped folk are worthy or sacred enough of being in his presence,- time to take another trip to the God-Store, and shop around a little bit." Oh yeah! I love the God-Store! :D--> ;)--> --> -->

Hey there Ms Thelma Belle, I wanted to go into this very subject on the thread, too, but wasn't getting questions answered that were already asked...and since I had already started two threads back-to-back, I thought I'd better 'back down' a little. LOL ;)--> Anyway... Talking, praying, worship... Dividing these things up into pieces...well, it's like dividing up the Godhead, imo: the result is confusion and leads only to strife. Oh...I must say this... It was made perfectly clear to me that Jesus could be a devil spirit, that praying to Him could lead to possession, and that anybody who actually saw Jesus was probably of the 'seed boy' ilk. With all due respect to White Dove, he enjoyed a 'kinder, gentler' experience in twi during our twi years together... So, my point is that yes, he probably did have more latitude to think for himself...he certainly had more access to 'inner sanctum' information... So, again with all due respect to White Dove, he was free to stick only to veep's 'intended' meanings...and slough off maniacal twig leader and corpse rantings. (I'm really not picking on you, White Dove...you just happened to be handy...and, of the veep apologists here, you're the easiest to go back-and-forth with.) Yet, all that said, if veep 'intended' for things to mean something totally different than what his underlings were shoving down people's throats, I still don't understand how that lets veep off the hook for not stopping the lies...ya know? OK... Now back to our regularly scheduled program... The bible is perfectly clear that no man comes to the Father but by Jesus.... And that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word... Which I have finally learned is NOT the written word, but the spoken, revealed word...i.e., Jesus. Nit-picking over Jesus being present or absent based upon whether or not he's wearing flesh...well...that's another topic... But my point is that Jesus is the first and only step. Jesus is the mediator between us and God. No matter what words we use to describe a relationship with Jesus, it's just that: a relationship. How we relate to Him is quite simple: we talk with Him; we walk with Him; we enjoy His presence; we sing to and with Him; we treat Him as if He is our best friend and our dear lover (not sex partner...pull yer minds outta yer pants for a few, OK? ;)--> yes, part of being a lover is physical intimacy...and Jesus needs to be physically intimate with us to heal us...remember that the relationship with Jesus is likened to the marital relationship). In short, we act as if He's right here in the room with us... Because He is! I'm learning to stop nit-picking semantics and start enjoying the relationship. I mean, seriously, what kind of human-to-human relationships would we have if we nit-picked them apart like we do a relationship with Jesus? Does this make sense to you?

Did I follow you right, Galen? The original field was to be down closer to the house...but then, after the snow, the guy said to move it up by the road? And that's 10' above the house? Hmmmmm... Then add a lift pump thingy to that? I dunno... Sounds ill-advised to me. But what do I know? I've participated in only a dozen building projects...and only one of those was an apartment complex... ;)-->

Found A Peanut (As I remember it and have sung it lo these many years to any child who will listen!) Found a peanut, Found a peanut, Found a peanut Just now. Just now I found a peanut, Found a peanut just now. Cracked it open, Cracked it open, Cracked it open Just now. Just now I cracked it open, Cracked it open just now. Had a worm (etc) Ate it anyway (etc) Got sick (etc) Called the Dr. (etc) Died anyway (etc) Went to Heaven (etc) Kicked an angel (etc) They kicked me out (etc) Went the other way (etc) Kicked a devil (etc) They kicked me out (etc) Found a peanut... OH NO!!!!!

White Dove, I must be extremely dense today because I'm not seeing a point to what you are saying. Explain, please?

White Dove... You teasin' me?????!!!!!????? You'd better be!!!! --> Just in case you're serious... What part of "It is based upon God doing what I cannot do" don't you understand?

Oh gawd! He really meant it when he said in piffle, "If a man wants to go to hell, let him go to hell!" He just wasn't telling us that he'd be leading us all down that path.