GarthP2000

I think another part of what squelched any creativity in TWI was the near obsessive behavior of 'spiritualizing' things; paintings, music, etc. Ie., trying to determine whether or not some music was coming from some 'seed boy' in the music world, or which colors were more 'spiritual' or more 'godly' to use than others. It got to be almost as funny (read: stupid) as our practice of putting a spiritual meaning on the number of items and stuff. Overall, as a result, I don't think many of us could figure spirituality out of a paper bag, ... Wierwille included.

Allow me to do a little mea culpa of my own then, Dave. To you, MarkO, and to Joe. Humor, misplaced, ... and there was no insult meant by it, I assure you. And Mark was right. It is a classy move. :)

Say two Hail Marys, three Our Fathers, ... and leave a $20 in the plate by the door. (wondering if I can't pass as a priest. ;) )

Twinky, I think you meant the TWItanic, didn't you? ;)

Here's showing that you don't have to be a white native born American to dislike non-English speaking immigrants. ;)

Ya gotta admit Mstar, that the sections in the Bible that deal with and openly portray violence and such amount to more than just a few quotes. And the 'sexual content'? Well, ever read Song of Solomon lately? ... If they ever make a movie out of that book, and that unabridged, the flick WILL get an 'R' rating. And the accounts of: 1) Lot screwing, and impregnating, his 2 daughters, shortly after they fled Sodom, 2) the decree from God for the Children of Isreal to take for themselves (by force, that is) the virgin women of the conquered Canaanite tribes who dwelt in the land that was to go to Isreal, 3) Lot's offering of his 2 daughters to the Sodomites (to screw) in place of the 2 guests, as well as a similar incident that happened in the land of Dan during the Judges period, 4) One of the patriarchs (either Isaac or Jacob?) who slept with a harlot, only to find out that she was his (daughter or daughter-in-law? The account is in Genesis. Of that I'm sure.), and a whole slew of others (way too numerous to amount to "just a few quotes") which would be quite eyebrow raising, to say the least, to those today, who regard themselves as 'moral Christians', ... ... who then go into some serious denial about such behavior being depicted as somehow normal in the Holy Writ. <_<

And _whatever_ you do for good ol' mum, do NOT do like this guy does: :o

Uhh Bagpipes, Did anyone mention YOUR name in the previous posts on this thread? Did someone accuse YOU of doing something untoward? Or is that YOUR guilty conscience bubbling to the surface, ..... hmmm?

And its back to this week's saga of ... "As The Stomach Turns ....."

By and large, excellent point Rhino! And excellent questions. :B)

Sure, a lot of us understand the concept of 'inquisition' (ie., the church inquiring as to what one believes, whether remaining true to orthodoxy or to turning heretical). Problem is, Mark, is that it never really remained at 'just inquiring', particularly when you have an organization, integrated with the enforcement power of the state, to make sure that everybody 'stays on the straight and narrow path' of the church's authority. And, as you have correctly pointed out, this isn't just limited to the Catholic Church, but extends to (at least) the Protestants as well. One point has been brought up earlier, humorously illustrated by that Monty Python skit, is that no one 'expects the inquisition'. Which means that it could come from anywhere, and from anyone. Particularly if no one is looking to actively prevent it. Frankly, I don't see why it shouldn't be up to the individual to determine how orthodox they need to be, or which doctrine they want to follow. ..... ..... then there would be no institutional abuse to be afflicted upon anyone.

... and since back then, there was no separation between church and state, the church also had their applications of political necessities (read: total control) covered with the 'veneer of saintliness'.

The author who came up with that one most likely was never a target of said slander. <_<

MarkO, You and I have disagreed on a number of occasions on various topics, but I know for a fact that you are a man of integrity (and this has already been established in any event). (In my maybe not-so-humble and maybe not-so-religious opinion) Altho' you might not consider it 'the Christian thing to do', you gotta go full tilt on these jerks anyway. Evidently they have NO regard for you, your company, playing fair or honestly, or showing any humanity. Blood sucking scum like that must be shown no quarter as a result. Its a lot like you have said earlier about "arming our country to the teeth". That image also gives the clear impression that, if attacked, we WILL fight back and obliterate the invaders. The only way the invaders will be spared such destruction is if they withdraw *pronto*. Such as it is with the scum who is screwing with you and your company's livelyhood, integrity, and everything else, and are showing no professionalism or decency in doing so. *They* have freely decided to go that route. ... Then let them 'eat the bitter fruits' of that decision. Nothing for you to feel guilty about. ..... At all! Cheers to you.

Belle sez, in reference to how TWI operated and why it was coercive to the point that we _really_ didn't have a free-will choice. Hoo-kay, in that case, would you (and others who agree with you here) apply the same rendering to mainstream, orthodox churches who say that unless you "come to Jesus/be saved" then you will be cast out from His Presence/into the lake of fire come Judgement Day? ... I mean, talk about something that will 'cost you your soul'! :o Coercive, is it not? I mean, let's be consistant here. And yet, how much of that mainstream teaching allowed without so much as a 2nd thought among the same posters here? ... Wordwolf? JavaJane? Anyone else? :huh:

Ahhh nope. ... The fear of being wrong is eliminated? We *always* have a 'fear of being wrong'. Every one of us. That's why we always (hopefully) think about the choices we do have before us, and hope that we don't make the wrong choice when we decide. Free will is still there nonetheless. Wordwolf, There is a distinct difference between 'coersion' and 'manipulation'. What you are talking about is manipulation.

Deception, ie., being lied to, is one thing. Coersion or being forced to do something is something else. Just because someone *only* gives you two choices, that doesn't constitute coersion. Clear threats/intimidation being used in having you accept one of those two choices IS. That said, that doesn't take away that you were a victim (yeah, yeah, Oldies. I know you don't like that term. So what). You were a victim of being lied to and took advantage of, among other things. Now whether that can translate into legal restitution is something else entirely.

What about my hand that I hold up in front of the screen that has the middle finger extended? ;) But seriously, this part "You gotta go INTO their profile - like you wanna snoop about what their last post is ect." was all I needed to know. Thanks. :B)

I can't find it. I tried test blocking Tom Strange (J-U-S-T kidding Tom. ... Can I still have a sno-cone?), and I don't see that option.

Taking this Wierwille-wannabees 'candidness', and running it thru my Official Bulls**t Detector and Translator:

One fallacy/misunderstanding a lot of people get in applying the concept of 'free will' in this particular topic is thinking that, because it was free will that we used to participate in TWI (and in other 'mind controlling cults') that that somehow made it OUR fault that all the abusive crap happened to us. (Momentus was particularly effective in applying that manipulative guilt trip on people, especially when it came to holding them accountable for their abuses) That is not the case at ALL. Ie., YOU are responsible (notice I did not say necessarily 'to blame') for what YOU do. The OTHER person/people are responsible for what THEY do. ... Example: I am responsible for going to twigs/taking the classes/taking further involvment in TWI and how I responded to the lies and control, until I had it up to here and decided to leave. The leaders who lied/tried to control my life are responsible for THEIR actions and responses in that direction. A sidenote here for those who don't put much stock in freedom of will: As far as I am concerned, free will is one of the main things that is central to our humanity and characteristics of a civilized, free society.

The weather site Raf's using got nicer graphics this time. ... Hmmm, I wonder. ... Has there ever been a Hurricane Rafael? ((ducking))

O ..... L ...... D ....... OLD!! (insert wicked chortling here) P.S., Ohhh looky at all the AARP/senior age related ads at the bottom Jonny!!

Jonny ... is ... now ... OLD!!! But seriously, Happy Birthday dude.

Talk about two phrases that do NOT go together: Paris Hilton ... and ... Simple Life Nope! -_- No can do.