GarthP2000

Well, you can always do what Oral Roberts did. Tell people that if you don't raise the 8 mill by the end of the month, God's gonna take you home. :o ... and watch how F-A-S-T the mullah comes pouring in.

Perhaps he was trying to be polite. ... But you're right, as I imagine he'll get over it, and I'd be willing to bet that it won't even be as long as a few more years. ... I know I have. ;)

(Note to Oldies. ... Get some glasses dude.)

Larry, That is the only common sense statement you made in this thread. The rest is just theistic-justified, ad hominum bulls**t, done in such a desperate attempt to defend their deity by slamming the unbeliever, ... for no better reason than that he disbelieves. As a result, it illustrates, Yet Again, your total *lack* of said proof of your god. Thanks for illustrating to me Yet Again why I left your mentality behind.

While the definitions between 'agnostics' and 'atheists' and 'weak atheism' and 'strong atheism' might be like splitting of hairs to some people (particularly to those who think of all those groups of people as 'rank unbelievers', and deserve to burn, burn, burn <_< ), the distinctions are indeed very real nonetheless. For one thing, there is a difference between one who says, "I can't prove one way or another whether there is a god or not, but until you prove it to me, I just don't accept that he exists.", and one who says "I know, and can prove that there is no god/spiritual being(s)". The first is a refusal to believe until proven otherwise, while the second is a positive claim that there is, indeed, no god. Technically, the first example is known as 'weak atheism', and the 2nd is known as 'strong atheism'. (For the record, genereally speaking, I consider myself a weak atheist.) As you can probably tell, the 2nd definition is a LOT harder to argue/prove than the first. And no, agnostics don't automatically disbelieve in a deity (as far as they are concerned). They basically do not know, or think that they can know. Ie., they haven't made a believing decision one way or another. Some atheists view this as being wishy-washy or undecisive. Me, I view it as either endeavoring to figure it out, or dealing with it as tho' it isn't really worth their time or effort.

Oldies found out that he could use SUPER SIZED FONT and now he has a new toy to play with.

How about: a place where they serve fine coffee and pineapple pizza.

Any bets on how fast this entire thread will wind up down into the Soap Opera section?

Maybe this is what's meant by the baby that VPW-wannabees really don't want to throw out: Album cover for Billion Dollar Babies by Alice Cooper

Ya know, there are those of us who like *quality* in our coffee. :P Plus I don't think that the American Association of Coffee Producers would appreciate you offering that as a ((cough)) 'alternative' as coffee.

Just curious. Who is 'cid?

What if there was no tub?

You know you have forgotten what TV was like during the 60's when you hear "... only 22 lousy channels". (old geezer mode on) ONLY 22 lousy channels? Why, back in my day, they had *3* regular networks and a public television channel, and having them in color was the cool thing to have! ... Now you young whipper-snappers gotta have yer 200-300 channels with programmable saving your shows to DVD and all!! (old geezer mode off)

Yup, this is Garth Patterson (Apparently you've met me someplace in TWI or afterwards?). Disillusioned? Ohh I dunno if I'd put it exclusively that way. ... I guess its more of a case of where I realized that accepting what I was taught/told/read/dictated to by faith, and without the option to question/scrutinize/challenge/criticize/and even REJECT, ... was no longer a viable option to me. And the religious mindset seemed (to me anyway) as demanding and expecting precisely THAT. Particularly when you have various religious doctrines that frown upon the skeptical and scrutinizing mind; doctrines that expect (expect, mind you) for you to believe what they are all about BEFORE you see, or even if you DO NOT see. ... Too bad, so sad, believe it anyway, or the deity in question shall make you regret it, and often in a "It's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an Angry GOD" scenario. Well, ... Been there, Done that, Burnt the t-shirt and am DONE with that, thank you very much! P.S., and there are actually people who get offended at people like me who make that kind of decision. ... Can you believe that? :o

........ Uummmmmmm, ......... O-o-k-a-a-y-y. ((steps slowly away from the keyboard)) :unsure:

Now HERE is a guy who, not only thinks a similar Raisin Bran Crunch commercial is funny, but becomes *obsessed* with it. This is known as, GET A LIFE, DUDE!

I dunno about piffle, but one of the things that I learned here at the 'Spot is that everybody just LOVES those group hugs.

Are you f'ing serious guy?? Do you actually think that VPW having sex with her (in such a clearly manipulative manner) would heal her from her childhood troubles? ... Is that you 'walking by the spirit' according to the 'principles' of PFAL?? Is your loyalty to VPW that damn blind??

... and the Flat Earth Society says that the earth ain't round either.

WD, What you keep failing to notice/acknowledge is the many instances of abuse committed by VPW (and other TWI leadership) that HAVE been substantiated by others, and not only by other victims, but by those in former TWI leadership positions who have blown the whistle on activities like this. Leaders like: Ralph Dobofsky John Lynn John Schoenheit Vince Finnigan Steve Sann Sue Pierce and plenty others, ALL who have witnessed firsthand the abuses which are plainly illustrated here. Witnesses who _know_ of FAR more valid information about such than you ever will. And I find it totally incredulous that you also dismiss out of hand Catcup's account, and that of Marsha, without giving them any serious consideration! How much documentation/independent verification do you need before you accept the word given by those here and elsewhere that this s**t occured, hmmmm? Frankly, I think you use the "You must verify/document these occurances" as a smoke screen of denial because you have some sort of difficulty accepting that these occurances happened, perpetrated by VPW. I might be wrong in that rendering, but ya know something, when you keep hammering for more and more and more evidence that, for all practical purposes, pert near consists of actual video footage, in color, of the event, signed and notarized documents attesting to that the occurance of said event did indeed occur, written confessions of the accused, in triplicate and on legal sized paper, yadayadayada, ... I gotta start questioning what your real motives are here, as you seem to treat the accounts as tho' they were made on a whim by disgruntled ex-Wayfers who just wanted to carry a grudge. :unsure: You don't want to believe their accounts? Fine, and nobody can (or will) make you believe otherwise. Suffice it to say that the jury here at Greasespot has made up its mind (and I can say this as I see the majority of people here agree with this) as to VPW's guilt. And while there is or has been no jury that has determined Wierwille guilty from a legal standpoint, we can determine him guilty in our own beliefs and convictions, which appeal to a more moral standard. One more point tho. Please don't insult our intelligence with this presumptuous swill that, because we (supposedly and allegedly) aren't applying the same level of legal standard that you do and expect in your (supposed) appeal to American legal principle, that we are somehow less embracing and believing in that principle of innocent until proven guilty than you are. The only real difference here is that we believe that enough evidence has been given to convict, whereas you do not. ... And it goes no farther than that. So please spare us the stomach turning 'wrap yourself in the American flag' facade.

Perhaps one would/should come up with a follow-up question: WHAT SANE GOD WOULD CONDONE THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOUR??? Think about that one for a moment, VPW defenders. If you are standing up for the Principles and Truths of the One True God by voicing the things you are saying here, . . . . . what does that say about your God and His Word, ... hmmmm? What does that say about how your God would comparatively deal with those who were abused at the hands of VPW vis-a-vis His Word as portrayed in PFAL, and as to which is more important? You complain about the seemingly never-ending tirade of negative whining and complaining against Wierwille and Co., and why we all don't "just get over it!" (well, for one thing, nobody's _making_ you read this discomforting material, ... are they?) I notice that a lot of you whine and complain against Democrats, liberals, individuals who get off scot-free in our flawed judicial system, illegal immigrants, etc., etc., ad nauseum. ..... Waitaminute! What about the principle of not being so god-danged negative? Hell some of you go more ape-s**t over Hillary than Catcup or Excie does over VPW! ..... WTF is up with that contradiction?! :unsure:

Gad, this is getting totally ridiculous: Then apparently you haven't read them thoroughly, because a lot of those allegations have had detailed explanations, others who verified aforementioned behavior with what they have witnessed/experienced, and even verified witness accounts in various related court cases which further proved that these 'allegations' did indeed occur. And one thing an attorney (a good one) will tell you is that, like the biblical concept of getting multiple witnesses ("by two or more witnesses shall a man be condemned") is a sound one in just about any court. So just because the accused (VPW) is now dead, and can't 'face his accusers, that gets him off the hook as far as this 'all-American principle' is concerned? Hey, Hitler's dead too, and cannot face his accusers either. So why shouldn't the world just drop all the 'negative accusations' against him too? ... Hopefully, you now see the flaw with how you're using this 'principle'. Your comparison of the accusations of VPW, and those made against the Duke team are hideously flawed. You make the erroneous transposing of the Duke team situation over to Wierwille and Co. And yes Virginia, it IS erroneous. How many Americans gave their lives for people like Wierwille and his blind goosesteppers to take advantage of people like that, and hide behind the Bill of Rights to escape accountability, hmmmmm? ... Correct Answer: NONE! Speaking of Project Innocence, ask them, based on all the accounts here, and the opposing 'witness', about whether they would render Wierwille as innocent as the people who they actually believe is innocent. ... I'd be willing to bet solid $$$$$ that they wouldn't appreciate you're using them as a reference for Wierwille's crap! ..... Go ahead, ask them. ........ I dare you! Johniam, Your arguments are so weak, I almost feel like I'm beating up a mentally handicapped person by responding, ... but I'll respond anyway. Us 'bitterness freaks', who are *exclusively* singled out for that label, and for no better reason than our voicing our distaste for Wierwille and his ilk (and you damn well know it) know why we are continuing to do so. And it isn't 'to be seen of men' as you so blithely put it. But that is how Wierwille defind it, isn't it? So that is why you mindlessly swallow that mentality and think you're being sooo biblical and godly. Yeah, right. Thanks for the reminder of why I left.

Jonny, Looking over your past posts, and how they portrayed extolling the 'goodness' of PFAL and VPW's 'teaching of the turd---err, I mean Word' far over the realization that decent people (like Excie and Catcup's sister Marsha) have been ravaged by your 'Father in the Turd--err, Word', ... and then you refer those who complain about that as 'losers'? Tell me something chief. Is the 'god' that inspires those responses of yours really the kind of God that saves and makes you whole? Is that the kind of Deity worth worshipping? ..... To be frank and open with you, THAT is the kind of deity that I have THROWN OUT WHOLESALE! That is the kind of deity that has contributed to inspiring me to become a rank unbeliever in a god, ANY god. And sure as hell a god like *that* who demands that his people focus more loyalty upon some kraut and his mediocre class, than on those who were manipulated and violated by this same kraut! Yeah, yeah, I am angry and 'negative sounding'; guess I'm not the Positive Image of a Victorious Believer that Martindale expects us to be, ehh? <_< Well, after reading yours, Whitedove's, and Oldies downplaying/dismissal/ignoring of those who have proven their case with their documented accounts, which are backed-up with a multitude of witnesses, and for no better reason than to keep the reputation of Victor Paul Wierwille and his ministry afloat, ... I think I have a good reason. Oh, and Whitedove, your approach and (mis)usage of "we gotta have proof of the accusing accounts given" is just that, ... a misusage. Because you take these accounts to ANY court in the country, with the documentation and supporting witnesses, ... and even a 1st year law student could get a _proving_ conviction with his/her eyes closed. ... In a heartbeat. And what counter evidence have YOU given to successfully argue against these accounts? ... Nothing. ... Nada. ... Ziltch. ... Zippo. ... The big egg.

Well put post, Linda. :) We all also need to keep in mind that tobacco companies *still* are fighting the medically proven FACT that smoking causes cancer and all the other smoking related diseases. And for no better reason than the _bottom line_. Guess what folks. Nowhere in the Constitution is there any concept or law protecting smoking as part of the Bill of Rights. ... Sorry! <_<

Here's a survey you can copy and paste into your reply with your own answers. Elaborate on your answers if you like. You can also come back and write a full explanation of your position for any particular item. (Heck, you can do whatever you like!) T = true F = false U = unsure Adam and Eve are historical figures, who lived 5000 - 7000 years ago. - F Jesus of Nazareth uniquely represented the Creator as His Son. - F The risen Jesus Christ is my Lord. - Nope The Book of Job is allegorical. That is, it attempts to explain human suffering using fictional characters. - U The disciple John, one of "the twelve", wrote 5 Books: John, 1John, 2John, 3John, and Revelation. - F. None of the 4 gospel 'authors' were the actual authors of their respective books. Paul wrote Hebrews. - U Moses wrote Genesis. - F. What Abigail said David wrote the 23rd Psalm. - U Paul's doctrine of "by faith alone" contradicts James' doctrine, as recorded in the Book of James. - T, altho' it can be interpreted differently in that respect. Four were crucified with Jesus. - U, and irrelevent. I speak in tongues in my private prayer life. - F God loves homosexuals. - T, ... if this God was real and as loving as He is claimed to be. Homosexuality is not a sin. - T God does not hate. - T, ... see reason given in the hating homosexual category. 1 Cor. 12 says that all nine "manifestations" of the spirit are the privilege of everyone who has been "born again" by confessing Jesus as their lord, and believing God raised him from the dead. (When combined with Romans 10:9 and other scriptures.) - F The prayer of a believer can move God to do something He would not otherwise have done. - F Mormonism, Catholicism, and JW’s are perversions of Christianity. - F Like Abi said, they are not perversions. They are different versions. Update: Altho' I'm kinda partial to what George Aar said thusly:"How about just "perversions" just LIKE Christianity?" Some of Jesus’ teaching is impossible to carry out. - T "Sin consciousness" is not in the believer’s self-interest. - T The canon is closed. Another authentic letter of Paul will never surface. - U Depends on if someone else wants to 'discover' another treatise of Paul. Heck, Smikeol came up with PFAL as being a total replacement for the whole Bible! ;) There are authentic apostles and prophets of God living and ministering today. - F Requiring narrative answers (short or long): When Jesus told Nicodemus that he "must be born again," what did he mean? He was probably talking about some spiritual rebirth of some kind, altho' that can be taken to be any kind of religious experience, ... often involving sending some $$$$ to a televangelist. What are your thoughts on the Fourth commandment (not to work on the sabbath)? "Thou shalt sleep in on Sunday, or watch stupid Saturday morning cartoons on Saturday." So what score did I get? Do I get extra credit for the summary questions? ... Huh? Huh?