GarthP2000

Sounds to me like 'Butz' is appropriately named. <_<

Actually, I feel like I'm debating with a wall. ((sigh)) so true, so true ..... Updated information, from the Wiki link thazt Goey provided:

Zix, Did ya see my line beneath that phrase I used? "Think about it" is what it said. And I actually thought that you, with your grasp on logical thinking skills, wouldn't need to have me explain it to you. Apparently I was wrong ((sigh)) :unsure: Atheism is to religion like baldness is to hair color. Ie., because there is no hair, there IS no 'hair color' to speak of. Because there is no god in atheism, saying it is a religion is the real non sequitur here. Ie., they have no god(s) to believe in. And with the exception of the out-and-out strong atheistic claim of "There is no god" (which not all atheists share btw; as a matter of fact, only a minority of atheists go that far in their unbelief, something that arguably requires a kind of faith, since a god cannot be proven nor disproven), atheism itself is simply the non-belief in a god. A non-belief in/of something (in this case, God) requires no proof, as the person is simply saying that they do not accept the claim made. The believer is the one making the claim. The claim (in this case: a God) that is extraordinary in its nature. The non-believer asks for proof of said being that is accordingly extra-ordinary; proof enough to accept as fact. When told by the believer that all they have is scriptures, and that the belief is (largely at least) based upon faith, and the unbeliever says "I do not accept your premise of god" it is not the same thing as accepting something extra-ordinary because of/based on faith. The basis for deciding 'yes' (believer) or 'no' (unbeliever) to the belief in God is based on two different things. Why, the bible even covers this distinction. The skeptic says that it is the believer that makes the claim of something to believe in, and that based upon faith. Therefore the burden of proof/requirement to believe is upon them, NOT the atheist. Ergo the flawed comparison equivocating the atheist and the believer. No misdirection or deflection here guy. Must be that mirror you're looking at. <_< Don't take this so personally, guy. If you have your faith, and it works for you, nothing I can say can destroy it. ... This is why I never could grasp the mentality of the 'Defender of the Faith' variety. Perhaps if they can realize this little focused on fact, they'd quit getting their holy underwear in a wad when those of us *evil ones* dare to speak about our unbelief. Anywho, I don't want to derail this thread anymore than it has already. Do what you will with this response.

WTF, When I mentioned my agreement with "that it does not happen again", I was referring exclusively to the holocaust event itself, not to any perceived interpretation of the Jews being more worthy of consideration than anyone else. As a matter of fact, I do believe that the holocaust (extermination) of Jews and others because of religion is included in the purpose of the Weisenthal Center, and like anti-holocaust groups. Outside of the Neo-nazi groups rants and fits, I have never heard an inkling that the Jews *only* want for their group to be protected and no consideration to be shown to others extermination. They are against any kind of holocaust, be it against Jews or against any other ethnic group or people. I think that they are specifically focusing on the Holocaust in Germany because it provides a textbook example of what that kind of inhuman activity is all about. The holocaust under Stalin and Mao are likewise spoken against, and yes, even by the Weisenthal Center and other anti-holocaust activists. You mention that there are no memorials commemorating the victims under Stalin, Mao, and like Communist dictators. ... And you blame that upon the Jews/anti-holocaust activists? What's preventing you or other revisionis---err I mean anti-Communist holocaust activists from setting one up? Why hasn't any of the conservative groups that you do agree with, who do have a lot of money and resources set that kind of memorial up? Why not direct this question towards them, hmmmm? If this 'awakening' you mention is of Americans embracing the revisionist history in dismissing the full reality of the Holocaust, ... to put it mildly in terms you can relate to, "God help us all!" So spare us! This is clearly the kind of garbage that Penn & Teller would undoubtedly label "Bullsh it!"

Evan, For your information Evan, no, whether or not Jesus is God really doesn't bother me (as it is moot as far as I'm concerned), and yes, it really doesn't matter. These points do bother a lot more traditional, orthodox believers than many of us 'heretics'; one orthodox individual here on this board whom you know (and with whom I have various scrapes with ) is but one classic example of such. Maybe reminders of that uncomfortable fact is what is bothering you, perchance? :unsure: ... But what do I know. I do see Mr. Strange's point tho', altho' there have been those who were in TWI (like ex-JWs, atheists, etc.) who didn't take the trinitarian argument seriously either before they got involved.

Zix, I only have one response to the following that you posted: And that is this: Atheism is a religion like baldness is a hair color. Think about it.

Wow! ... All this stuff? ... Just for you?? Instead of feeling cursed, it oughtta make you feel *special*.

Tom, The unitarian POV (that Jesus is not God, and that the trinity isn't true) has been held to by various groups long before VeePee was a gleam in his daddy's eye. Just thought I'd let you know.

Oldies, There is a HUGE difference between what Molly Ivans brought up about the criticism of Isreal (which IS reasonable and about which there are those who endeavor to use the 'anti-semetic' arguments against it in a manipulative manner), and the knee-jerk, "the Jews are trying to take over the world" revisionist clap-trap about/against the telling about the Holocaust. Those knee jerks have been clamoring against that since day one. And they were led by and were supporters of the Nazis, the KKK, White Supremacy groups, and other related groups who have always whined and moaned about how the whites were so oppressed and/or why whites were placed by God Himself at the top of the racial food chain. Just getting their side 'out on the table' for discussion? I don't think so! If they had their way, those ovens and gas chambers would be turned back on. At the very least, the Jews would be "put back in their place for what they did to Christ" yadayada. I have actually dealt with people who believe this about Jews. Also keep in mind, that the Jews have been persecuted--yes, I said persecuted--for about 2,000 years since Christ died (they of course, being blamed, as a people, for his death), and they even have been persecuted and conquered for many hundreds of years before that. So I don't buy the clap-trap about how the Jews have always been controlling the discussion about the Holocaust and other related topics of what they have been through. Hell, for much of the 2,000+ years that the Jews have been persecuted, *they* were the ones who were threatened into silence about what was happening to them. So even with the individuals you mention Oldies, the opposing number of witnesses, as well as the records and other evidence *overwhelmingly* blows their side away! Totally!

Perhaps it was a combination of things, one of which was going by the last name, and how 'Jewish' it sounded. Another was by temple membership I think. Jewish family trees. A whole assortment of different methods. Keep in mind that sometimes folks were nailed for being Jewish, when they would simply be, just Polish for example. Not that the Nazis would go "Ooops! So sorry! We were wrong for calling you Jewish and sending you to Auschwitz. We'll restore everything to you we took away." Right! <_<

Dorfus Dippinsniffer here. Sounds like a Hobbit name of sorts.

Oldies, My retorts to CK and the like Nazi apologists is born out of frustration to the dishonest and selectful/distorted information that CK and the like pawn off as 'honest, intelligent debate'. Info that endeavor to justify Adolf Hitler's malvolence towards Jewish individuals, as well as his insane arguments against them. An example of said info is the one you provide: ... which proves ... what? That the Simon Wiesenthal Center gets millions in assistance from not only private citizens, but also from government grants? ... And? How many other think tanks, charity foundations, and other organizations get like amount/percentage of funding? And he/you provide that as evidence of this supposed "Jewish-Zionist Corn-spiracy"?And here's another flawed jewel that further strengthens my argument/attitude. And yet how many times have many, many revisionists deny that the Holocaust actually took place? He quotes various Jewish 'scholars' and like 'authorities' as tho' their testimony totally dismantles the Holocaust story. They don't. And whatever of their evidence/documentation that might, might mind you, put into question some specific detail that the Holocaust supporters convey, that is FAR more than offset by the sheer rank & stupid tirades about "Jewish control of the world banks", "Jewish-Zionist control of Hollywood", "Jews are trying to subjugate us all under Communism", etc., etc., &$*# like that. (Remember what I said about insane arguments against Jews?) And as far as using the Holocaust for nothing more than a tool to 'control the world' so to speak, that is nothing more than propaganda born by ranting Neo-Nazis and whatever Jewish in-duh-viduals that happen to fall for their reverse guilt trip. Ie., there IS no law nor rule that call for the total non-criticism of jewish people or individuals (except only in the minds of those who whine and moan about Jewish control of our country). Hell, how many people, both Jew and non, have criticized the Isreali government for many trespasses (both real and imagined), and have not been dragged into court for some hate crime charge? PLENTY! Including yours truly. So Oldies, maybe you should re-direct your 'concern' over civilized, intelligent discussion towards those who have such a rabid distaste and hatred for the Jews, ... even if it does agree with what your 'Father in the Word' says about Jews. Ie., in short, Wierwille was dead wrong. Period! Like I (and so many other people) said before, all this push for the focus on the Holocaust is so that it never happens again! Templelady, Goey, Just a tidbit of information here. The term Jewish/Judaism can be used in a duel fashion. It can be used either in reference to the religion of Judaism, or it can be used in reference to the ethnic group that does have some form of genetic linkage throughout. Sometimes the mesh becomes difficult to discern between, but its there. And heck, we're all homo sapiens, that is human beings, any way. ... That's all we really need to realize, isn't it? Which helps make Neo-nazi & revisionist arguments null and void. :B)

You keep on and on about this "Jewish-Zionist Agenda" (with almost as much vitriol as when Ann Coulter talks about Hillary Clinton, complete with spittle flying out of her mouth; which reminds me. How often must you clean your screen every time you type this crap anyways?) So tell us, (in between screen wipes, that is) what is this ... "Jewish-Zionist Agenda", and the details thereof, that we all need to be aware of? ((hands WTF another bottle of Windex and a roll of paper towel for his monitor))

This must be Sign Number 11. <_< (Moderator, I believe I put up another post late last night addressing Johniam's responses here, and it seems to be missing. I'd like to know why please.)

Dave, Now just stop and think a minute, CK and his merry goosensteppers notwithstanding. ... You mean to tell me that those same Jewish-Americans do NOT pay taxes? The same taxes that part is used for the providing of foreign aid, part of which does go to Isreal? ... Uhmmm, we provide foreign aid to Saudi Arabia too, ... paid for with those very same tax dollars, ... part of which come from those very same Jewish-Americans. ... Am I right on this, or not? :unsure: We now return to the CK, and His Merry Goosensteppers Comedy Hour.

... never mind. This is like trying to reason with the psychotically insane. Here's what CK and his fellow VPW defenders come off looking like more and more: while 'Springtime For Hitler and Germany' plays softly in the background ..... ((shakes my head))

Oohhhhh I see, .... *ONLY* 1 1/2 to 2 million people. ... Ohhhh, is THAT all. (((whew))) You're right Mark. They are mad. ... Irrevocably, over-the-top, call-the-men-in-their-white-coats-to-come-and-take-them-away-ha-ha, mad! :wacko:

An American Indian went into a convenient store to buy a pack of toilet paper. He had a choice of Name Brand A, which was $5.00 a pack, Name Brand B, which was $4.00 a pack, and the No Name Brand, the cheapest of all at $2.00 a pack. So the Indian picks up the No Name Brand, pays for it, and leaves. He comes back a few days later with the No Name pack to return it, and says, "Me have name for No Name Pack. Me call it John Wayne toilet paper." The clerk curiously asks why he called it that. The Indian replied: "Me call it John Wayne toilet paper, 'cause John Wayne is rough, hard, and take no sh it off of Indian!" . . . ((crickets chirping))

I find it rather interesting that you want us to first read your article and deal with the points that it brings up, and yet you summerily dismiss, out of hand, the points (and links) that we bring up supporting that the Holocaust actually occured, not the least of which is the reasoning why the Holocaust is brought up time and again: so something like that never happens again! Thus the so-called 'flood' of specials, articles, and so on. (Which should answer that question that you claim hasn't been answered yet. Ehh, its been answered alright. You just don't want to deal with it.) You don't want to deal with said specials, articles, and so on? Fine. Don't read/see them. Don't want to deal with a 'day of remembrance'? Fine. Don't go. Nobody's making you, and your rights have not been violated one iota. Hell, how many times have non-believers in the Christian religion have to put up with Christmas (the religious Jesus Christ based variaty) over and over again, year after year, ... and yet I know that you have no problem with not only society continuing it, but folks like you even want government supported Christmas, with publically funded displays and all. If the Holocaust (which doesn't even deal with religious specific incidents) even gets a quarter of that kind of public attention, you have a hissy fit and act as tho' "The Jews are taking over! The Jews are taking over!" :huh: Tell me something guy. Does your loyalty to The Word of God as taught by VPW require you to take seriously this Nazi flavored *crap*? Is that what the One True God expects of you? Tell me true, ..... if you've got the courage that is. <_<

Cool, Hehehehehe! :) Good one. And to think that I really used to believe this stuff. <_< Oh well, I better shut up before _I_ really offend someone.

Tom, Because WTF (errr--H :D) would probably 'reason' that the Discovery and History Channels are run by Jews. <_<

I can understand why its called 'pseudo-science' that the 'nannies' often use against overweight folks, as there are so many factors to take into consideration as to what causes weight and all. But the 'pseudo-science' as regards smoking and its effects isn't pseudo-science at all. Smoking does cause things like lung cancer and bronchial related diseases, and 2nd hand smoke does have a significant effect on the health on others. Now to what extent it is is debateable, but that smoke and cigarettes are detrimental to one's health has been proven time and again for well over 40 years now. And frankly, I'm all for a good number of the regulations that limit the public areas used for smoking. Methinks that one good reason why some conservatives balk at this is because of the effects on the tobacco industry in conservative states like Jesse Helm's North Carolina, and the reduction in the industry's profits, thus the identification of the anti-smoking movement as a 'liberal' one. But, that's IMHO, ... your mileage may vary.

WTF(err-- H), Interesting point here is that all the claims that the claim for the 6 million was never based on any real evidence is itself lacking in real evidence. Ie., No proveable statistics, no independent investigations invalidating the 6 million figure, etc., ... whereas evidence *for* the extermination (both the plan and actions taken to achieve such) grew to such an indisputable level, all of which starting with Hitler's and his henchmen's hatred of the Jews, and their plans to wipe them out. And whatever evidence/information that does seem to support the revisionist 'the holocaust didn't happen' mentality is so spradic and especially selective, it isn't even funny. Almost as funny (that is, insanely ridiculous) as the claims of the Jews endeavoring to rule the world, control the money and the international banks, eat little children, being guilty in wholesale fashion for Jesus death, and other like arguments that the neo-nazis take as gospel, thus continuing to trash whatever shreds of integrity that they might have had before. All this, coupled with your childish loyalty to a domineering, abusive, research-challenged, and insecure kraut, ..... so you can understand why I ask that you please don't expect me or anyone else here _with a brain_ to take their (or your) rebuttals with any form of serious consideration. ... At all!

Belle, I don't dispute (nor intend to forget) that other races/peoples were persecuted beyond belief by Hitler and his mad henchmen, not at all. The Jews, however, did have a 'special place' in Hitler's pantheon of hated/inferior people. They have been hated by this man ever since at least the end of World War I, well before his race based Nazi ideology came into form. He largely blamed them for the downfall of Germany in 1918. He blamed them for endeavoring to take control of the German economy. He blamed them for running the world's banks and money houses. He blamed them for the depression. He accused many of them for being Communists. (That link that Oldies provided, ever notice as you peruse it's contents that their rantings are eerily similar to the points I just made? They are but the continuation of that insanity) His favorite composer was Richard Wagner, a well known anti-Semite. A lot of Hitler's role models hated Jews, an attitude itself which was propagated throughout the centuries. He just magnified to an unbelievable extent and carried it out in an unspeakable manner. It is this example of inhumanity that has motivated many European countries to pass the anti-revisionist laws that a few here have the gaul to accuse of being against liberty and free expression. Some of their punishments might be over the top, but it is unmistakeable that the motivation of said laws is that nothing like Hitler and the Nazis could *ever* take root again. The Jews as a people were nearly wiped out because of that. And its sad that some VPW defenders here place his reputation as being far more important than an historical fact that happens to go agaisnt VPW's German loving opinion. Thank God for VPW?? ..... Doesn't say much for your god if that's the case!

It was 6 million Jews. Altho his extermination programs were used against various groups of people, Adolph focused his rabid hatred against Jews, whom he thought were the main cause of all the problems of Germany and the world. Face it, the man's brain was toast. ... And so was Wierwille's for giving Hitler any kind of credibility, even if he was German.