GarthP2000

What happens then when you get caught by surprise? Or are forced into something? Where is your supposed 'culpability' then? And thank you for the 'scorpion in disguise' back handed remark. ;)--> At least with me, when I insult you, ... you'll know it. Because I'm more up front about it. --> And yes, I catch your drift. And while it has valid points, there are still sizeable flaws. And I never read where Jesus Christ talked the same psychobabble. His holding people accountable was more, ... how do I say this, honest. As in he didn't hold people accountable when they weren't, on either/both sides of the situation. I even remember when he blamed the pharisees for "making them the twicefold child as yourselves", ie., their students. Yet look who he's pointing his finger at. ((smiles)) You speak of that term as tho' it was a lock solid clinical term. It is a term that has far more psycho-hype in it than you might realize. You might be surprised at what passes for a 'cult' more or less, and the ((cough)) 'standards' used to determine such. ... There are those who use that term in regards to Momentus, my friend. And with equally persuading arguments. ;)--> Sorry chief, but, as per the "looks good on paper, but in real life ..." example, there are significant areas/examples where Momentus just doesn't live up to 'the promises on the green card' so to speak, or in their practices, wind up hurting more people more than they realize, ... or have the 'self-responsibility' to admit.

Evan, Okay, that helps clear somethings up a bit. Then again, I notice that you put "Now, I'm talking Momentus at its idealized best." That reminds me of the adage about "it works great on paper, but in real life ...". Heh! Ain't that the truth. First off, your experience is your experience, and if you want to hold on to that experience as a positive one, no one can begrudge you of that. Basically I was coming more from a 'generic' angle endeavoring to deal with the overall facts that effect everybody. It's kinda like that with TWI, where some of us have gotten good out of it, whereas others have gotten ziltch. But (as you well know) there are overriding facts about TWI, Wierwille and Co. that transcend our own personal experiences. Same with Momentus. And some of the accounts from the supposedly 'disgruntled' participants go beyond, I think, the 'YMMV, this show's not for everyone' kind of description. And of course, I've read of some of the passing of the buck that was disguised as the 'take responsibility for yourself' facade by at least some of the instructors. Maybe not a change of heart, but then again (if applicable) jail time would go a long way. Failing that, a total thrashing of their once high standing and reputation tends to help assuage the pain I imagine.

Nice try HCW, but there is one serious flaw with your analogy. And it is largely based on your scorpion-can't-help-himself-due-to-his-'nature' logic, as illustrated here: ((Ahem)) Human beings ain't scorpions. ..... They can help themselves. They are responsible for what they do. Not what others do. What they do. Momentus 'logic', based on what I've heard from people who have actually taken the course, takes that responsibility of what you do, and includes more or less what other people do to you, mainly illustrated by the examples that you give yourself. Ie., this psychotic beauty, "you wouldn't have been raped if you didn't go into the motorcoach with him". Uhh excuse me, chief, but I seriously doubt that that was the purpose for which the girl went into the coach with Wierwille (unless she knew what she was doing, and she was a totally willing participant. In which case she was responsible for her actions.) But the good majority of them I daresay didn't expect that kind of behavior and trusted Wierwille to act as a minister should have. So the "if you haven't gone into the motorcoach ... blahblahblah" ((cough)) 'reasoning' is nothing but flatulant hot air. ... Try that one on for self-discovery. And this is coming from a guy who has serious doubts about the 'mind control excuse' that some folks use to try to show why they couldn't leave the 'cults'. And I have made myself clear in what I thought of said 'theories'. :P--> But there is a significant difference between that, and the deception and inhibition that has actually gone on in TWI and other abusive relationships. I seriously doubt that the key to becoming a 'victor instead of a victim' is to go thru a 'self-discovery' about how you somehow culpable in what has happened to you. Taking responsibility (and not culpability) for what you do in response that is independent of what has happened to you and learning from it, yes. But no more than that. And sure as hell not this "You are culpable as well in what has happened to you" song-and-dance.

Evan, Then maybe you can set a particular point straight then. A point being taught in general in that class--oops! I meant 'training'. The point that is supposedly taught that you are supposedly responsible for not only what you do, but also for what happens to you. Ie., if you are attacked, you are (supposedly) a (whiney) victim if you blame the attacker for attacking you, rather than or in addition to endeavoring to grow and learn from the attack. I'd like your response based on what you were taught and have learned in that training please. Rascal, from what I see, you have nothing to apologize for. A good healthy critical and skeptical approach is definitely called for regarding topics like this, ... and you didn't 'make' anybody post anything. ;)-->

... and one pill doesn't do anything at all. (for all you Jefferson Airplane fanatics out there)

Hey! You started the whole thing! :D-->

Uhhh no. The 'hold harmless agreements' were there to 'cover their a$$' in case anything that *they* happened to have taught/done that harms the participants, and thus were able to escape legal responsibility. ... Escape legal responsibility. --> Hhmmmm, now how exactly is this compatible with "getting the person to take responsibility for their own decision in the matter?" Seems to me that that approach has the participant to not only take responsibility for their own actions (which is reasonable), but that of the trainers as well (which is not). Explain this discrepency please.

EEEEWWWwwwwww! .... :P-->

Oldies, Register under the name 'AntiTrinitarian' and see what happens. :D-->

NOW yer thinkin' Raffie. :D--> Sure beats those portables and the Honey Wagon, ehh? :P-->

Howard, You might then want to talk to those who have taken the 'training' AND have (had the tenacity to) give out the specific details about what actually went on in it. I say 'had the tenacity to' because the Momentus trainers require you to not tell anyone what went on in those sessions; not anything that was taught, or what activities went on, regardless of whether or not anything abusive happened. (See what was said before about the aforementioned 'Hold Harmless' agreement they all had to sign, which *is* a tad unusual for a supposed 'Christian character' course such as it advertises itself, wouldn't you agree? Besides, how many school athletic organizations require that same kind of ((cough)) 'legal protection', hmmm?) I have found some of their accounts rather hair-raising myself. As in, in the , 'holy ....' range. But hey, that's me. Your 'how strong is your stomach' mileage may vary.

6. Pizza with pineapple on it. :D-->

Ham, I can give him my book "1001 Uses for a Dead Cat" for some ideas. Idea# 356: Use it as a footstool. :D-->

... like you really need that kind of headache. :D-->

Cynic, So that WAS you who called in. :)--> Good to hear ya, dude.

I did. And mainly because Schoenheit was on it, and for whatever you may think of his doctrine, he does present his case well. And he did on that show, as well as Pastor Gene Cook. It was surprisingly civil, even cordial. John presented his case on why God wasn't in total control, why Jesus Christ wasn't God and to be worshipped as God, and Gene was asking questions as to why, and presented his scriptures supporting his views. Overall, a pretty good show. And I gotta hand it to Gene. He wasn't so anal about the Trinity to where he would have leveled childish ad hominum attacks against 'Socinian heretics' like other individuals who shall go unnamed. (See my first post here) ;)-->

Oh yeah!! Please do! Better yet, have me on the show too as the co-host: "On the orthodox right, Cynic. On the heretical left, GarthP2000. ... Welcome to Misfire!" ... Well? Whaddaya think? :D-->

Cat wants his milk ..... NOW!

Update to CNN (Confederate News Network ;)-->) news release by Ron. "Garth, upon hearing of this most unusual development, ... passes out. And then plans on new polemic arguments with Ron as previously mentioned." :D-->

((shaking my head)) Amazing how insignificant conflicts between doctrines like Trinitarianism/Unitarianism have grasped so many otherwise thinking people by the throat as it were (and how many innocent people have been murdered because of these conflicts), and for no good reason. Like our very lives depended upon this determination. ... Which they don't. I really think that the republic will survive in any event. You know, there are worse crimes that one can do besides disagree with and disent from orthodoxy. ... Ohh like, getting a parking ticket, for one example.

((sigh)) People like that should be forbidden to ever have or take care of children, even if it means spaying/neutering them to enforce this.

I second Tom Strange's nomination. Let Smikeol be TWI's next Prez. Hear! Hear! What a great way to sink the organization, and sink it fast. :D-->

"Take this thread to Cuba!" :D-->

Psalmie, Looks like they are going to have to get a job first while toughing it out with those who they are staying with right now, as apartments are usually strict with who they allow in; make sure the tenent has a job, that sort of thing. As getting a 'bad tenent' out is more difficult than keeping one from getting in. Wish I could give you more info. :(--> Hope they get a good break soon.

When dealing with the nature of hurricanes, can weather forecasters be any more sure? I mean, look at what they initially thought Katrina was going to do.