ClayJay

And yet, maybe not in the realm of taxes, but we do see disobedience to the pharisees who were backed by the government, and in Acts 12, we see Peter, who while in jail, was set free by an angel which was in direct opposition to Herod the king , who intended to kill Peter. So, in that case, it was like God's people saying to the Government; "Up your nose with a rubber hose!" But of course, it was God who did the deed for Peter. But it was obvious that God was in opposition to that government, and the believers certainly took him up on His efforts...

Thanks Broken Arrow. And, I wish you all Godspeed in your recovery. But one thing I will say. I remember the old "If you walk away from this ministry you will die!" line of thinking. I never told anyone that, but I remember it being something from the mouth of Martindale and I always had a hard time with it. And, the day we got the boot (which I knew was coming because of my "insubordination"), I knew that that threat of death if I walked away was pure and unadulterated bull..... When I put the salt to my lips, I made a commitment to God and "It Is Written", not to any daggone ministry. I may not have carried out my commitment all the time but I tried. But when it was evident that "It Is Written" was far and away from the standard of The Way at that time and forever afterward, I (we-my wife and I) had no fear because of our new "non-involvement/walked away" status. We really did become involved at first because we wanted to help people with what we believed was God's Word. But the "Tractor Beam" was drawing us in though, and when we saw it, we made up our minds that it was time to go. My over all point is, please please please you all, who were indoctrinated with the "if you walk away you will die" mentality, DO NOT EVEN GIVE IT A SECOND THOUGHT! You are fine! You are now in the bright sunlight! God's promises are in fact yeah and amen! And He will love you and protect you all the days of your life, so fear not and cast that evil doctrine into the sewage ditch, and.....Fuggedaboudit! Love you all!

Ya gotta remember that this was back in 1985, a good while before the era of the teachings on not being in debt. But yes, the card was used that day for, I guess, my entertainment. I'm not sure what you mean by that but I think you may mean that "I am down" meaning "I am ready for", or "am willing to" be involved with the struggle to "get my life right". Well, just so ya know, there is no struggle for me now. It's all water under the bridge. I was kicked out of The Way 23 years ago. I had been involved with The Way for only 15 years or so. I was a low level leader, and when I began to see what a trap we were in, my wife and I purposely and honestly disagreed with LCM when he demanded our loyalty and were promptly given the boot. Thankfully, we missed the "raging years" that I have read about here when TWI II came along. I missed the "spiritual probation" years and all of the terrible things that I read about. There was a "dark under belly" in The Way when I was in, but I didn't see much of it, and only learned about much of it here at the GSC. Whoever started this thread asked if there were anyone here who had ever hurt anyone while they were a leader and did they ever apologize. And so, I gave you all an account. But really I am good, and my Family (wife and kids) are all fine. I have taken the good that I learned in The Way and have discarded the bad. I certainly wish you all well in your recovery. Personally, I have found that Jesus' admonishment to "forgive those who trespassed against us", is the healthy route to take, and has worked well for us. God bless you all.

Okay, so I mistakenly relied on "spell check", and wasn't attentive enough. But you know what I'm sayin. Anyway...

Are you serious? Come on Waysider, I know you hate me over at the politics forum, but learn the differential between my political views and my attitude towards The Way. I would think that we are on the same "page" over here on the "About The Way" forum. What I was saying here in this thread is that if The Way leaders told-and I can't remember which individual posted this that-: All I am saying is that if The Way instructed this Bereaved Person to " throw away memories of him and forbade her/him to speak of him because "sin" killed him/her", then if The Way were to stay "true to form" (which they will not and we all know it), then THEY (The Way), should also blow up and get rid of all memory of VPW because he died because "sin" killed him! But of course, they are hypocrites and would never "own up" to such fallacies. Geez dude, unveil your eyes and read what is written!

Callous? Moi?

Well, I guess we'd better burn down the VPWWOWA then. And cast the VPW statue bust into the inferno. Change Wierwille Road into Corn Row Road, or somethin...

You are welcome Newlife, and may you have a fast recovery. Just work through it all at your own time table. But don't wait on apologies in order to move on. They just may never come. I am owed a number of apologies myself, but I doubt they will ever come. God bless you...

Oh, and in hindsight, I should have done this when the pressure was on me to "get to my new assignment before Corps Week and the Rock": I should have told my new RC/LC this: "Look. I have inherited three "generations" of WOWs and WOW Vets's stuff here at this house. There are bills to pay, stuff to haul to the dump. I have my own stuff to pack up, and there is a believer here living with us who does not need to have all of this dumped on him. It would be wrong for me to leave all of this stuff in Bill's lap even though he thinks he can handle it and has offered to do so. So, I will get to my new Branch Coordinator job when I can, and if that's not good enough, then I don't want the job. If The Way wants to help out by sending people up here to help pack me up so I can be there as quickly as you want me there, then fine. But I will not dump on my friend and Brother." But, and I will not say that "I even thought this way" and then succumbed to the temptation of getting out of all of that work. It didn't even cross my mind, sadly to say. But after getting out of The Way and all of the sudden becoming like a "mole standing in the sunlight for the first time and blinking at the bright sunshine", I definitely became acutely aware that I had not been the man that I now know to have been in that situation. It kills me that I didn't even think to speak up on Bill's behalf. And if I had thought of it, would I have jeopardized my reputation amongst the mucky mucks? Dunno. I would now, but this is now, and that was then. But, I am glad I caught up with Bill and have apologized to him for that. For me, I just have to look at that .... as water under the bridge... No. But like I said, you may pile on if you like...

I apologized to a lot of people. One thing I felt terrible about was when I moved from one place where I had been a Twig Area Coordinator (4 twigs), to another state where I became a "regulation sized" (7 Twigs or more) Branch Coordinator with 10 Twigs. What I did that was very uncool, was this. One of our housemates, who was staying in the state we were leaving offered to pack up the rest of our "stuff" and make sure that the house we were vacating and turning back over to the Landlord so he could rent it again was clean and in good repair. He offered it in the name of "moving The Word" and "the Mystery In Motion", etc blah blah. And since it was "soooooo important" for me to to get to my new assignment, I took him up on his offer. As it turned out, it was way more than he should have offered to do. The house had been lived in by three different groups of Wayfers, and almost all of them had left "stuff" there "in storage" to be "picked up later", which never happened. And so, the guy, a wonderful good hearted Brother was left to do all this. Actually, another guy offered to do the same along with my room mate, but, he didn't come through, so, "Bill" we'll call him, had to do it all after I had flown away on a big old jet airliner... Finally, when the stuff came to me and my wife, he included a letter in it demanding that I pay him $200.00 for all the time he had put into doing all the work. For, not only did he have to haul alot of junk off (the stored stuff), send off my stuff (I left him $800.00 for shipping and told him to keep whatever change-there was no change it turned out), but he had to clean the house and also it turned out that there were some repairs needed too. How he got the stuff fixed was by way of one of the local believers who owned a construction company. When they learned of what I had dumped on him, they were angry, and rightfully so. And the word got out how Bill had been treated and they were all rightfully pi$$ed off. I believe that it was the contractor/believer who told him to confront me about me paying him money. When I received the letter, I called him and.....reamed him out for not keeping his word in that he had happily volunteered to help us out, but then afterward decided that he should have been paid to do it. So, he then meekly apologized to me. Down the road, and after The Way, I realized how wicked that whole scenario had been. We were led to believe that that kind of giving (like what Bill did) was a good thing for us to do for each other, especially when it had to do with "moving The Word". So I, as an up and coming leader thought it was a good thing for Bill to volunteer like that, and that it was good for me to allow Bill to give like that, because he would be blessed for his giving. But the thing was, Bill had his own life and concerns to deal with. He wasn't a big wage earner, and his Own Life had needs to be taken care of also. It wasn't right that he clean up my own mess with that house. But I was being pressured to get down to my new Branch assignment by a Reverend Region Coordinator, so it seemed to fit that Bill would help us "get out of Dodge" sooner rather than later. But it turned out that it had been a huge undertaking for this one guy. He lost hours at work, he didn't have a place to stay (until the local believers found out and put him up and took care of him), and it was one big royal pain in the a$$ for him. Meanwhile, as the new Branch coord in a certain midwest town, I was treated by my new RC/LC to lunch at a nice restaurant with his Way International credit card! That was weird! It was kind of like "Welcome to the upper levels, you'll be here in no time!" At least I paid my own way to get there to that state, but really, the whole thing stunk. And so, years down the road when seeing how wicked all of that was, I sought him out and apologized profusely and even offered to pay him for services rendered. But, he declined, but also forgave me, and we became simple believer friends once again. I also made amends with the local believers who helped him out and had come to think ill of me because what I had done. But I have seen this mentality still existing amongst splinter groups. And since it dawned on me how me we used each other in that way, I have always refused to be helped when Ex Way Reverend So and So would say; "Hey we'll get all the believers together to help move ya"! "No way now or ever" says this Ex Way Reverend So and So. And I don't hang with any splinter groups either. Too weird. And, I have always tried to be generous to offer my truck or services when some else needs that kind of help. I don't know if any here were a part of any place I was a leader, but, I apologize for having offended in any way. Now, if you all feel the need to "pile on me", go ahead. But I'll have you know that I told LCM in no uncertain terms to go and take a hike back in '88, and I was shunned and scorned, "marked and avoided" during the "raging years" (TWI II), and had the phone "hung up on me" a few times when I tried to contact friends who were "still in". Anyway, Glad I didn't fit in with the "in crowd", and took my leave. And I have apologized to as many as I can find whom I may have offended...

Hey! Sounds as good as an Alaskan moose steak! And I do agree with you Daggoo, on the over done thing...

Of course you may say as you wish about it. I just wondered how you plan to "stop the evil". If you plan to do it by talking about it, then fine! Have at it! But if you plan to stop them from having their beliefs, well then, that would be a different story and an encroachment on their Constitutional rights...

Awesome post Shell. When you said It reminded me of a Way rev Limb Leader who did us (my wife and I) much harm. And for years afterward, when the subject of what he did came up, I would reiterate the whole damned incident and get pi$$ed off all over again. Oh, I'd go into great detail in the recitation of how we had been manipulated and hurt and humiliated, proving all over again just how right on we had been and wrong he had been! And finally, my wife says; "Honey, that was ten years ago. You need to let it go. You just need to forgive him and drop it. It's over. And ya know what? Do you think that he even thinks about that incident at all? Probably not" she said. And it hit me. There I was, getting all worked up over the whole deal, and just like Ham's bear, he probably hasn't even given it a second thought since it happened so long ago! So why am I dwelling on it still when he doesn't give on whit about it?? And so, we prayed right then and there, and asked God to forgive him, and that maybe his eyes will be opened one day, and that he and his wife and children could live a blessed life. They too have been out of The Way for a long time now, and if he never apologizes for that incident, I really don't give a ratz a$$...

The evil has to stop? You mean that the evil doctrine that is propounded by The Way has to stop? But those people in The Way have freedom of will, and the right to believe what they want to believe here in America. How do you propose to stop it in this environment of religious liberty here in America?

Right on LZ*. And yes, I too am all about "accountability". But, I too need not worry nor dwell on those who have hurt me in the past. No time for it. I doubt my name has crossed through Rosalie's or Martindale's brain for the longest time! So, why should I have their images and their deeds still in my brain? I'd rather be thinkin' 'bout fishin! Or playin music! Or having fine times with my kids! Or sex! Or all kinds of wonderful things that actually deserve my attention...

Oh wait! Actually, there were some apologies that came forth after the Passing Of A Patriarch was read and that whole thing blew sky high. I think I recall Martindale him self in an apology letter apologizing to the Way Corps as a group. I think that during that period, apology letters were flying all around the country. Remember when a couple or even a few more guys were added to the Board of Trustees? Townshend, and Caballero were two, and I think during this time when Craig was laid so low by the content of the POAP, he made some apologies before he began his lashing out campaign. So, I think the answer to your question is "yes" in a way. They were meaningless apologies though, and for what they were apologizing for I can't remember. For being "carnally minded" or some such thing...

I don't want nor need apology from from the TWI guys. There is one ex Way rev who humiliated me publicly in a most dastardly way, yet I don't need an apology from him. I have forgiven him and it's water way long gone under the bridge. Now, one certain ex Way rev/Corps coordinator apologized to me after we'd both been kicked out of The Way, and, I accepted his apology and was very blessed by it. He used to ride my case unmercifully out at Gunnison because I was always fishing that beautiful river, and to him, fishing was a "leisurely thing", and therefore "wrong". But when he apologized to me for it, yeah, it was very nice. I told him apology accepted and that I forgave him for it. So, in answer to the original question, yeah, I suspect that there has been a lot of apologizing from individual Way leadership, but no doubt most of it came from people who ended up no longer with The Way. But an apology from the organization itself? I haven't heard of any, and so, don't hold your breathe waiting for one. And Socks, thanks for that. Nicely said. Peace! :)

Then you disobey Jesus.

My wife wasn't my wife at that time. I learned of it after the collapse of Way One. We were gone by then. And, when it happened to her, she really, at the time thought of it as an isolated incident, and didn't realize that it was an insidious sickness that Martindale was practicing. Had she known the extent of it, believe me, she would have really sounded off. That woman of mine is no piker whenb it comes to "gettin in faces"! Just ask all the teachers and principals our kids have had! Hah! Yeah, she's a toughy, but she just thought it was a one time weakness thing back in 1978. Martindale was only the WC Director back then, not the Prez. And yes, Jesus was in the process of procuring our salvation, but who are you to say just exactly whom he was forgiving when he said that? How do you know that the pharisees were not included in that statement? I think that even if the pharisees "knew what they were doing", they really did NOT know what they were really doing. Because, they were deceived by Satan. They actually believed that they were doing the right thing. I mean, come on: If people who deceive others actually KNOW that they are doing the bidding of the GOD OF THIS WORLD, do you think they would continue? I doubt it. I seriously doubt that at all... Anyway, have a great rest of the weekend. Peace out... :)

Martindale did apologize to my wife in a letter, and, he asked her to forgive him. BUT, he also said that he "didn't really live his life that way". Which of course was pretty lame to try and qualify his apology. But he did seem contrite, and she was never shunned because of it, or given "bad assignments" because she turned him down. In fact, he was always extra polite to her after that. They are both fellow Oklahomans, and she knew him when he was a "new guy". And when I married her, he was extra friendly to me because of their friendship. But, he was probably just trying to "cover his bases" by being nice and wanting her to think that he didn't do those things normally and that it was just a one time "near slip". But, on the subject of forgiveness, I forgive them all regardless of no apologies. Now, I myself have made some apologies to some whom I may have hurt as a Way leader. I never sexually abused anyone as a single Way leader, but, particularly on my interim year in North Dakota, I was a bit "gung ho" and obnoxious. I don't apologize for teaching Way doctrine though, because I don't think that it was all that "ebil" like many here who do...

Okay. So, if the offender is dead, and cannot apologize, then, forgiveness must not be given. VP, HW, EO, and DDW are all dead. Even if they wanted to request your forgiveness after an apology, they cannot do it, and according to your doctrine, you are not allowed to forgive and therefore you must go on through life in a state of "unforgiveness" (it's called holding a grudge in the common vernacular), and leave your self open to self destructive bitterness. Forgiveness is not just about the one being forgiven. Forgiveness is also about the healing of the one doing the forgiving. Jesus forgave his murderers and yet they still mocked him until the end. "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do." "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds". Hebrews Yes, I prefer to consider him, and follow after him who forgave those who mocked him beat him, spit in his face, tortured him physically, "made sport of him", pounded a crown of thorns on his head (into his head) and then nailed his bloodied near corpse to the cross and further mocked him. And he goes on to say; Forgive them Father for they know not what they do." Well, that's good enough for me. Why not for some of you? As Chatty Kathy used to say around here, "some of you here have spent more time revisiting The Way (and have it still swirling about in your head!) than the time you actually spent in The Way!" Look none of us have endured anything near what our Lord Jesus Christ endured. And he was INNOCENT! We, on the other hand are/were not innocent. We, who gleefully went about snorkeling in the cess pools of sin and iniquity without a trace of guilt for many of us were far from innocent. But Jesus was actually and entirely innocent and he forgave those who hurt hi, who wronged him. Therefore it behooves us even more to follow his example and forgive those who have trespassed against us. Shoot, LCM tried to seduce my wife when he was married and she single. She nailed him with "It Is Written", and he backed off. He's never apologized to her, but she has forgiven him. As have I. I would never trust him again, but I forgive him...

Here we go again...

Here Chockful. Check out this archived thread. Some of the hottest and most tempestuous of conversations happened in this 63 page brouhaha. This young son of a one time Way Staffer came to the GSCafe nearly had his head torn off for asking about forgiving those who had committed the travesties that evolved in The Way from the top leadership on down. I am in that thread as the one time "Jonny Lingo" (I've changed my name now), and, many others including a certain celebrity speak their mind there. The young guy, Nathan Friedly checked out after being treated rather shabbily, in my opinion. But there is lots there about forgiving, and not forgiving. Here. The thread is called "A Note On Forgiving" :

The book is called "The Hope Of Glory (In Search Of The Light)" by David Charles Craley I still have a copy. I just went to my bookshelf to read the title so I could give it to you correctly. I only read it once. I have thought about re-reading it, but I remember it as a really weird story. At the end of the book, after his "homo spirits" were cast out (in graphic detail), he went on to seriously idolize Dr. Wierwille in a fictitious and very strange way. I remember as a Corps guy seriously wondering about Craley and how he idolized VP, and "why was it that VPW allowed this type of ending to the book"? Granted it was Craley's book and he could say what he wanted to say. But Craley also regarded the MOG's opinion very highly, so, I guess that type of "idol fiction" had VP's blessing or Craley would have changed it...

That really is a cool link isn't it. And so, I didn't know they still made that coffee. I think I'll check and see if they sell it here in Juneau, Alaska and buy some. I mean, the "official coffee of the NY Yankees"? It may not be "grind yer own", but it must be pretty decent if it earned that motto. Oh, and the gay thing. My time in The Way and in The Way Corps was about the same time frame of Sunesis. And, I was under the impression that any and all gay activity was taboo. The Scriptures are/were clear to me that it's a definite "no no", and since "It Is Written" was supposed to be our motto, I figured that anyone caught at it would be out on their azz. But, now that I think of it, I remember two other incidents. One, a Corps bro went home for some family emergency, and while there got drunk and had a gay liason with an old friend. He actually fessed up to it when he came back to Emporia, and was told that he couldn't graduate, and that he would have to go through his entire final year all over again without incident. And that's what he did. And, he's married with children and is a fine fellow. So, I was happy to see the element of forgiveness. The other guy, a really good friend of mine turned out to be gay, and after his first year on the field after we graduated, went back to his old lifestyle and never was involved in The Way ever again. It was funny, because I never once thought of him as a one time gay guy. Yet, after I learned that he'd gone back to it, I saw then that there lots and lots of things that he'd said to me that were really quite provocative in a homosexual way. But, I never thought a thing of it. Once, when a bunch of us guys were staying in the "Waytels" (plywood shacks with bunks in the Way Woods), we were "panty raided" by the girls in the Waytel next to us. Yeah, they took us by surprise and came in and threw toilet paper all around and screamed and then ran out giggling. We were like; "What???" Shoot, we began to say, they were all wearing their bathrobes or house coats or whatever the hell wimmin call those things. Not even a teddy or a nightie amongst 'em. "We'll get 'em back and give 'em a real show"! So, we planned to get them back the next night. So, here is what we did. We practiced the song "Oh we love you love you love you" (that birthdays song), and when we practiced it, we were all naked, in a line, with our arms over our shoulders, like the Rockettes with our willies wavin'. And as we sang, we kicked our legs like the Rockettes, all though obviously not as high as the Rockettes, but in time with the song. We even did pelvic thrusts in between the verses. You know; "And we'll sing it once again-ugh ugh!" It really was pretty funny. And there was this guy, my pal, in there naked with the rest of us buff young studs, and, little did I know how much he may have been enjoying himself! I mean, if when I was in The Corps, and since my sexual preference is definitely Women, I am sure I would have completely loved it if I found myself in a dance line, naked with a bunch of pretty naked women! He must have really loved that practice session that we had that hot summer night. And so, naked (about eight of us), we all trooped out the door, went to the girls's Waytel, and tried to go in their front door. But, it wouldn't open and they were yellin at us to "go away". Turns out they were ready for us and had barricaded the door with something, and if we forced it, we would have broken something and gotten into trouble. And so, we didn't get to do our little Performance. Too bad you missed it girls! But my friend didn't...