CoolWaters

As it should be, imo...because of exactly what has been done on this thread to make it hard on people who speak up. It should be hard to find the stories...otherwise the creeps on this thread would make GSC about nothing but their creepiness...as has been exemplified. When we post from our hearts, we're often posting when our hearts are touched deeply. There's no cataloguing what happened into nice, neat, easy-to-find files. That's not how it all happened, that's not how it feels inside, that's not how it's remembered, and that's not how our lives are lived. Waiting on GT to come along and post all the places this is discussed? Why? What's so friggin' difficult about doing a search? And, quite frankly, I'm with ExC on this...who the ph*** wants this stuff showcased, anyway? What kind of voyeurism is that?

Ummm...I thought we agreed...what happens in Kansas City stays in Kansas City... (Guess I'd better give Paw back his live mic that I'm taping to myself this very minute...)

Say it ain't so! I cannot think of a better way to listen to twi teaching tapes than with Procul Harum in the background...

I'd LOVE to hear that tape #214, WD.

I don't have a copy of RTHS any longer, so I can't pull it out and post quotes. Those of you who do, can and will, are there any quotes that tie Jesus as Lord to 'operating the manifestations'? I have no recollection of Jesus ever being Lord when twi taught people what to do. Sure, there were lots of references to Jesus as Lord whenever twi wanted to add validity to their spiel, but when twi want to teach people exactly what to do, twi left Jesus out of the picture. From my recollection. But it has been over 10 years since I've even seen a copy of RTHS...and over 20 years since I've read any part of RTHS. I could be recalling incorrectly. GASP. :blink: :unsure:

Here's the rub for me... There are many threads already here that deal with this topic. Women have come forward with their experiences. It's very difficult to do such a thing in private. To come forward out on the 'net on a public forum like this one is far more difficult than anybody can imagine. Especially this particular forum for these particular women...because there is a certain faction on this board who will and have ripped these women up one side and down the other. With pure venom and evil, imo. Now along comes somebody and, innocently or not, asks these women to come forward again. None of these women are doing so. Anybody thought of why these women aren't posting their experiences here? Could it be that they've posted and posted, been ripped to pieces repeatedly, and just are not willing to do it all over again? Last night in chat the SOSDD (same old s**t, different day) started up, too...again... I know that I am at the point of telling people to search the threads if they really wanna know what happened in Alaska. I'll bet those who can directly speak to the topic of this thread are thinking the same thing. Why should anybody feel obligated to make somebody else's life easier by making their own life more difficult? The rub of this thread is the expectation of personal sacrifice for the sole purpose that others don't have to do much for themselves. You who are questioning really want to know? I say do the legwork yourself...if you really just want information. Otherwise you're giving all indication that you're trying to cast aspersions upon those who have come forward...and trying to cover such an attempt with an innocent face of, "well I'm just asking and it's all buried too deep to be found..." blah blah blah. IMO. Am I being too harsh, too negative, too suspicious, too bitter? I don't care any longer. Unless you've put your most personal and most difficult experiences out here and been ripped to pieces in all ways possible on such a board...and have done so repeatedly with the same results...then you're in no position to judge in this matter...and you're certainly in no position to demand satisfaction of your 'curiosity'.

Now you're arguing with yourself OM.

Go 'round and 'round the mulberry bush if ya wanna... The bottom line is that regardless of any specific inflection of voice or twist of words or sin of omission, the general air of twi followers has always been one of smug elitism. That elitism is a direct result of fully believing that whatever Jesus said, did or knew was transferred to 'believers', therefore 'believers' walk on this earth as Jesus walked, which, in turn, makes 'believers' as Jesus unto this world. I dare say that not one person who swallowed twi doctrine ever turned to Jesus for His input before speaking in tongues, prophesying, laying on of hands, commanding debbil spurts or whatever. Hell, even when we thought we were doing the will of the Lord when doing such things, we were NEVER allowing Jesus to lead us. Quite the opposite! It was taught to us that we operate holy spirit...that holy spirit was a gift much like a chain saw or a hammer or a sewing machine...there for our use when we wanted to use it, otherwise sitting idly by waiting for us to come along and turn it on and operate it. Jesus wasn't even mentioned! So not only was Jesus left out of the picture, but the one who He sent in His place was nothing more to us than a tool to be used at our will. And this was taught on tape, on video, in books...like it or not. No lordship of Jesus at all. We were taught to be a lord unto our own will.

Even more sadly is that we were told we had taken His place...and we believed it. I'm so very sorry, Lord.

David you chatterbox! I had no clue!

Most animals will tell you their names...in their actions...in their moods...in their personalities...or one day he'll be looking at you and all of a sudden you'll just know his name. What was his name before you got him? Does he answer to it? If so, better to let him keep it. Our dog came named Killer. Now there's not a thing killer about this dog. He's gentle and kind and playful. But he won't answer to anything else. Sigh.

Tried to keep my keyboard shut up on this one... But DANG Eagle! If you are looking for a 'smoking gun' or something, couldn't you have said it a better way? Like, "I skim over most of the posts by you gals who claim things happened, so know that I'm not really listening..."

Welllll... This weekend in KC is the GGGW...and men are allowed...if they're in full drag. Try it! You might like it!

Yeah. I've learned that, too. Very different perspective from twi's. More peaceful within, imo. I'm just now starting to grasp this...and as I type I'm feeling myself become more and more comfortable with myself. TYVM! I'll put it to her as from you and not me...that way she'll hear it. LOL Yes! That's what I was trying to say. I see this over and over again with the coming out, returning to reality process. Maybe because if those who want you to buy their products were as nasty and controlling as vpw et al, they'd not have any customers...? I dunno. Good question...especially since I do remember many commercial jingles from even 40 years ago... :blink:

Oh...one more thing...OM and I have this funky relationship these days...he says what he wants, I say what I want, and we go our merry way. It's better than hating him...or him hating me.

I don't know, Tom. Really. In my current life, I have realized that the majority of the 'negative' situations I find myself in have all stemmed from me not being satisfied within myself...me wanting something 'more' than what I have...me thinking that there's something wrong with me that needs to be fixed. It's a real eye-opener for me to realize this about myself. So I've been looking within to figure out how I built such a habit pattern of thinking in my life. Between the conversation with my daughter last evening and what I read today on ExC's thread, it hit me that before twi, I believed that whatever I needed and/or wanted in life was within me and within my abilities to have and/or obtain. Then I searched within myself for the hook that pulled me into twi. It was a nagging suspicion that my mother and father were right about me: I was going to crash and burn because of my own arrogance. The very first time I attended twig I heard a SNS tape with vpw teaching/preaching. I made fun of his voice. I never really heard the teaching/preaching at all because I kept thinking, "This guy sounds like one of the Munchkins in The Wizard of Oz!" and it cracked me up so much that I couldn't think about anything else. (I was 16, OK? Probably stoned a little bit, too. ) Anyway, boy oh boy did I get reamed!!!!!!!!!!!!! Of course, I wasn't listening to the reaming...because, OMG, they were making it even funnier with their defense of the Munchkin Preacher Man. Then one of the girls said something my parents always said to me. That sobered me up and got my attention. It took 3 years to convince me that I was wrong and needed piffle. 3 years of rape. 3 years of bearing false witness against me in a court of law. 3 years of being told exactly what was wrong with me. 3 years of being squeezed like a juice orange of all that was good, nourishing, and healthy within me. Then the final blow came when my twig leader told me that I'd never measure up to Craig or anything close if I didn't even take piffle. But that first hook was the one that took. Everything else was just reeling me in. And that hook is the same hook that has been used on me all of these years. Until I finally saw it for what it was...just today. So I really cannot answer your question...because now I see things totally differently than I've seen them in over 3 decades. It's new to me. So I just don't know. I know, buddy. I don't take too much as arguing these days. Disagreeing is healthy. And, for what it's worth, I'd just have to laugh if you were actually arguing with me...'cause you're sooooooooo cute!

Well, OM, each will have his/her own, won't they? I don't begrudge anybody what they choose in life until what they choose starts overstepping boundaries. Every boundary I had in twi was not just overstepped, but erased and redrawn to suit twi's needs...until finally I had no boundaries at all where twi was concerned. The bottom line cause of this was my personal dissatisfaction within myself. I see that sentiment repeated here again and again. Maybe not in so many words, but in posts like QT's here: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=251670 . We each had to buy into twi to make twi work. That's a no-brainer, imo. I'm not here to berate, belittle, chastise, condemn, judge, or anything like that at all. I'm not pointing fingers at individuals. My only purpose is to expose the mentality for what it was/is...so that anybody caught up in the maelstrom might just see something that will help them get out of that maelstrom. When you come along and whitewash things (and you do whitewash things, OM) as just another day in the life of a Christian, you do devalue the truth of what really went on for far more of us than not. When doing so, OM, you exemplify the mentality. So please don't stop posting like that! It's good for people to see an example in action. But also please recognize that your defense of the mentality is also a defense of the actions...like it or not. So you're going to stir up trouble for yourself. I'm aware that you probably don't care, or, maybe more correctly, you may even see it as 'proof' of something you should be doing in life. I dunno. That's for your own personal thoughts. Whatever, your words do tend to denigrate others in the threads in which you participate...by your very obvious technique of making everything personal and twisting everything into a cat fight. But whatever you think you need to float your boat, I'm not complaining.

You know what? If anybody wants to take this personally, so be it. If the shoe fits....

Again, this isn't about anyone being 'bad' in some way. This is about how twi capitalized upon personal dissatisfaction...drive, ambition, whatever you want to call it. People who are satisfied within themselves don't usually care to even listen to people offering 'what I have'. There's no need.

Look in the book of Acts ... folks made Christianity an exciting adventure for themselves... folks had goals and dreams and they acted out on them, with urgency. Life like that isn't always safe... but can be more exciting than the day to day mundane events of some. To each his own. I rest my case.

And here's the baited hook in all of its bald nastiness. The real message behind this mentality is, "Rape? Pedophilia? Adultery? Drunkeness? If all you see is the negative, you're not going to get THE WORD. Don't you want THE WORD? Don't you want POWER for ABUNDANT living? Don't you know if not NOW, when? If not YOU, who?" The very idea that true Christianity comes at the cost of children's innocence, women's safety, men's sound mind is the hoax. Not the other way around. None of us would have turned a blind eye or deaf ear to the truth of twi if we hadn't questioned our own abilities, our own understandings, our own wisdom. If we had been satisfied with our own abilities, our own understandings, our own wisdom, we would have torn down twi a long, long time ago. Long before it ever got so big that it's going to live forever on interest payments alone. Long before it got chopped up into so many pieces that nobody really knows how widespread the poison has been flung. Long before generations of children being destroyed. If we were satisfied within our own hearts, there would never have been a twi to speak of beyond, "Oh, yeah, that little church up on the farm. Yeah, they're odd ducks, but they're harmless." Because we would have stopped the harm. If we had been satisfied within our own hearts. TWI knew this. TWI knows this now. TWI takes this personal dissatifaction within one's heart... And turns it into the bootiful sound of CHA-CHING.

rascal! I didn't see your post at first...but WOW! Yes, yes, yes! I'm not posing a question of the validity or invalidity of dissatisfaction. I'm posing a question of the validity of being driven by twi to be dissatisfied just so twi could keep going.

Wow! You've done better summing this up than I have. TY.

Mark, we are agreeing in general...just disagreeing in semantics. IMO. You said in your first post here what I'm saying: "Many of us were dissatisfied with what we saw going on in traditional, orthodox Christianity and believed that TWI was genuinely trying to get back to the 1st Century Church." Being dissatisfied, in and of itself, is not good and is not bad. My point is what twi was able to do with our thinking because we came to twi dissatisfied. TWI honed in on that dissatisfaction, nurtured it, gave us other reasons to be dissatisfied, nurtured those, and then, after all the subtle love-bombing type of 'hints', finally out-and-out railed at us that there was something terribly wrong with us if we didn't want anything better for ourselves besides living, loving, giving and helping...and that 'better' being defined by twi. If one wants 'better' or 'closer' or 'more', one is wanting something different than what one has. If one is satisfied with what one has, one does not go looking for something different. The heart of the message of Jesus is to be satisfied with one's self in one's relationship with God. Not to be always questioning, always seeking something 'better', always measuring up to higher and higher standards. John 17 is a great testament to what Jesus perceived as the standard. TWI nurtured dissatisfaction. TWI did this to keep people from sitting still long enough to see through twi's BS. It's a technique.

Interesting discussion along the lines I'm thinking here: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=8214