GarthP2000

What the Hay, If your sister/wife/mother/daughter had experienced these same injustices at VPW's hands, and wouldn't sweep them under the rug, (and all in the name of the 'renewed mind' and 'love of God', donchaknow), but would tell all and expose VPW for what he has done and the type of man that he was, ... would she too, be rendered by you as having a 'sense of inadequacy and impotence' because of this? Would that be your version of 'living the Word' as an example to her? If the One True God cannot get beyond VPW as a means of communicating His Word to people, then that god is a very small and limited god indeed, ..... not worthy of the time of day, let alone worship and honor. --> My own secret sign-off ====v, Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations. Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Mistaken opinion on various points? No doubt, as sooner or later I'll get something wrong. No denial there. But a deliberate liar I am not. And the fact that I have little regard for John Calvin is of no consequence in such. And I see no need to have any more respect nor honor for Calvin than I have for Weirwille. And whatever killing of intelligent debate is just as much to do with your anal and derisive attitude as it is to my 'polemics'. And with that, I'll leave this thread back to Trevor with my apologies for my part in the derailment. I wonder if the other party will do the same. My own secret sign-off ====v, Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations. Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Cynic, "Blood-libels". Wow! Such a strong term. I had no idea that that little French preppie meant so much to you. "despite their possible imprecision" Really? Now what *did* your denomination teach you about Calvin's life and example? Was it some sort of Reformist version for Calvin of Elena Whiteside's "The Way: Living in Love" whitewash of VPW's life and example? That Calvin ran Geneva with an iron fist from behind the scenes is well documented to anyone who has read about Calvin from sources that aren't directly funded by the Reformed Church. Nothing unique there; as lots of churches and church leaders back then were quite strict and punative towards those whom they considered 'heretics' (Need links to prove that too, a$$wipe?). For example, Martin Luther had a serious anti-Jewish problem that made VPW's anti-semitism look pale by comparison. And of course you have your Catholic Church who was famous for the Inquisitions, a fact not lost on Calvin himself in his rantings against the 'Popish Church'. So I seriously don't think that its a 'blood libel' to nail Calvin's a$$ to the wall when he partakes of that same or similar practice. So blow me. And no, I'm not going to provide you with each and every link to 'prove' every point I make, as I'm not presenting a historical doctrinal thesis to some university board of regents here. If you don't want to believe me, fine. But heck, since we're on the 'prove it to me or else' approach, why not you show me counter evidence to support your claims that Calvin didn't do these things. And bringing up (or should I say hiding behind) these 'blood libels' is an effective means of challenging what I said re: your ad hominum snide swipe at Excathedra? Or anything else that I might bring to your attention? "Hi Cynic. Nice weather we're having, isn't it?" "Well?? Where are the other 23 victims of Calvin, you Unitarian, blood libeling, polemic, heretical hack?!? Huh??" ??? --> "Damn man, take some Midol!" Perhaps you need to take a more reasoned approach to deal with me 'getting in your face', y'think? --> My own secret sign-off ====v, Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations. Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Is this the best you can come back with? Or is this one of those 'gotta defend a fellow Republican no matter what' frat brother sort of thing? I'm sorry, but I didn't know that I made Cynic 'look good' because I called him on his condescending arrogance, particularly towards Excathedra in this case. And all he could come back with is to bring up an unsettled argument to deflect the criticism. Oh I know, its because I'm such the 'liberal', isn't it? Therefore that 'neccesitates' my words not meaning a thing, is that it? (As tho' that argument really carries any weight -- which it does not) My own secret sign-off ====v, Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations. Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

As usual, Cynic needs links to every historical source every time a commonly known historical fact is made, particularly when regarding Calvin. And he does so in such a straw man like fashion. (After Goggling the internet for the supposedly non-existant references) OK, Cynic, here are some references that show that Calvin wasn't such the non-persecuting saint you wish to make him: 1) http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ247.HTM - Showing the mindset of the one whom you can't seem to believe that he'd do such things. 2) http://online.sksm.edu/ouh/chapter/13_XIII.html - And what if Gribaldo hadn't backed down like he did, wouldn't he too have been executed for heresy? 3) http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:5pFu4...&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 - Ohh look! Others who were actually killed, or at least whom Calvin went after with the intent of killing. How many of those whom I have failed to prove is it whittled down to now? :D--> Your turn, Mr. Strawman. My own secret sign-off ====v, Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations. Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Zix, Insteresting that Cynic tells Ex to '.... off', and acts in his usually condescending and derisive manner to her as well, and yet ex's 'snits' seem to stand out to you more? Here she is trying to get him to speak in a form English that more people than just William Buckley can understand, and he just blows her off. Let someone try that .... on you, and then let's see what you think. And frankly, I think that your attempts to disguise your opposition to homosexuality behind 'legal reasoning', 'special rights', 'comparative analysis', etc. wears a little thin. Especially with your line of "If there were no homosexuals, would the world miss them" 'logic' to help bolster your case. That is so transparent, its not even funny. Tell us truly: why does homosexualtiy really get to you? Apart from the biblical injunction, that is? My own secret sign-off ====v, Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations. Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Hee hee, if this is the best you can come back with, bringing up unsettled arguments that you had with me as a means of 'proving' your case, then you must be getting desperate. Calvin was responsible for more than just Servetus' death. And the evidence documenting this isn't a result of some 'intellectual vitality of a lazy fabricator'. Plus I imagine that if it weren't so well known that Calvin was responsible for Servetus' death, you'd deny that too, and hope that nobody would be the wiser. Perhaps you aren't as objective about the founder of your denomination as you'd like for us to think, hmmm? Thank you for showing me further why Calvinism (your brand anyway) is best avoided. My own secret sign-off ====v, Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations. Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Cynic, Ex shows us all clearly that you need to learn the basic principle that is illustrated in I Corinthians 14:9 : There ya go, orthodox Bible verse even. My own secret sign-off ====v, Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations. Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Then challenge them. And please base it beyond your typical and thinly-veiled loyalty to your orthodoxy. It does get old after a while. My own secret sign-off ====v, Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations. Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

That, plus Cynic has this rather irritating habit of talking like a cliquish prep school bookworm who confuses bandying about big sounding words for utilizing 'Scripture for faith and practice'. Never mind that you don't see biblical individuals like Peter, Paul, David, or even Jesus Christ going around and talking like they are some William Buckley knock-off, and then getting all huffy about 'orthodoxy' and 'polemic heretical hacks' when challenged. No, they acted more real than that. Heck, and they weren't even Republicans! Update: Cynic spouteth: ".... off!" Now, now Cynic, who'se acting polemic now? Or are you going to give us a Buckleyesque critique and apologetic about why your snit towards Ex is justified? Defending the 'Gospel', no doubt? My own secret sign-off ====v, Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations. Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

M&A, Yeah! And while we're at it, since we're being so 'godly' and all ((GAG)) :o-->, why not round them up, tie them up to some fence post during the dead of winter and pistol whip them, just like Matthew Shepard. Or witch hunts, where you re-enact the Salem witch trials, except this time determining who is gay and who isn't; where one sure fire tactic was to throw them in the water with rocks tied to them, and if they float, they are innocent, and if they don't .... ((shrug)) --> Tell me something dude. Do you belong to that God Hates Fags Church? Cause you sure sound like a sure fire successor to that Fred Phelps guy. Is he grooming you to take over? ..... Kinda like VPW groomed L. Craig Martindale? (This guy is a classic example of why fundies sometimes make me throw up) :o--> :P--> Mark, Excuse me, but there are some things that 'the PEOPLE' via the legislative process have no business in determining. Private and consenting relationships between adults, and the full legal protection of them, is one of them. There are a couple of others that 'the PEOPLE' cannot touch through the legislative process. Ohhh, like freedom of religion being one. And the right to own and bear arms for your and your family's protection is another. As long as they aren't pushing it directly on you and making you participate, you aren't being harmed. Plus I think that there are perhaps more important and relevant issues that we, as a people, need to deal with, perhaps? My own secret sign-off ====v, Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations. Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Tough love, care of Smikeol. ... Kinda gets ya ((lightly thumping on chest)) right here, ya know? --> Please! Do NOT tempt us like that!! Notice folks, that NOWHERE does he come right out and apologize and admit that he might be wrong in his approach. ... Plus could someone please tell me how someone can 'get in the way' with a post on an internet message board? --> Maybe Exxie shoulda been sitting in a different chair at a different computer? Would you have missed her then Smikey? Shoot Smikeol. All that has to be done is for YOU to leave and start up that nice shiney thread of yours, and the mess here will take care of itself. Simple. :D--> My own secret sign-off ====v, Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations. Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Well actualy, Zix, Ozzie Osbourne is British. :D--> For me? Pretty much anything thats on the Big Three Networks (NBC, ABC, and CBS). They have been lacking quality programming for almost as long as cable has been out. :P--> :o--> My own secret sign-off ====v, Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations. Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

I mentioned nothing about sodomy laws either. My focus was your points as regarding society's duty to perpetuate, what would be missed if there was no homosexuals, and why that is largely irrelevant as relating to government involvement, (which has a more vested interest, Constitutionally-wise, as to the protection of our personal and private freedoms). And since when was equal regard as to full rights within the marriage context 'special consideration'? (Is it because homosexuality is specifically mentioned in these cases? Is that what makes it 'a special right'?) Or any other right that the homosexual community requested for themselves. No difference than the rights enjoyed by anyone else. Correct me specifically if I'm wrong as to this point. My own secret sign-off ====v, Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations. Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Zix, You brought up these points before, and they are still either irrelevant, have no real effect on society, and clearly needs no government intervention. Here's why. 1) Society does indeed have a duty to self-perpetuate. And that duty is more than covered by humanity's natural urges to have sex. And that is in no danger of seriously waning (to the point of having a negative drop in the population) anytime soon. As a matter of fact, it has been often said that this society, if anything, is *over*sexed. Yet Another Indicator that there is no danger of society 'not perpetuating'. That alone puts a serious damper in your argument. 2) Despite your argument of society's duty to self-perpetuate, there is nowhere in our governing documents that specifically gives government the means to see that the duty is carried out by society. Again, see point one as to why this is (and should be) a non-issue to the powers that be. 3) The question on whether society would lose anything if there were no homosexuals is the irrelevant part, and really, a question that civilized people have no place in seriously asking. It is very similar to asking whether society would lose anything if there weren't any retarded/handicapped people. I don't know what it does for you, but the mindset behind such questions, particularly if the asker was very serious about those questions, gives me the willies. Need I say more? Besides, isn't society fluid and flexible enough to take care and work around whatever 'irregularities' that 'non-normal' sexual practices between adults just might bring up? Hell, society has been propagating itself for thousands of years, and homosexuality has been practiced right along with it. ... I mean, when you have over *6 billion people* on this globe, self-perpetuation isn't exactly the foremost problem here, y'think? Maybe the over-crowding problem might be a little more relevant? Just something to think about. My own secret sign-off ====v, Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations. Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Not to worry, Abigail. Smikeol is doing the job quite nicely on his own. --> Statements like "Thinking for oneself is doomed to the adversary's influence." is but one clear indicator. My own secret sign-off ====v, Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations. Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

What is this? Smikeol plays 'good cop' while What The Spew plays 'bad cop'? --> Whattadeal, Mark!! Go for it! Go for it! ..... But make sure that he calls collect, ... and person to person instead of station to station, where the rates are higher, .... and during the day too, .... and make him spend a LOT of time, .... AT&T rates even. :D--> Can I come up with money making idea$ or what?! :D--> My own secret sign-off ====v, Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations. Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

This is your mind on Smikeol ... ..... Any questions? --> My own secret sign-off ====v, Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations. Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Here is Yet Another Classic Gem from Smikeol, proving Yet Again that his brain is drizzling merrily down the drain: Glaw-rey! So that is what's going to happen at the Return, eh? One giant video PFAL class with Jesus leading it. I wonder how much He'll charge us to take it? :P--> My own secret sign-off ====v, Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations. Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Brady, ROFLMAO!!! :D--> :D--> ... That's a classic! I love it! My own secret sign-off ====v, Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations. Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

666 means ..... that Bill Gates in the Anti-Christ. And that AO-Hell is his prophet. Oh wait, .... the job of the Anti-Christ will be outsourced to some guy in India. Hey! Who said that the devil doesn't know how to save some buck$? :D--> My own secret sign-off ====v, Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations. Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

No Oldies, she is NOT taking this too far. Consider what any sexual abuse victim went through, and Rascal's, Excathedera's, et al responses and posts fall right into line with how any normal woman would react and openly say. And yes, Virginia, it was sexual abuse that old VeePee did to those women, even those who agreed to it; no way you can weasle out of that. The fact that he was regarded as a leader and father figure locks that judgement shut. Finis. No my friend, you are (still) taking protecting VPW's reputation too far. For one thing, getting anal about the word 'us' instead of 'I' is one sure sign. See, often the usage of the term 'we' doesn't imply absolute coverage, as in "each and every one of us went though such-and-such", but is more often used as simply a multiple number of people. Simple. And its a very common usage that most people are familiar with. And to get anal and nit-picky because Rascal didn't use 'I' instead of 'us' in each and e-v-e-r-y account of the abuses smacks (IMHO) of some other motivation and reason for complaining about it, ... y'think? Ie., if the shoe fits, wear it. If it don't why not learn from it anyway? You got your worth out of TWI, a valid point there. The rest has turned out to be bull...., including what VPW in his heart and life wound up becoming. And it rots worse than his corpse has ever done. 'Nuff said. My own secret sign-off ====v, Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations. Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Early2it, In the immortal words of Sgt. Hulka in the flick "Stripes", ... "Lighten up, Frances!" Yah! Like that is going to win you respect -- NOT! How difficult is it for you to understand that? JustThinking, Just ignore this dude. My own secret sign-off ====v, Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations. Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

The best alternative that I have found to selecting 'remove me' from spammers lists is downloading a utility called Mailwasher (www.mailwasher.net). Not only does it allow you to block spam, and it does lern as you direct it, but you are able to bounce the spam back to the source (in most cases). That way, they don't see that you are a 'valid email' addy that they can continue hassling. :)--> My own secret sign-off ====v, Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations. Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com

Socks, You give a whole new meaning to the phrase 'break dancing', guy. My own secret sign-off ====v, Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations. Prophet Emeritus of THE, and Wandering CyberUU Hippie, Garth P. www.gapstudioweb.com