CoolWaters

Beautiful! Just beautiful! I so needed to read your poem just now, {{{{ILBCW}}}}. Thank you.

Garth...thank you. It took me 4 hours to write that post. If anyone looks back through my posts concerning such things, one can see a 'waffling' of my thoughts, my feelings concerning such things that I experienced. In fact, it wasn't too very long ago...weeks only...when I posted that I didn't know if I was ever going to be anything but broken and screwed up concerning sexuality. Threads like this one and the others that handle the topics found in this thread have helped me look at my own reality...have helped me separate out what I think and feel from what I've been told I should think and feel...have helped me realize that I do know the difference between my sexuality and the violence and control perpetrated against me...have helped me to see that I do not live in a fairy tale mentality. Even though it's always hard, always infuriating, always a slap in the face to involve myself in such threads, it's also been quite purging, certainly ennobling, and always good for my soul. My purpose for participating in such threads has been to help others find these things for their lives. Little did I know it was going to help me. :)

Let's ride with this idea that pedophilia is about 'sex drive'. First, let's remove the stigma. Let's no longer use terms such as 'pedophilia', 'sex drive', 'evil', 'perv', 'compulsion', etc. Let's just talk about this in non-inflammatory, non-derogatory terms. Second, let's take several deep breaths and get beyond our revulsions at talking about minors in a sexual way. Inhale deeply, exhale slowly. 10 times, folks. Ready? OK... On the " new bill in Alaska Legislature on sex offenders" thread Mo, in response to "Alaska ranks high among the states in sex crimes-- wonder why that is" says in her point #3: Do you get what she is saying here? She is saying that when child-protective laws are enforced upon a culture whose children are vastly more mature, more prepared, more likely to marry, breed, etc. at quite young ages, to enforce such laws regardless of the culture is violating the 'spirit of the law'...and inflating the numbers of 'abused' children in Native Alaskan populations. This is a superb point. It is a 'modern' idea that those under 18 are somehow asexual...or at least should be. History clearly shows that sexuality in the pre-teen and teen years was expected and accepted for the vast majority of history. Even us bible-thumpers don't have much of a leg to stand on when it comes to the asexuality of teens...for wasn't Mary, the mother of Jesus, a young teenager? And there are still cultures today, as Mo has pointed out, where children are prepared to expect and accept their own sexuality. So, could this possibly be where the problem lies? Could it be possible that it is normal for children to be seen as sexual beings? On the surface of the question it's almost a "Duh!" answer, isn't it? I mean, seriously, children 'play doctor' as early as 3yo and they are known to begin masturbating at about the same age. 'Playing house' with a mommy and a daddy and a baby or two is common play among elementary school children. These things are expected and accepted even in the most up-tight cultures. One could argue, "Yeah, but that's between children, not between adults and children." Well, history also shows that marriages between vastly older men and young, often pre-teen, girls was expected and accepted for the vast majority of history. Even today in mainstream America it is accepted under the law. Many 'age of consent' laws allow that a 12yo girl has arrived at the 'age of consent'. (Kansas changed that age to 16 just a couple or so years ago.) Rape laws concerning minors follow the 'age of consent' laws pretty closely. In fact, society in general expects and accepts the sexuality of children from puberty on. And doesn't society in general really accept that children, regardless of age, are sexual beings? Of course. Why else would gender identity be such an issue? Why else do we dress our baby girls in pink and ribbons and our baby boys in blue and baseball caps? We want our children from birth to be 'real boys' or 'real girls'. There's only one honest reason to so exaggeratedly define gender identity: procreation. And procreation is about sexuality. Plain and simple. I don't think that anybody would argue otherwise. I certainly don't. So now comes the hard question... What is wrong with Grandpa or Uncle or Grandma or Auntie or the good friend of the family..or even the kind neighbor or school teacher...being sexual with our children? Before I answer this question I am going to share two personal experiences of mine. WARNING! What follows could be triggering and/or 'disgusting/offensive'. When I was growing up our back fence was on the property line between my folk's property and a neighbor's property. The two back yards were separated by the fence. Well, that neighbor was a nudist. It was common for him to run around his back yard completely naked. Of course, his back yard was presumably very private. His back fence was a 6' tall wooden privacy fence. Our back fence line and his other neighbor's side fence line were made private with very thick, very tall (about 5') hedge bushes. But don't we all know about kids? Put up something to keep them out, they're gonna find a way in. Tell them not to look...they're gonna look for sure. And me, my brother and my sister, ages just turned 5, almost 3 and almost 2 the first time...we scrambled our way under those hedge bushes and we looked. This went on for years. We were not scared or offended. We did not feel abused or in any other way damaged. In fact, we giggled a whole lot and really enjoyed it when he came over and talked to us. We really liked this guy. He was funny, did magic tricks, talked to us honestly and openly about the human body whenever we asked questions, even let us poke fun at him when he was doing yard work and got into some very funny looking positions. :o Yep. I said all that. And here's another story from when I was growing up... My grandpa (may he rest in peace) has always been my most favorite person in the whole wide world. He understood me. He was a good, kind, gentle man. He turned my severe dyslexia into a gift by teaching me that I had 'magic eyes' and that I saw things the way they really were...everybody else was wrong. This was long before the word 'dyslexia' came into common vocabulary. He had no boys of his own, my brother was too young and too crippled as a child to do typical boy stuff, and I was a difficult tomboy. It fell on Grandpa's shoulders to 'handle' me because Grandpa was the only person in the world I was willing to behave for. He taught me how to work on cars, how to throw a baseball and a football, how to build things, how to comprehend mathematics and science, and all very wonderful things that I would have missed out on if I had behaved myself. One of the first books I remember reading besides the 'Dick and Jane' books was Grandpa's Handbook of Chemistry and Physics. I was in the 3rd grade. As you can see, me and Grandpa were buddies like no other buddies in the whole wide world. One other thing Grandpa introduced me to was sexual love. There was never any penetration, never any force, never any shame, never any blame, never any threats. In fact, Grandpa didn't even say anything like, "This is our secret," or "You have to keep this secret". There was never any conversation at all...before, during or after these times. It was just one other thing me and Grandpa did together. And I loved him just as much, if not more. :o Yep. I said all that. So, back to the question... What is wrong with Grandpa or Uncle or Grandma or Auntie or the good friend of the family..or even the kind neighbor or school teacher...being sexual with our children? I'm not going to answer this question because, 1)It is not for me to determine, and 2)It is fallacious to the topic of this thread. Because the topic of this thread is not about human sexuality. The topic of this thread is about a person who exerted violence and control not for sexual gratification, but for the thrill of exerting violence and control. If anyone doesn't get this, if anyone cannot differentiate between human sexuality and violence and control... Well...there's a tell-tale sign...of something...if I ever saw one... IMO.

TYVM Garth. Please let me know if you can explain this to me...which maybe nobody can...hehehe.

Mo, well handled! I have been hesitant to discuss this "culture shock problem" you describe. There is something vitally important about raising children in such a way that they are prepared in every way to live in this world...

These are the issues that need to be addressed. First, the more power and authority one wields, the more likely one is to get exactly what one wants. He told this real world information to intimidate and control. If the person this man was chatting with had actually been a 14yo girl, who the ph**ck was she going to tell...who the ph**ck would have believed her? No 14yo girl would have even thought to tell. She would have been too intimidated. One needs to understand that he didn't just 'give out' his real world information...he used his real world information. And he used it knowing that it would be so intimidating that no child would ever have the courage to go against him and actually tell on him. It never crossed his mind that he would be caught. Those with the power and authority this man had do not have to think about getting caught. Catching this man was pure accident...pure luck of the chat room surveillance draw. Second, it is not as difficult as one would think to spot these perpetrators. It takes knowing and recognizing the tell-tale signs. Really. It is that simple. What I think needs to happen is to have a think tank of recovering victims. I guarandamntee you that every victim recognizes every perpetrator. Get us all together and get us talking about the things that tell us who these perps are...talking about how we protect ourselves. And believe us. I have never known a recovering victim to be wrong in his/her instincts. I do, however, know how all too often our instincts get pushed down due to fear of being ostracized, mockery, ridicule, further attacks...

For those who may be interested, my pastor (and a couple of others of us) blogs and discusses some interesting stuff. Go to Revolution's homepage and click on the 'Blogs' link. Please be respectful. OK? TYVM.

OK, on a place where I blog I have the option to 'Syndicate this blog'. So I click on that and am supposed to open or save to disk some .php file. I've gone to a couple of web sites trying to get an understanding of this...but am getting more confused. What is this? What program do I need to open .php files? What kind of files are they? Ect., etc., etc.

David... I'm sure I can scrounge up $32 if you're bringing all 32 g-strings...

While getting up in arms about this, does anybody know the age of consent in this situation? Or the age at which the law differentiates between 'misconduct' and rape? I have long been SHOUTING at lawmakers and all others who 'serve' our children that as long as this country perceives anyone under 18 to be able to 'consent', or sees pubescent children as more capable in their abilities to understand sexuality, then this country is simply giving a nod of approval to such predators as Brian Doyle.

Way back in 1998 I had a long telephone conversation with John Lynn. Next thing I know, he's sent me many books from CES and I'm on the mailing list...getting everything from newsletter to begging letters. I wrote CES a letter and told them to STOP sending me their stuff...I was NOT interested, would NEVER be interested, and would NOT send any money. It was December 2005 before I stopped receiving the stuff...and only then because I moved and DIDN'T put in a forwarding address... Now they can't afford to hand out the thing free?

krys..."no men" as in "if there are going to be men, the men are going to be wearing g-strings under their pants and we're going to stuff those pants with dollar bills hoping to get to the g-strings". It's Kansas City, girl! LOTS of options for flirting...hehehehe. Safari Vista...hmmm...well...how Gone Wild can a girl get with kids in tow? ;) Tom...WD...jealousy does not become either one of you!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!! Good one, David!

Bringing this back to the top upon request.

It's time, ladies, for Girls of GreaseSpot Gone Wild! (Thank you to sudossuda for the name! :) ) So who would be interested in an all girl, no men or kids, get-together here in Kansas City in late June?

Funny (not 'haha' funny...interesting funny) that you post this today. I was going to start a thread in Open called, "Irreconcilable Differences: Why?". A couple of things in your post jumped out at me: And: Phew! A whole lot here packed in a little bit of words! Just before reading your post, I was praying...had been praying all day...about why I seem to be able to get along with people only 'from a distance'. You've given me a beginning of the answer. My experience in life is that most people want a quick fix...they'll take care of the important things 'later'...but right NOW they have this 'interruption' that they want fixed NOW. Why bother to 'fix' something momentarily? Unless it is a dire need emergency...the only thing that can be done for the moment so that the situation can survive long enough to get to the underlying problem...a quick fix is more damaging because it doesn't address the cause of the problem. A quick fix is like pulling abscessed teeth while ignoring the diabetes that is causing the teeth to rot away. This makes me crazy!!!! To me, changing my mind is required to grow. I want to grow every day. Getting me to change my mind is hard work, though--even and especially if it's me trying to change my own mind--because I want substantial, problem-solving growth. Which is only accomplished, imo, via such things as those 7 factors listed above. If I am to change my mind, I first and foremost want sound reasoning. Don't give me your reasoning; don't give me other people's reasoning. Give me reasoning based upon things like research and real world events. Now if your reasoning and/or other people's reasoning are based upon such things, then tell me so. Expound to me your position. If I don't get it, then use such things as representational re-descriptions. I'm not sure how Gardner is using resonance, resource and rewards, and resistances in this context. Anyway, what I'm saying is that it takes a lot of honest--and sometimes creative--communication, hard 'evidence', definitive examples on both sides of the coin, and more conversation for me to change my mind. This makes most everybody I know crazy!!!! Often I find myself being 'of the same mind still'...but keeping my mouth shut because it's such a battle to get people to truly communicate with me. Yes, it's hard to 'get through to me'. I think it should be...for me or anybody. I didn't used to think like this...but what I and others have gone through to get the Way International out of our heads changed my mind. Great topic! Thank you very much!

The one and only thing that comes to my mind is William Hung's American Idol audition...."She bang! She bang!"...

Like you said..."Un freakin real."

White Dove, Your twi experiences may not reflect the extreme and bizarre and deadly aspects many of us experienced, but I do know that your twi experiences...and the results of your twi indoctrination...weren't/aren't all that godly. Come to think of it, in at least two different situations I know of, your twi experiences paralleled mine. Yet you let people terribly hurt and wickedly destroyed by twi think that you have 'enjoyed' a different outcome in your life. This is part of the insidious crooked thinking taught to you by pfal/twi. I know another man (someone you know) who does the same thing you're doing here. He even preaches from his self-made pulpit how proud he is of never letting anybody see that he has any problems in life. He slinks around after his 'church' services seeking out people he knows are having problems (he knows this because he's their 'pastor', after all, so people turn to him with open hearts) and offers them a chance to, and I quote him here, "live in the bubble". If someone does not accept his offer, he sets out to destroy them...because, and I quote him here again, "they have a spirit of pride I won't let into my church". It took me years to realize that he probably doesn't even know what he's doing...that he, in fact, is so dyed-in-the-wool twit brained that he can't see anything else. (Now here's an opportunity for you to use that knowledge you so dearly cleave to. "Dyed-in-the-wool" is a specific sort of figure of speech with a very specific meaning. I don't use it lightly.) It is a deep hurt to my heart to see people I have known and loved for 31 years (yeah...I'm including you here) live in such denial and crooked thinking that they have lost their ability to love their neighbors as themselves...because it is obvious they do not love themselves. Once upon a time, White Dove, both you and this other man I speak of would have died for your brothers and sisters in Christ. What little I ever experienced in twi of anything even remotely close to the love Jesus has for us, it was because of people like you and this other man. All of these years later I've looked up such folks. All of you have changed. All of you have become unrecognizable. All of you have 'evolved' so far away from that simple love you held. I was the same way. You know that! You saw how I treated Bob in his last days of life! (Dear God in heaven, hear my plea. I am sorry.) The Lord awakened me from that deep slumber. He did it via the many, many witnesses that would not let me stay asleep. So I say to you, "Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light." I ask you to read all of Ephesians 5 so that you can have a full understanding of who Paul was saying is asleep. You may not be able to receive this right now. It took me years to even begin to comprehend that I was asleep. I won't let you stay asleep if I can help it in any way. I won't let you lull me back to sleep, either. ********************************** rascal, This one's for you.

Way back in 1989 I sought professional help to get myself weaned away from twi. My therapist's name was Xena (for real!). She had grown up with Jim Jones (Jonestown) and became a therapist specifically to help people come out of dangerous and abusive religious situations. So, Xena, reading your posts is especially nice for me. :) And hiya Danny! So nice to have your input! :) OK...sorry for this brief interruption. Carry on.

OK...what psychiatrists???? Send 'em over to the pot thread. :) BROWNIES... You are adventurous, love new ideas, and a champion of underdogs and a slayer of dragons. When tempers flare up, you whip out your saber. You are always the oddball with a unique sense of humor and direction. You tend to be very loyal.

Bramble, awwwwwwww tyvm! Toppie (I got to calling you this after hearing it so much in chat one evening...is that OK?), I hope you enjoy your stay out of the woodwork...and thank you for sharing here! {{{{{Watered Garden}}}}}, I haven't forgotten how you have helped me so very much with health and other issues. StrangeTom, dude, got anymore brownies? :) Everybody... You're all just too kewl.

White Dove, I get some truth out of everything. In fact, the very first problem I ever had in Alaska was because a branch leader overheard me saying, "There's truth in everything. Without the truth, there would be no lie." One of my all-time favorite movies is What Dreams May Come. I like the movie so much mainly because of the scene where the husband chooses to stay in hell with his wife rather than leave her there alone. To me that scene brought to life how the Good Shepherd will leave the flock in safety while He goes to find the one lost sheep. It depicts how important just one life is to God. It depicts Jesus' love for us. That scene was, for me, the antithesis of twi's take on things. Because of that scene, my twit brain began to crack even more than it ever had before...even more than after all the horrendous evil twi manifested in Alaska. Another one of my all-time favorite movies is Stigmata. Until I saw that movie, I never grasped the actual, physical reality of Jesus bearing the cross. TWI never taught me or showed me the love of Jesus. TWI made the cross of Christ foolishness and a stumblingblock. In two very spread out and unrelated hours I learned more about Jesus and His love for me than I ever learned in all the hours of pfal, all the hours of twig, all the hours of branch meetings, all the hours of limb meetings, all the hours of sns tapes, all the hours of all of my life in twi. Why? Because pfal, and, therefore, the monster pfal spawned (aka twi), was a pack of lies with a bunch of half-truths tossed in to make it believable. How do I know this about pfal and twi for an absolute certainty? Because of the rotten fruit of pfal and twi. How do I know it's rotten fruit? For starters I have never heard of one single home to which pfal brought more harmony. Adultery is the standard in twi, not the exception. In fact, adultery is heralded as something one can 'enjoy' if one is 'spiritually mature enough to handle it'. Domestic abuse is the standard in twi, not the exception. In fact, twi 'leadership' will go so far as to pit husband against wife, wife against husband, parents against children...just for the sake of twi. Pedophilia is routinely covered up in twi. In fact, twi leadership will go so far as to hide perpetrators from due justice...all for the sake of twi. This is just for starters when it comes to rotten fruit of pfal and the monster pfal spawned (aka twi). And don't go telling me that pfal didn't support any of this hogwash. Piffle ignored these basic biblical truths concerning such matters. BUT, if you (or anyone else) want to hold to pfal and the monster it spawned (aka twi), be my guest. I think you'd be far better off making a class out of the two above-mentioned movies and living your life according to the truths found in them. Because you'd at least know how to make Jesus your lord and not just give the pfal version of puffed-up knowledge and lip service to the concept.

{{{{{Mo}}}}} The healing...that you and I were never allowed to even imagine... The relationship you and I should have had from the beginning...that twi broke irrevocably...or so twi thought...but WayDale and GreaseSpot Cafe broke twi and the things they thought, huh? If for no other reason on the face of the earth, the online ex-way community has brought you and I to where He intended us to be with one another. I'm just so very sorry all the other stuff happened. {{{{{Mo}}}}} Here's to you, sister of mine. You are one class act.