GarthP2000

Awww damn it, Sudo. Ya done told on me. Now *everybody* knows about my secret identity, and even my secret membership in the Georgia Chapter of The Illuminati. I'm still having trouble with my levitating tho. I still can't levitate my Michelob from the fridge to my desk w/o spilling it everywhere. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |_P {{{splat}}} :(--> :D--> Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Now I can readily believe that Barney the Dinosaur is a seed boy! Straight from the PIT he is. That little varmint is almost a good enough an excuse to bring back the Inquisition on his butt. :D--> Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Re R***'s post to Rottiegrrl, Siskel and Garthbert gives it two thumbs up!! R***, I am impressed! Excellent and more professionally objective definition ya got there. And one that has my respect for the A.F.F. take a big jump! :)--> "Perhaps we should all try to eliminate the 'cult' word from our terminology but it's just so darned hard!" I know, I know, and thats the downside of our culture; too often when a term reaches the 'critical mass' of popularity, it becomes pert near impossible to educate thoroughly about the flawedness of that term. Once again, WHOOO HOOO! (Garth does a Mike's World Two Thumbs Up with a Silly Grin) :D--> P.S., I posted this post early this morning, and it was nailed for a 'catch phrase' which I thought would have been cleared up by now, as I saw Rottiegrrl's mention of the same name in the post that I'm replying to. --> So just in case it was lost in the the cyber-traffic, I'm posting it again, this time with the name ***'d out. Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Re Robi's post to Rottiegrrl, Siskel and Garthbert gives it two thumbs up!! Robi, I am impressed! Excellent and more professionally objective definition ya got there. And one that has my respect for the American Family Foundation take a big jump! :)--> "Perhaps we should all try to eliminate the 'cult' word from our terminology but it's just so darned hard!" I know, I know, and thats the downside of our culture; too often when a term reaches the 'critical mass' of popularity, it becomes pert near impossible to educate thoroughly about the flawedness of that term. Once again, WHOOO HOOO! (Garth does a Mike's World Two Thumbs Up with a Silly Grin) :D--> Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Yikes! And Al Gore could have been their Grande High Poobah, The Inventor of the Internet for our Day and Time! :D--> Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Diazbro, "Of course some note that these dynamics can be found in civic organizations or rabid sales clubs like amyway though I don't buy it (no pun intended). No one at an amway meeting or the local lions club tried to cast demons out of me or rebuked me in the name of JC. Nor was I told that if I did't seel Amway that my life would nosedive and I would be "a greasepot"." So would those groups that do 'cast out demons or rebuke you in the name of JC' then fit with your definition of a 'cult'. Would a church or group that say that you are going to be a 'greasespot' or that your life would nosedive also fit with that definition? That's getting into the doctrinal side of defining 'cultness', wouldn't it? From the same 'experts' that say that doctrine makes no difference in determining such? What about a church leader that says that if you don't believe that Jesus is God, then you are an atheist? What about all the churches that say that if you do not accept Jesus Christ as your savior, you will burn in hell? Or how about many of the 'anti-cult experts' that often, out of hand, deride their critics as either 'cult apologists', 'brainwashed', or some other dismissive crack; without even hearing and considering what their critics have to say with their dissenting points. Much like we used to do in TWI to critics of VPW. And for that we were called 'brainwashed'. Why doens't the same standard apply here? Those 'dynamics' have indeed been practiced in groups that we don't normally think of as 'cults'. And that is one of the flaws in common 'cult' definitions. Ie., the definitions are often used and/or applied selectively. And dishonestly. Its much like terms like 'Liberal' or 'Staunch Conservative'. Usages like that have a lot less to do with objective definitions than emotionally based, and socially manipulative applications of the term. Thus the skeptical distrust on my (and evidently Rottiegrrl's) part in our view of the term 'cult'. And we aren't gonna relent either. Many 'anti-cult' people have indeed been trying to 'work together' to figure out and fight what they see as abuse on the part of the groups they criticize. But there is also sufficient participation of those who use the 'cult' issue to dismiss, and at times intimidate those who walk away from/defy that which is mainstream, orthodox thought. And that has, and is still happening, regardless of your defense of the term 'cult' and whatever 'professional' objectivity theymight claim for themselves. So yes, that term is being used in a not-so-objective manner by people, and more often than you might realize. And I don't have to be a 'Wierwille apologist' to know that. Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

TheHighWay, It depends on what 'expert' you're talking about. (And yes, I put that term in quotes) The 'anti-cult' movement is largely divided into two camps: the religious doctrinal 'anti-cult' movement, and the secular psychological 'anti-cult' movement. And they pretty much have a certain mistrust for the other. The psychological side usually don't focus on the doctrinal content for determining a 'cult', altho' I have heard them use it as a one of their points from time to time. The religious side usually focuses on adherance to the Official ("Biblical" they call it) church doctrine for determining 'cultness'. And even there, they don't totally agree within themselves what being a 'cult' involves. Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Hot damn! Great post Rottiegrrl. :)--> This continues to show that the 'cult' term and concept isn't as 'objective' nor a 'science' as many people think. Many folks think that the term 'cult' has been either scientifically figured out, or a term introduced by Jesus Christ Himself. Its more of a sociological term, often bandied about or used to try to describe a group that either 1) controls people through religious means, 2) preaches false doctrine and worship, 3) isn't mainstream enough to suit many people, so they become afraid of it, or other reasonable sounding or not-so-reasonable sounding reasons. And yet you hear folks using that term as though it is THE definitive term, and like you have seen, many don't go any farther in thinking what or why or how a certain group is called a 'cult'. Now groups like TWI & $cientology do bring that term upon themselves, and often justly so, from one angle or another. Others don't go around trying to control people like that, but do have their 'gurus' or 'spiritual masters', and thus also get nailed with that term. There are churches that do preach that in order for you to be saved, you must believe in the trinity. One popular radio preacher here in Atlanta went so far as to say that unless you believed in the trinity, you were an atheist. It runs the whole gamut from the reasonable to the totally insane. --> Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Raf, "Umm, I can't find this comment about walking in the PFAL book. Not that I've dissected every page, but I just don't see it." :)--> That's why you have to ... MASTER PFAL!! :D--> BWUua-hahahahahahahahahahahaha Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Zix, Ouch!! ;)--> Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Larry, "While I don't actually have the time to properly address the latest veiled threats of both Garth and Ex-10, which are on the same level as the most hideous inhumane tortures of the inquisition - rising to the level of the rack, the screw, ..." ??? You are implying by implication that Ex and I are going to put you on the rack and screw you?!? Even tho' that isn't in the originals, that is indeed implied by implication, which of course I have dodged, challenged and baited enough to see, spiritually of course. If Cynic wasn't here with his Calvinistic, Republican country club, polemic unrememberable words, ..... Oh wait, he isn't here! There I go unremembering again. :(--> Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

This thread is a total riot ..... :D--> Except I don't have the time to ...... ....... I fergot! What is it that I don't have the time for?? --> Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

31-1 so far, the no votes winning hands down, and the yes votes doing worse than the Reform Party under Pat Buchanan. :D--> Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Indiana Jones ... and The Lost Teaching :D--> :D--> :D--> heeheehee ((running and ducking)) Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Evan, The thing about trinitarianism vs. unitarianism is that it isn't unique to Wierwille. The concepts of one God and Jesus Christ not being God goes back for centuries. And despite Wierwille's lack of character, and no matter how you wish to apply the "you shall know them by their fruits" doctrine, the point I made still stands, on its own. Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Def, The thing about VPW and his character (or lack thereof) relating to this thread and the validity of the doctrine of the trinity, is that VPW's character (or lack thereof) has absolutely nothing to do with the validity of trinitarianism or unitarianism, as there have been sainst and slime on both sides of the aisle. Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Web design and development! Yes, yes, I know, the Dot.Com crash really put the punch into the 'internet' economy, but the internet as a viable informational, educational, entertaining, and economical medium and avenue is here to stay. I've heard one national news item that the average time that people spend on the internet ranges from 7-10 hours a week, more than even TV or radio. And more and more people are spending $$$ over the 'net too, despite some misgivings about security via the transactions. And all this translates into a growing need for web designers and developers. :)--> A couple of things to learn while you're developing your web design skills that can really add punch to your portfolio are 1) Flash, 2) graphics illustration (via Photoshop or some other graphics app), 3) Visual Basic and database design, and 4) computer network skills. Any of those can add value to your work; the more you learn, the better. And to make it even better, view it as fun to learn and really get into it. Kinda like art class or building projects in a way. Be creative! Computers can be fun that way. Anywho, thats my suggestion. Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Just like a kid who covers his eyes and says "You can't see me!", ... so is Mike's ((cough)) 'research' principle in determining the "God Breathed perfection" of PFAL. "Let's all ride on Mike's PFAL submarine, hisss precioussss submarine, his sinking submarine, ...." :D--> Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Zix, Yup. Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Orange, I'm trying to encourage folks to check out my web design and graphics skills, not scare them away. Besides, I don't do obscene sites. :D--> Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Erick, "Name the time and the place and I'm there...for any of my brothers and sisters, even for the ones who have called me a jerkoff. :-)" Wow! Such dedication! Such commitment! Such sacrifice to go to all that selfless and back-breaking trouble of typing in that sentence that shows how selfless you are! --> Yah! And Bill Clinton could feel our pain too. Ya know, all this supposed emphasis of focusing on our 'deliverance' from bitterness, angst, and obsession with a dead man looks, ohh how did V. P. Wierwille put it, ... ohh so religious, so sincere! Kinda like when VPW showed us in the PFAL class when Paul went to Jerusalem when God told him not to go, remember that segment? And when they all heard these things, they beseeched Paul not to go to Jerusalem. And Paul said "What mean ye to weep and break mine heart? Don't you people know, that I am not only ready, but even to die for the sake of the Lord Jesus?" Man, wasn't that so religious? ... sincere? Yep. But dead wrong. Remember that? Well, what you're posing here is very similar, except you're song-and-dance is this supposed 'concern' about us 'getting over the bitterness' of the abuses in TWI. That we are delivered into the positive freedom and abundance and yadayadayada. .... BULL....!! (Yes Virginia, I said a naughty word. Guess what? So did VPW, your 'Father in the Word', plenty of times. I know, 'cause I heard him myself! So please don't come off like you're shocked and like I'm just being 'bitter'.) You came on here with no other purpose than to defend and whitewash the man Victor Paul Wierwille; that was plainly evident in your first post in "VPW - a believer". (thus drawing my 'jerkoff' comment) People here have b*tched about far more than VPW here; we also picked on LCM, RFR, Clinton, Dubya, each other, etc., etc. But it was our picking on VPW that got your panties in a knot, and nothing else. Well, that's just tough! Thats life here at the Greasespot. Hey! Nobody made you come here. Nobody is making you read all the anti-VPW postings. Ain't no 'mind control' going on over here. I got a question for ya, dude. Remember reading in the Gospels where Jesus Christ is going on about the Pharisees and Sadducees and all? I mean, he is going on and on about how wicked they were and calling them whited sepulchers and children of the devil and stuff? Was He being bitter in your opinion? Or how about Paul going off about the false teachers and apostles in I and II Timothy, Titus and elsewhere. Or Peter doing the same thing in I and II Peter? Were they bitter too? Or maybe is there something godly about pointing and exposing the examples of teachers and leaders who screw people over, as an object lesson of "This is what a leader is not!" Which do you think it is, hmmm? I hope I didn't come off too 'vile' for ya. Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

What is, "Put up or shut up?" "I'll take Abject Denial for $400, Alex." Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Fascinating, just fascinating! "I think that all the errors you all see there will evaporate as you change your perspective. This takes time, though." So that's how you 'work thru the ACs of PFAL'. Change your perspective. Not look at the apparent contradictions and prove whether or not they are actual errors. But change your perspective. And then the ACs go away, don't they? This is like a little child covering his eyes and saying "You can't see me!" And you view that as honest research in determining the truth in PFAL, ehh? "I firmly believe the right and proper procedure of a Bible student is to DODGE all Bible difficulties, things that look a lot like errors, and concentrate on plain reading and comparing and remembering." & "If such a Bible student is confronted by an unbeliever with what they describe as a Bible error, the right and proper procedure is to DODGE. Witness if possible, distract, challenge right back, but NEVER consider the error as an error." Now this takes TWI's practices (like answering a question w a question, and not answering any challenging questions) to a whole new level of dishonesty. Hell guy, you even got the Corps level song-and-dance in that area beat. Talk about one's blind loyalty! If you were in a ship that was clearly sinking, and PFAL said that it wasn't, you would deny to the hilt that your ship is sinking, simply by the very statement of PFAL that your ship is not sinking. You would be drowning, and act as tho' nothing wrong is happening. "Never consider an error as an error" Hokey Smokes!! Is that the level of dedication that you are showing VPW and PFAL? And you want to invite the rest of us to 'be meek enough' to join you? No thanks! I feel safe to say that we all bailed from the TWItanic, and have no desire to go back. --> Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Jerry, Welcome back dude! Remember the food fights we had on the CES board? :D--> You said, "if Dr. Weirwille says the Bible fits like a hand in a glove and the class on Power For Abundant Living gives us the keys so we can clearly understand the Bible, why shouldn't the class itself fit like a hand in a glove? Shouldn't Dr. Weirwille at least adhere to the very tenets he teaches? If these keys are so wonderful, why the heck doesn't he USE them?" Excellent point! Mike, wouldn't you agree? You'd think that a 'man of God' who supposedly wrote the 'God Breathed Word' in PFAL would indeed apply these golden nuggets throughout that 'God Breathed' book. One thing I learned about what 'God breathed' is indeed when God 'breathes' out something, that thing would be perfect, as God Himself is perfect. To illustrate my point, picture this: God the computer software developer, designing an operating system, OK? When regular human programmers develop an application or operating system, they write the code, clean up the spelling errors and syntax errors, run it thru the compiler, debug the logical errors, link the code up with other components, debug the link errors, put it all together and burn it on a master CD. And that's just for the alpha version. To get through the beta versions, the pre-release versions and finally to the release version, they have to go through all of that over and over again, ad nauseum! And that's for version 1, ... before they get to the 'updates', ie., bug fixes. Yah! That's called the Microsoft Design Technique. :D--> When God the Software Developer writes software, He sits down, types the code into the compiler -- ONCE. All of it. No logic errors. No syntax errors. Not even a typo. At all! He then compiles it. No problems. He links it with the components. No problems. He puts it all together and burns the master CD. Boom! Done. No need for an alpha version. No beta. No pre-release. No need to call it version 1, because there won't be any need for a version 2, version 1.1, not even a 1.0.0.1a bug fix. At all. Nada! THAT kind of programmer will drive Bill Gates **nuts** and drive Micro$oft out of business in a week. Now why can't a God, who created the heavens and the earth with such jaw-dropping precision, accuracy and beauty, 'God breathe' a Book that has the same perfection, hhmmm? (And there are a lot of folks who have and always will bring up points about whether or how much the Bible, in whatever version, meets that specification.) Yet your version of 'God breathed' via PFAL means that it has to go through rewrites, spelling checks, revisions, and even after all that, still have glaring errors, both biblical and logical? What are you accusing God of being, a Micro$oft developer? :D--> Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Mike! The central point to all of our naysaying is that VPW's writings in the PFAL book isn't God breathed, and that you haven't proven at all why it is. And yet now you try to hem and haw and indicate that you still aren't sure, even after 27 years of studying his works and you come on to this board to say that now you KNOW that what he wrote was God breathed. Yes,...no,...yes,...no,...maybe,...I dunno. Our "rush to judgement" is trying to get you to clearly show, by summery if need be, what it was that makes the proof that PFAL is God breathed! --> And there has been far more than enough discussion, research, and counter arguments done not only here, but at Waydale, CES board, and elsewhere that blows the PFAL Is God-breathed clean out of the water. Whatever! Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com