CoolWaters

bowtwi, thank you.

I feel sort of responsible for ck posting this thread. One evening in chat ck stated that he was going visit hq and do an sns. I asked him why and he said he was going with his dad and simply wanted the experience. I 'heard' that he was going more for the perspective...sort of like going back to see if what he saw then is what he still sees or if he could see through his dad's eyes. I encouraged him to post his experience. He said he would but would do his best to be impartial, trying not to prejudice anyone's opinion one way or the other. Maybe I'm too stoopid for my shirt (you know...like in the song 'too sexy'...but just too stoopid lol), but I took ck at face value. I have a 19yo son and I know that most of the time he doesn't really know what he thinks about something...which makes him seem like he's always waffling if not an out-and-out liar or crazy person. He's still trying to figure out what part of his thinking is what we taught him to think and what part is what he actually thinks. And he hasn't got a whole lot of life experience to guide him in this process. So I get ck coming across as confused at best, phony and 'trolling' at worst. I also get what I was like when I first confronted my twi brain on extwi message boards. So much of what I thought and did, I didn't know I was thinking and doing until somebody pointed it out to me in a way that I could understand. Anyway... CK, I wasn't setting you up or anything...I really thought that people would be interested in what you experienced...and how you interpret what you experienced. Everybody else... If I'm being too stoopid, my bad and I'm sorry.

I've always wondered if twi was a different experience at different levels of the 'way tree', but never thought to just ask the question. So here's the poll that I hope will ask the question and satisfy my curiosity. As you know, polls are anonymous, so nobody has to identify themselves or their experiences. As you also know, the options are limited (I call 20 options 'limited'????), so if you feel I've left off your choice, please do tell. And if you wanna tell what you chose and why, I'm all ears. :D Thanks!

Ron...what/who are you quoting? I don't know what I think until I know more...but it's worth looking at, imo. Thanks!

Belle! I was just going to post a link to the site in your thread about how a church should act! LOL I have church-hopped quite a bit in the last several years, but I always keep coming back to the UMC. I was baptized in the UMC a few years ago...which is amazing because I had NEVER BEFORE felt the urge to be baptized, but after several years of working with them in our community, and after a couple of years of learning the ins and outs of the UMC, and after watching preachers come and go while the congregation stayed the course, I was impressed and decided that if ever there was a time and a place to be baptized, that was it. Listening to some of the sermons/sharings on the site was so refreshing! And so NOT twi...OR same old same old religiousity. And the way these folks serve one another and the community! They're just a small handful of people but they do so much! Anyway, if you were here I'd grab ya up and haul ya in with me! LOL

Hmmm, chef! I wonder what's up? It's working just fine for me. The url is www.kcrevolution.org. Thanks for trying! :)

I love how the United Methodists operate!!!! Another big difference between the UMC and twi is the UMC's slogan: Open Hearts, Open Minds, Open Doors. The UMC means it! Oh! Another difference between the UMC and twi is the UMC shows 'the love of God'...and doesn't just give it lip service on the behind of leadershi+ like in twi. Outside of Catholic Charities/Catholic Social Services, the UMC does more for the communities in which their churches are located than twi has ever done for anybody. Can you tell I love the UMC? :D

Nevermind...thought better of leaving my rant up here.

A couple of weeks ago we started going to a new church. We did this after listening to several audio sermons/sharings. We were wowed! Anyway, I'm not trying to convert/convince anybody about anything spiritual/religious. I'm kinda bragging, kinda plugging their homepage, blogs, audio and video collection and stuff...because I think that it's worth sharing with those who are interested. Those who aren't interested...well...too bad! LOL Just kidding. Y'all don't have to look/read this post. Tee hee. Click the banner up there and it will take you to their homepage.

It would have to be the one, the only, the Divine Miss M! (large animation...will take a couple of minutes to load) There could be nobody else at all for me!

Redemption Song Words by Bob Marley Old pirates yes they rob I Sold I to the merchant ships Minutes after they took I from the Bottom less pit But my hand was made strong By the hand of the almighty We forward in this generation triumphantly All I ever had is songs of freedom Won't you help to sing these songs of freedom Cause all I ever had redemption songs, redemption songs Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery None but ourselves can free our minds Have no fear for atomic energy Cause none of them can stop the time How long shall they kill our prophets While we stand aside and look Some say it's just a part of it We've got to fulfill the book Won't you help to sing, these songs of freedom Cause all I ever had, redemption songs, redemption songs, redemption songs Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery None but ourselves can free our minds Have no fear for atomic energy Cause none of them can stop the time How long shall they kill our prophets While we stand aside and look Yes some say it's just part of it We've got to fulfill the book Won't you help to sing, these songs of freedom Cause all I ever had, redemption songs All I ever had, redemption songs These songs of freedom, songs of freedom

To me it feels like the author spent more time coloring his/her point than trying to express him/herself. As if this were done for a class final or something...the mechanics of the thing being more important than the message of the thing. It's disjointed and forced...making it unreal to me. Kinda like going to a $150 per plate fundraiser in the 'fight against poverty and hunger'. Just isn't quite congruous.

Very interesting topic. Been dealing with the issue of closure in my personal life...whether or not just 'moving on' because 'that's in the past' is healthy... In therapy I was taught to take an issue (at that particular time the issue was childhood sexual abuse) and make it very small in my mind's eye. So small, in fact, that I could place it in a miniature bottle, put the cap on it, and put it on the shelf where it could do me no more harm. That worked for several years. Until the shelf became so full that bottles were falling off and all the stuff in them was spilling out and messing up my mind anyway. Stuffing it all into a small bottle and shelving it is not dealing with it once and for all. It's really just making things worse because you never know when it's all going to spill out...and, too often, it's a small leak that becomes a slow but deadly poison that taints everything we think, say and do. Something I learned when studying the shaman's path was to learn the lesson of every situation. Stand in the middle of the maelstrom, let it swirl around me while I stand still...slow it all down and look at the individual pieces of the whole...feel the feelings...but stand still and not get sucked into the vortex...then let each piece dissolve into nothingness...soon all of the pieces are gone and there is no more storm...and will be no more storm because the lessons have been learned for that situation. That's what goes on here, imo. We are able to stand in the middle of all the issues and pick them out one at a time, figure out all the feelings and mechanics of what happened, and then let them dissolve, 'die' if you will, of our own volition. That's closure. IMO. That's an absolute requirement of successfully 'moving on'.

Dot...yeah...and I fell for such crap hook, line and sinker...just trained to let people meddle...'cause it was the wOrD doncha know...and oh how I've paid. Sigh. rascal, you hit the nail right on the head of what I was talking about in the first part of my post: cheaters who think they need to be 'understood' and want us to sympathize. Sheesh! And you've also expressed far better than I could have exactly what is wrong with it all. This is a spin-off of Dot's thread, anyway...so let it 'bleed' over all you want, honey. {{{{{rascal}}}}}

{{{{{rascal}}}}} Girlfriend you need to get the "Best of Janis Joplin" CD and rock out! Janis knows how to make the pain scream! Especially her rendition of "Piece of My Heart" (wish I knew how to do that linky stuff they all do in the nostalgia thread...if you haven't heard this song it's quite nice for such feelings as you've expressed here): Piece Of My Heart Oh, come on, come on, come on, come on! Didn’t I make you feel like you were the only man —yeah! Didn’t I give you nearly everything that a woman possibly can ? Honey, you know I did! And each time I tell myself that I, well I think I’ve had enough, But I’m gonna show you, baby, that a woman can be tough. I want you to come on, come on, come on, come on and take it, Take it! Take another little piece of my heart now, baby! Oh, oh, break it! Break another little bit of my heart now, darling, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, oh, have a! Have another little piece of my heart now, baby, You know you got it if it makes you feel good, Oh, yes indeed. You’re out on the streets looking good, And baby deep down in your heart I guess you know that it ain’t right, Never, never, never, never, never, never hear me when I cry at night, Babe, I cry all the time! And each time I tell myself that I, well I can’t stand the pain, But when you hold me in your arms, I’ll sing it once again. I’ll say come on, come on, come on, come on and take it! Take it! Take another little piece of my heart now, baby. Oh, oh, break it! Break another little bit of my heart now, darling, yeah, Oh, oh, have a! Have another little piece of my heart now, baby, You know you got it, child, if it makes you feel good. I need you to come on, come on, come on, come on and take it, Take it! Take another little piece of my heart now, baby! oh, oh, break it! Break another little bit of my heart, now darling, yeah, c’mon now. oh, oh, have a Have another little piece of my heart now, baby. You know you got it —whoahhhhh!! Take it! Take it! Take another little piece of my heart now, baby, Oh, oh, break it! Break another little bit of my heart, now darling, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Oh, oh, have a Have another little piece of my heart now, baby, hey, You know you got it, child, if it makes you feel good. Lots of very thoughtful and insightful stuff here on this thread. Who were you Dawn Redwood????? (Yes...I'm probably a bit slow on the get-go. So sue me. LOL) Bramble...yep...twi...learned it there and brought it with 'em. Too often you can take the boy/girl out of twi, but you can't take twi out of the boy/girl. Sigh. Shell...well...no...I wasn't talking about in-laws, but buttinsky in-laws are a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Outlaws, on the other hand, well, they're easy to deal with...they mess with ya, cap 'em in the a$$. :D

Oh...and just in case anybody thinks I'm talking about them... If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it. I'm only talking about folks I know personally in 3D.

Dot's thread about cheating has had me thinking about how cheating (and other crap) even gets into a marriage/relationship. We've all seen the movie, read the book, or heard about The Scarlet Letter. In that setting we, the audience, are led to sympathize with the cheaters. Why? Seriously, if people were to be so tortured and brutalized for such things would the divorce rate in America be better than 50%? What gives anybody the right to fiddle in a marriage/relationship? Oh...yeah...I forgot about those who don't tell their possible playmates that they are married. But so what? Hopping into the sack before you know enough about the person to figure out they're probably married is kinda stupid. IMO. And what about those folks who think they have a right to 'counsel' people concerning their marriages/relationships? I know of at least 5 relationships that each were started and stopped because of nosey know-it-alls. What really gets my dander up is women who have come from...or are still in...abusive relationships and who go around 'saving' all their 'sisters'. These women get on the phone and, via the magic of 3-way calling, get a group of 5 or 6 women all calling one woman to 'save' her. None of these women have any clue as to what is really going on. None of these women are trained professionals. Most often these women think trained professionals don't have clue. What too often ends up happening is that these busybodies get the woman to leave...and then these busybodies are nowhere to be found when it comes to paying the rent, getting a job, finding day care for the children, putting food on the table, etc...and the woman who was pressured into leaving ends up in another relationship without ever resolving her own issues concerning the first relationship. Meanwhile the children are led to hate their fathers...which, in turn, becomes internalized (which is what children do...blame themselves for everything) and the children end up thinking there is something wrong with them. Don't even get me started about the push-me-pull-you battles that rage (usually because of those self-same busybodies sticking their noses in again) over custody of the children, raising the children, visitation, etc. It's like 'counseling' someone to move out of their parent's home so they won't want to commit suicide: the problem isn't resolved and more problems are generated. Over the last 6 or 7 years I've watched women jump from one relationship right into another...and maybe even another and another...kids and all, tramping all over the country, destroying (or coming pretty close to destroying) the lives of the men they leave in their wake. All the while they're so proud of themselves...and their busybody 'friends' just keep on telling them what to do, how to do it, when to do it and to whom to do it. What kind of adults will these children become? Certainly not adults that value working out their problems and resolving their issues. Which will lead to yet another generation of busybodies and relationship hoppers. OK. Off rant now.

Looks interesting, but...I don't think I'll ever be satisfied with anything else after Jesus Christ Superstar.

pond...I take your comments with the knowledge that you are not married, choose not to be married, and have not been married for more years than you were ever married (if ever...i dunno for sure).

{{{{{rascal}}}} Say it like it T I is girlfriend! I'm sorry for you and all of the other children in the world who have been forced into such situations by a very selfish, very immature parent.

Thought you would.

If a person gives a vow of monogamy to another person, to break that vow cannot be supported by the bible. Cheating is not an issue of sexuality or theology. Cheating is an issue of trust. Violating trust is called betrayal. Betrayal cannot be supported by the bible.

Cheating implies 'outside of the rules'. If a couple goes into the relationship...or decides at any point in the relationship...that the 'rules' make extra-relationship sex/affairs OK, then it isn't cheating. This is if the couple decides together, imo. I've heard ALL the lines about all the kings in the bible having X number of wives, or that twisted logic about 'all things are lawful', or the myriad of validations a person can pull from the bible to give themselves permission to screw around. It's pure BS. It's designed to belittle, demean, confuse, discourage and disorient a person who has been through hell already. Using the bible to defend one when one is abusing another is just another form of abusiveness. If a person is not getting what a person wants from his/her partner, and a person 'finds' him/herself screwing around, then that person needs to get the hell out of the first relationship or stop screwing around. If there are health issues (and a low sex drive is due to health issues...either physical or mental), then the partner needs to help resolve the health issues...or decide immediately if he/she can live for the rest of their partner's life in such a situation. If a person does not want to be...or does not think he/she can be...in a monogamous relationship, then that person needs to get real and not get into relationships with people who expect monogamy. If it's something a person discovers about him/herself later on...then he/she needs to get out of any monogamous relationship immediately. Cheating is only a problem when it was not expected. IMO.

All of the professionals make sure that people understand that cheating is not about any lack in one's partner and relationship, but is about one's own lack...of maturity, self-control, self worth, etc. Having been cheated on, it's hard to believe this...but it's true. Having had several opportunities and reasons to cheat but not cheating, I know it's true. Something I tell men when they try to convince me to cheat with them "because my wife" blah blah blah: Go home and put this much energy, this much effort, this much time, this much money into convincing your wife that you're somebody worth sleeping with. Trust me, things will change for the better. If one thinks that one has the option of cheating, then one is not putting into the relationship anything close to what one wants to get out of the relationship. See, a person has to give him/herself permission to cheat before he/she even starts the process. It's in a person's mind long before it's in a person's reality. And it was always there from the beginning. Cheating starts waaaaaaaaaaay back when one's coping skills were being formed. Instead of facing one's problems, solving them, then moving on, one learned early in life that the way to cope with problems was to quit in the middle of something and take up something new. In a bad marriage? Loveless? Abusive? Cold? Maybe your partner is dying or something? Whatever excuse it may be, the mature person resolves their situations before getting into others. That's what the professionals say... And that's what my life experience has shown me to be true.

Crash...definitely worth the time!