ClayJay

Thanks T-Bone, thanks for your lengthy literary effort there-I did read it-but, no thanks. I have seen these arguments here hundreds of times. I know that you all want me to come to the same conclusions that you all have come to, but, I haven't, won't, and never will. But I appreciate your concern, really. Okay Ham, you got me there when you said what you just said. Let me re-phrase it, okay? : .I just can't remember being put into an Iron Maiden, or a "stretch rack", or having my thumbs put into "thumb screws", ya know? I mean, if you just want to disagree with me because my opinion is anathema here, then you can make an issue of what I had said, but, I think that you can see a large difference between the spiritual oppression when in The Way and the days when the RC Church perpetrated the Spanish Inquisition. I mean, c'mon bruh, give it to me. You know that there was a huge difference. Is it because my opinion-so different than y'alls-just might "upset the apple cart", or cause some recent escapee from The Way to consider what I say? I mean, y'all seem to get really riled by this opinion. I mean, people here are allowed to make their own decisions as to what they believe, right? And, if I am so "dead wrong", as Gamaliel (or one of those "good guy pharisees") said; "it will come to nought". So, why the "panties in a bunch" hyper concern? Signed, "Jackalbait"

What about "I know it was bad, it was abusive and hurtful" do you not understand? The only difference between me and others here is the "time table" of when the evil set in and what to do about it now that the abuses have been made known. You don't need to convince me of the abuses.

Sigh.....No WS, I am not. I am simply comparing the sin that took down the FC Church and saying that it is no different than the sin found anywhere in the history of man, regardless of which organization gets/has gotten entangled in it. The results are always destructive and hurtful to varying degrees, and what happened in The Way is no different than the varying degrees in which sin has been hurtful throughout history. You may believe as you choose, and likewise, so will I. Cheers! :)

It's simple Waysider. The .... that went down was bad. People got hurt. Sin got the "bit in it's teeth" and began to rule TWI until it crumbled. It reminds me of all the sin that we saw amongst the believers in the Old Testament, the sin that went down in the First Century Church which the Apostle Paul addressed in the Church epistles. Nothing new under the sun dude. And as for me, I prefer to take the good things that I learned, continue to utilize them, and discard that which I believe to be Biblically inaccurate, discard any bad memories which I chalk up to "sin nature/human nature" and help others to do the same if I can. I have said it before and I will say it again. I believe that VP started out as a good guy who wanted to help others live the more than abundant life, but quickly allowed his sin nature to rule as he "looked to the left and then to the right" and did not keep his "eyes turned upon Jesus". He had a weakness for women and succumbed to it, abusing his trust as a Minister. And I am in no way equating VP with King David, but David, a man after God's own heart, knocked up Uriah's wife and then had Uriah killed, which p**sed God off mightily! And God forgave David. I think God could also forgive VP, had VP asked. But we don't know if VP did that or not. Guess that's in God's ball park. And, when the wealth began to flow in via the Biblical principle called tithing, he abused that also. A good thing gone bad. Like the Catholic Church, the Labor Unions, the charitable organizations who have abused their power, VP and the hierarchy in The Way abused their power. Just like countless HUMAN ORGANIZATIONS have done! The list goes on and on and on and on. The sins comitted in The Way come nowhere near the level committed by the Roman Catholic Church during the Spanish Inquisition. And yet, I don't hear much ranting here about the RC like I do TWI. Read the book "The People Of The Book", an amazing account of how the RCs persecuted Jews during the Inquisition. It was sad to learn that the RCs persecuted not only Christians who believed differently than them, but also Hebrews/Jews who didn't accept the Catholic religion. History is full of ABUSES by religious organizations, and The Way, sadly, was/is no exception. Yet, it's THE ONE WE ALL HERE WERE INVOLVED WITH. Okay, so, what to do? Well, I say, and I know that this opinion is not welcome here-thus saith Oakespeare-that the best way to deal with these years gone by is to FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASSED AGAINST US, and leave it all in the dust as we move down Life's Highway to bigger and better things! WTF is so wrong with that? IMO, nothing... But, I personally respect many of the things I learned in PFAL, The Word Of God that I learned and am appreciative of it until this day. I refuse to believe that I was a "duped automaton" as some here continue to try and convince others that they were in fact just that. I made my decision to be involved by the freedom of my will, and when things began to spiral out of control as Sin reared it's Ugly Head, I walked. I think it entirely unproductive to wallow in the Past, "get angry all over again" (which I have seen here alot), and I think that this site in many ways helps to perpetuate that "gettin' angry all over again" attitude. That's my opinion "and I'm sticking to it". Life's too short and too sweet to get angry about all of this stuff over and over again. Hey! I too was a Wayfer dagnabbit! And I have an opinion about my time in, and so, I express it. Hopefully WS, I have answered the other side of your question. And, as GarthP used to say...Cheers!

Whatever you do Patriot, do NOT use a Bible, for, those things were used in PFAL.

Yes, I heard those recordings. And yes, that was some bad ..... It happened. So, what's your point?

Some guy says this: Yet, why is it okay for you all to say that I need to do it YOUR way? That I need to read and re-read of all the "horrors" of The Way in order to be "delivered". Someone named Rascal, who has a "Yoda" icon (who must be "all wise" like "Yoda") told me this: So, now I am being "psycho-analyzed" by someone who looks like a rat, is not a professional psychiatrist and I am simply to accept it? No one here saying that this analysis is "unwelcome". AND it's way okay for this person to imply to me what I must do "fella", that I should "examine and consider", etc. So, this is welcome here, but this Oakspeare guy says; "What's not welcome is your opinion of how everyone else should do it your way". Okay, I get it now. You all may tell me that what works/worked for you is something that I too should do, but, "you Clay Johnson are not welcome to tell anyone here to do what worked/works for you". Okay. Right. Like I said, some church you have here. It's either "Our Way or the Highway!" Gee that certainly sounds awfully familiar! Sounds just like....TWI 2! Am I now Marked and to be Avoided? Well, at least DMiller seems to be a of kind heart. Really sir, I appreciated your post. No, I don't play banjo. Did a long time ago. Only guitar now. I love Doc Watson and Chet Atkins. Oh, and I was thinking, maybe I should change my screen name to "Jackalbait".

Sorry, I just could not resist this after I read onephile's "gift" of a quote: Okay! so, you can have your poop and eat it too! Stay in it! Wallow in it! Yumm!

Oh. "Grand Daughter" is a satyrical statement. That's cool.

One more thing. Tzaia said in her thoughtful post, at the very end of it: Well, the fact is, I was very involved with The Way. And it definitely was not all roses. And so, here at this forum, I have chosen to: "share how I've dealt with issues that have come up in my experience" and what I think will be helpful to others here who were in the same boat. But, it just doesn't happen to be in line with the status quo here. I am not in lock step with you all, so, my opinion is unwelcome, so, I guess, "There's the door bucko!" You people have a weird church here.

My oh my, such kindness towards someone who, as Rascal says; I mean, at least Yoda is sad for me and not vindictive. Thank you Rascal. So please Kris, put a condom on your middle finger so that you don't freeze it off... And Tzaia, thank you for your thoughtful post. It was kind. Whoa. Glad I'm not you, for, God is not mocked.

Obviously there are other forums here that are a sidetrack from the main subject at hand. And these other forums, although entertaining and somewhat fun to be sure, are not the main focus at this place. The main thrust of this whole place is The Way International and it's effect on those involved and those whose involvement was in the past. And I contend that dwelling on the negs of the past is less than healthy, that's all. Sure, learn of the negs that were behind the scenes that you didn't know about when In, but for your own sakes, move on! And so, you know, that's just little ol me's opinion. Anyone here may do as they wish. Clay Johnson

Grand-Daughter, First of all, I love your screen name. It's so...respectful! Anyway, I agree with everything you said. I too get scared in this old world at times. And I too have taken myself to the doctor a time or twenty. Yet at other times I have prayed and God has delivered me. Lord knows I am not saying that I have never feared! Shoot fire, of course I have! But when I don't, and trust Gods' promises instead, I see His deliverance. I am simply thankful that God's Word is so SOLID that I can trust that He will answer my prayers when I trust Him to do so. Fear is always gnawing at our minds, but thank Jesus that we can follow his exampleship in not succumbing to the fear. No doubt he had major fear right in his face, yet he faced it down and told it to "go to hell" so ta speak. And because he did it, we too can do the same, and that old devil has gotta back off from us, yeah!! I hate that sumbitch. One day he'll get his.

Actually, I really do believe that this place has it's purpose. The light shed on the shenannigans and the deception once perpetrated by Way MOGs is needed. But it seems as if many-and not all-seem to hash, hash, and rehash the negatives over and over and over, and I mean for years! And that seems to me as if it would in fact have a deleterious effect on said hashers here at this TWI splinter group.

My big brother, who was going to Rutgers University at the time went to Woodstock. I was only 12 at the time. But later, a friend and I sneaked off and saw the movie, and somehow my Mom found out, and I got in big trouble for it, for, there was actual "nudity" in the film. The bummer of it was, there wasn't very much nudity and my friend and I were disappointed! Got into trouble for not all that much! The film was interesting though.

I have stumbled upon another Way International "splinter group". There are many out there for sure. There's the Geerites, Stiffy, CFF, small groups in cities across America who used to be in The Way but only fellowship with their old Branch, and no doubt many more. I guess there are some in South America. And most of these splinter groups hold on to one , many, or all aspects of the teachings we received when we were in The Way. Some utilize the original PFAL class, while others do teachings that are offshoots of PFAL. But most are a positive bunch, happy with the things they teach each other, and have their fellowship around the teachings that they have in common and embrace. I remember my high school years as a dope smoker and the "fellowship" that came with being on that common ground with my stoner friends. Shoot, the "new conversation" was endless! We could talk about the various strains of reefer, the difference between bamboo bongs and Plexiglass bongs, how nice it was to buy a pound for $150.00, sell ten lids, get the money back and have two free ounces for private consumption, what it was like "last night when we got the munchies and raided so and so's refrigerator and ate an entire half of a left over prime rib, etc. We could talk about the Chinese fire drills we all had with three cars abreast at a stop light with everyone getting back into a different car. Lots of funniness, lots of heavy laughing, and good common ground fellowship. Of course, we didn't call it "fellowsip" but in essence, that's what it was. When we were in class and were stoned, when we saw a pal and recognized that they were stoned too, we would give each other the look that said "we knew". We knew man, we knew! Like when we were in The Way. We knew that we had the one and only "true version" of God's Word, and fellow shipped around the myriad differences between the "true Word of God" and the "counterfeits" that were out there masquerading as God's Word. As wrong as it was to think that way, it was our "fellowship". And even though we were wrong to have our egotistical attitudes about our new found Truth, we were mostly positive and mostly happy. I mean, God forbid that you shown any signs of negativity, for, you get confronted, reproved! "C'mon man! Where's your believing! renew your mind!" And so, I have found yet another TWI splinter group. But this group doesn't fellowship around the positives of their new religion. This group fellowships around the shared negatives that they once experienced when they were involved with The Way International some twenty and even as long ago as thirty years! Oh man, and do they have lots to talk about! Their shared experiences seem to buoy them up almost constantly! And, even though they have shared the same negatives for what seems to be years and years now, they just keep on bringing it up over and over and over. Some of them have been OUT of The Way for many more years than they were actually In The Way! And that to me is sad. Because, the years that they spent In have not been allowed to slip away into the past. It's almost like they are, because of the daily "renewed pictures in their minds" still in the situations they were once in so very long ago. Those negative situations must be as fresh to them today as they were the day it happened-twenty five years ago. But, this is a nation where Liberty still rings, and we all have the right to choose. But as for me, I am beginning to wonder: Just how healthy it is to hang around with this particular splinter group? Obviously, I am talking about the Grease Spot Cafe, and obviously there are those here who will resent this observation, and naturally, disagree with it. But maybe there are some of you "Newbies" here who ought to reconsider your involvement with this splinter group, for that's all it is, just another Way International splinter group.

I regret none of it. It is where Life led me, and I accept all of the good with all of the bad. Just like any other places I have been in Life and have learned from ther good and the bad. And to the one guy who said that the "law of believing ruined more lives"...Well, it didn't ruin my life at all! Whether it is a "law" or not certainly may be debatable, but the way it went into my head, the way I perceived it and became a person who learned to trust God did nothing but help me as it still does today! And I have been Out for a very long time. I don't go to church, and don't hang with any splinter group, except now, I guess I am hanging with this Way Ministry splinter group. Waysider, in remembrance of someone else's quotation, and how I thought it was worded a different way, you said; Oh come on Waysider, you may not like my opinions, and that is just fine. But gimme a break will ya? Are you going to snip out of context a portion of my remembered quotation of someone else's so that you can "prove" that I am being "contradictory"? The point of "whether I believe it or not" is to say that "God's Word is true whether or not we believe it". I may certainly be a big target around here because my beliefs are not in lockstep with the rest of youz guyz, but at least you can disagree honestly like Old Skool did. You people are funny.

Hey. I remember it this way, and I was around him alot. He said, basically, "God said it, that settles it. And whether I believe it or not, it doesn't change a thing!" That's the way I remember him saying it, and whether he said it that way or not, that's the way it is. If God says it one way, and if we don't "agree" with Him, well then, it's His Way or the highway! I mean, He is GOD, and we are NOT. God and His Word are Supreme, for certainly, our "incredible" wisdom (what a fuggin joke "our wisdom" is), is not supreme to His All Knowing Wisdom. Ya know, we just gotta BOW to the BIG GUY, ya know? I think that because He has the wisdom and power to create a whole "heavens and earth just for us", that He has more wisdom than us to run things down here...

Ya know, here's what I think. I think God got left out of it after awhile, and it became people "just working the Principals". I mean, I remember people (including myself-gag me!) saying "Just work the principals!" and God will help you and you will be all right. But for the most part, with me anyway, I always thought of it as God my Heavenly Father wanting to, and willing to help me out according to His Word. Yeah, God got lost in the whole thing (well, He always knew where He was), but he disappeared from us when IN because He just became a "principal for success" instead of who He is: our loving Heavenly Father who wants us to recognize Him as such and lean on Him because we love Him and are thankful to Him and for Him and all that He has done. I mean, for the most part, I think all of us who became involved did so because we had pure hearts and wanted to know and walk with Him. And then, human nature as it is, and historically has always done, got in the way and things became what they became. Surely we were led, but surely we followed, even though we had holy spirit within us. And, thanks Old Skool!

Old Skool, I'm down with that. Makes sense. It used to kill me when driving with some one, and the driver would yell at the red light; "God! Make that light turn green in the name a Jesus Christ!" And it would then stay red. Or, it might turn green simply because the timing was that it was to turn green. And then the driver would give me sage look like; "see the power I have"? But I'll tell you this, and I don't really offer much of an explanation, other than to tell you what happened. One time when I was a wow, I prayed for a car. Then, for a week straight, I confessed that God was going to give me a car. I became downright obnoxious about it to my wow bros and sis's. I was doing that "confession of belief yields receipt of confession" thing I guess. But at the end of the week, I met a guy, invited him to twig, and when he learned that my car was busted down during "coffee and cookies time", right then and there he gave me the keys to a car. The next day he gave me the title and we drove it home but not after a nice ride in the country! It was way cool! My only explanation was that it had to be God. I prayed and expected, talked about it as if it was a foregone deal, and viola! I think that God must have done a lot of "winking" at us in our young exuberance, even though we may have been following certain "cliche' like doctrines. But, in that case, I was expecting a car, and bada bing! It came. Old Skool, you also said; And I am thinking; "yes, we do not "appropriate God into acting". I mean, that is egotistical to think that we "control God" ...., it's blasphemy! And yet, since believing, faith, trust (I believe they are all about the same thing), are a requirement, I guess to say that we "appropriate" certain things to come to pass isn't to far fetched of a thing for people to think when we read of the examples admonitions to "believe and not fear". Maybe it was the choice of words in it all. Fortunately for me, I have simply always looked at it as trust and believe and God will bring it to pass. "Trust in the lord with all my heart and lean not to my understand, and He will bring it to pass"-paraphrase of course. And, this is just discussion, not debate. I just wanted to talk about it, that's all. Oh, here's one that used to kill me. I mean, I did it up until a point when I decided that it was ridiculous. We used to pray; "God, I just thank you for this job that you are going to get me", or "I just thank you ahead of time" for such and such. And then after I heard somebody say what I'm about to say, I thought; "Yeah, you are right"! When we sit at the dinner table and ask someone to "pass the salt", we don't say,; "Hey Bob, thank you passing me the salt", we simply say; "Would you please pass the salt"? And so, why would we do that to God Almighty? A bit arrogant I would think. But, to be fair, I think that the initial thinking behind it was for us to pray with an "attitude of expectation" instead of the old "begging prayer" where, "God, if I am worthy, PLEASE help me, if you might possibly find the time, etc etc. I think maybe it waqs a good idea gone bad, and people simply "cliche'd-ified"it.

Regardless of the "formula for success" or the "formula for defeat", the Word of God still stands. I for one (and maybe many of you too) did not like at all the many "formulas" for this and that. For instance: "Believing images of victory", The "Four D's Of Doulos Doins" (decision desire details and deliverance), etcetera. But, on this subject of "believing, the word of God still stands. And remember I didn't say I believed in the "believing equals receiving" formula as was taught us. But I do believe that in order to receive from God, we must first believe. Now, Old Skool said this: Now Old Skool, that is exactly right. God is the one who brings to pass His promises. But if the Bible is to be our standard concerning "God things"-and to some here I guess this wouldn't apply-then there are certain things within it that simply cannot be ignored. For instance the record of Jesus casting the spirit out of the boy who was possessed of an evil spirit in Mark 9:17 Mark 9:17-24 (King James Version) 17And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit; 18And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not. 19He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me. 20And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming. 21And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child. 22And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us. 23Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. 24And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief Now, this record always kind of cracked me up in a way. I mean, here is this terribly distraught Dad, with a son he no doubt loves dearly, hoping that for once, since he'd heard all of the good things about Jesus, that maybe his son could become normal and at peace and no longer tormented. He'd already had a failed experience with the disciples, yet no deliverance for his beloved son. He explains things to Jesus, and then brings the boy (young boy? Young man who was his son? Dunno) over to Jesus, and immediately the spirit tore into him. And there was his son wallowing on the ground, foaming at the mouth, no doubt making for a very disturbing scene, and what does Jesus do? Did he immediately bend down and calm the boy with a "touch"? Did he immediately tell the father to "dip his son in the Jordan seven times" or some such thing? No, he didn't. So while the kid was kickin' up the ground and chawin' all around, Jesus (I picture him saying it calmly), says to the father; "And so, how long has this been going on"? I mean, this is the part that sorta cracks me up! This terribly distraught Dad, wanting help and no doubt desperate, ends up having Jesus "start a conversation with him" while this spirit is ripping into his son's body violently and terribly. And after the man gave an emotional history of all this, incredibly, Jesus then says to him; "If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth". Whoa! C'mon Jesus! Where's da love?! Dis guyz kid is all over the ground, and you tell him that he has to "believe" first?! Then someone from the crowd yells; "Hey! Let's forget dis guy Jesus! Let's get dat kid to da hospital!" And then no doubt, some woman, a MOM yells; "How dare you Jesus! Here is this man and his son in a terrible plight, and you have the audacity to tell him to "just believe"! Shame on you you mindless cultist!" But no, Jesus, the healer of broken hearts first makes known the requirement for the boy's deliverance, and the Dad accepts this and responds with "Lord I believe". And the boy is delivered. And man, what joy they both must have experienced! Thank you Jesus for showing us the way! (no pun intended) And then there is the record of Peter walking on the water and how Jesus said to him as he began to sink. Here's the record from Matthew 14: 29And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus. 30But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me. 31And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt? And so again we see that it was the fear and lack of believing that caused the failure and began to send Peter to the bottom of Davy Jones's locker and that faith or believing is the only alternative for deliverance. Why then would Jesus say these things if they were not true? I mean, these things are in there, why throw them out because we had a bad experience with "formulas" when we were in The Way? Of course once again, this is all based on the premise that God is real, Jesus is real, and that the Bible is actually the Word of God. And I have noticed that many here do not believe that, so, that's fine, folks may believe what they will. But for those who have a belief in God according to the Bible like myself, I simply cannot dismiss the multitude of examples found in the Bible concerning the admonition to not fear, but rather to believe Now. The pre-packaged "formulas"? No, I never liked those. But the basic truth of "The fear of man bringeth a snare, but whoso putteth his trust in the Lord shall be safe" (Proverbs 29:25) is something I will always be thankful to have learned when I was in The Way. You may say that I "could have learned that in some other church", and to this I have to say that you are absolutely right. But I learned this while in The Way, and it was, and still is very good. I think that on this one, there is a crying Baby out on your lawn or in the snow where some of you threw out the bathwater. Go pick up the Baby and leave the rest behind.

Back when I had the class, I loved this part of it where Dr. Wierwille taught about how believing equals receiving. Well, I am not sure whether it actually "equals" receiving, but I simply loved the truth that when the promises of God that I learned in the Bible were coupled with my belief that the promises would come to pass, viola! It happened! And I also learned that if I "feared", then things not so good would happen. I remember a verse in Proverbs that says "The fear of man bringeth a snare, but whoever trusts in the Lords will be safe". All of that made total sense to me. So, even though not everything in The Way was right on with the Word, I certainly loved the good things that I was taught, and God must have have had a serious hand in it somewhere. Funny how God can work in most any situation it seems. Like when God was able to even work with that guy Baalim in the old testament, as crooked as he was. So, I don't know if it equals receiving, but believing is the way to go instead of reaping all of lifes' troubles! And that's good enough for me! So, the question is I guess, does any one here still believe this? I noticed that somone else here, down in the political threads doesn't seem to believe it anymore.

Geez! A lot (not all) of youz guyz are so friggin lame! I see the same daggone subjects, arguments, complaints, by The Same People that I saw here years ago! I think that many of you have spent "more years in TWI" on the Internet than you actually spent when actually involved in TWI! There really is Life outside of TWI. You really need to fuggedaboudit (as Tony Soprano would say) and and check out LIFE on the OUTSIDE. Life out here is GREAT! I go to a lovely church for instance, and what I learned in TWI that was good, I share with others. And what I learn anew, I process and either utilize or discard. What is so hard about simply taking the good that we learned and discarding te bad and simply getting on with life? If any of you are in my age group (mid fifties), we don't have that many years left! Move with the good, jettison the bad! And be happy. Happy is GOOD not happy is BAD. You may roast me for this, but this is all I have to say in this thread. I love you and want you to be happy and to move on. Bye.

Waysider said: Waysider, are you sure don't mean "bait and switch"? It seems to be to me that that is what you are saying, which seeems to be what happened to me. I went in seeing one thing that attracted me and as time went on it switched to something else. The bait was the love and the comerodery (sp?) and then it seemed to switch. So, I left, although I left behind a lot of loving friends which was sad but I didn't want to be around some of the power trips I saw going on either so I left.

Personally it was easy for me because I just thought it was so much bullcrap and nobody held a gun on me when I wakled away because it wasn't Gods will because the bible tells me so.