GarthP2000

Raf, Like Long Gone, I too would be against litigated non-belief just as much as litigated belief. Trefor, Re: these societies who force non-belief on people, there has been/is a gross misrepresentation often believed by many people that atheism = (or is related to) communism. That is (as you can probably see) a fallacy. For one thing, some of the leaders in the Soviet Union were themselves members of the Eastern Orthodox Church. Also, the 'religion is an opiate of the people' argument put forth by Marx was simply incidental to the Communist doctrine, as Communism dealt with economics and the control of wealth, and not with whether or not there was a god; the concept of god being a non-issue to the ownership of wealth and property related to 'the workers of the world'. Ie., atheism has a lot less to do with communism than many people might think, even if there are many communists who are atheists. It would be like saying because there are communists in England, that England is related to the communist cause. And like the forced atheism has failed completely, so will any attempts (and yes Virginia, there are still various, yet disguised attempts) to force religion on people.

Raf, When the Pledge of Allegiance, it being primarily used as a civics-lesson-by-example to teach students about loyalty to country, includes the part about "under God" as a part of that oath, that pledge of loyalty to your country, then yes, it is an endorsement of religion, and not only that, but conveys the idea that to be loyal to your country, you must believe that this country is 'under God'. And unfortunately, neither this argument nor the reasoning behind separation of church and state doesn't get much traction today, mainly because of popular patriotic-colored spoutings high on emotion yet altogether ignore what the Constitution and the men who wrote it really communicated about the relationship between government and religion. Look at some of the responses here. Classic examples of 'if it looks red, white, and blue' then its good enough for me' mentality. -->

Johniam, Only if you campaign for Kerry. And get yourself a "Vote For Hillary in 2008" sticker. Do that, and I'll sign your petition. :D-->

Maybe because they are PIG's instead, ya think? :D-->

Evidently someone has been asleep during civics class. The consent of the governed via a republican form of government as set up by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights; the Bill of Rights (the 1st Amendment being a part of that) being neccessary to protect the rights of the minority from the sometimes mob mentality of the majority. Come on, Johniam, you mean to tell me you can't reason better than that? --> You mean to tell me that you actually agree with Roy boy that the sovereignty of God has to be officially recognized as part of/propagated by the state?

Then perhaps some good person could have the judge explain that the 'Sovereign God' doesn't have even the right to vote in this country. It may be due to the fact that is illustrated in the preamble to the Declaration of Independence shown here: Note that it doesn't say "from the consent of God". Perhaps the good judge shoud take a gander at that and see who really is the 'sovereign' ruler according to the document, hmmm?

Also, keep from touching the screen, especially after digging into those chocolates. :D-->

Yup! Looks like God can't inspire people with the principles imbedded in the 10 Commandments without 'gummint' assistance, hmmm? Whatta witness for Him! -->

Well actually, I was in the middle of something important (an online game :D-->), and I just didn't want to be bothered at the time. So I guess any 'importance' of Way related issues have pretty much faded from view in my life. Party on!

Paw, Ahh I see. To warn them of a *false infidel* in their midst, ehh? Well, two can play at that game, as I have lived in that apartment complex for several years now, and know quite a number of people here. And I can (and will) inform them as to what kind of group TWI is. So I won't be the only non-friendly here that they will have to deal with. ;)--> Bring it ON, WayGB!

Well folks, something has happened that I thought wouldn't happen in a million-to-one odds. Two Way believers came knocking on my door. It was two ladies who looked in their 30s to 40s (definitely not the average early 20s young and bouncy type that was prevalent in the 70s); one white and the other black. At first they introduced themselves as "getting to know our neighbors" and that they moved into building 11 (I live in another building, so immediately I initially thought that they were either witnesses for a local church or Jehovah's Witnesses or something.) But then they said that they were running "a home bible fellowship", and *bing*, a light went off in my head, and I asked them "You folks aren't by any chance with the Way International, are you?", and of course, they said "Why yes we are!". So I told them that I wasn't interested, my having been with TWI before and that I left the group and wasn't interested in returning." So they didn't give any argument, said goodbye, and left. At the time, I didn't stop to think about giving them Greasespot's addy, but if I run into them again, I know I will. (big grin) Imagine. And I wondered if any of them were ever going to 'grace' my door. :D-->

It used to be here the Mac had a commanding lead in the graphics and design department. Not so much anymore, particularly if you have one of those 'gaming machines', since the resources/components that you would need for the graphics are all right there. I think Wordwolf has given the soundest advice if its a 'need to do' case, as the machine you described should do very well for you for at least 2 more years. However, if you want to go ahead and upgrade, the prices/choices have never been better. If you do, don't scrimp. Go ahead and spend that extra $$$ to keep your machine 'current' and powerful/effective enough to last you at least 4 years; ie., get more than enough HD space, memory, video card that does more than you need, built in ethernet connection even. Ask around from folks that you know and trust and get all the info to make a decision from. Happy Hunting!

P-mosh, Ahh, altho' Bush and his family has quite a bit of questionable connections with some rich Saudis, I think you're going to have to do just as much to prove any connection with 9-11 and other related activities as well, dude. Those are pretty serious charges there, even the one about 'letting 9-11 happen'. Again, where is exhibit A, B, and C please? And no, Micheal Moore hasn't provided proof either, just some very good questions to ask in his flick, and that is as far as it goes.

Eagle, You are like the prosecuting attorney who says to the judge during a trial, "Of course we have evidence that will convict this man, your honor!" and then provides arguments as to why the accused is guilty, but provides not one shred of actual evidence. ... Oh wait. Are you referring to that he protested and testified against the war in Paris? Is this your 'documented evidence'? "... when he continuously protested our presence their giving so much hope and aid to the enemy that the NVA saw this division and launched a major offensive called the Easter offensive in 1972 which killed my friends." Is that it? Oh wow! So the NVA heard about John Kerry testifying in Paris, and said "Hot Damn! Here is our chance to drive out the imperialist war pigs! Lets attack NOW! Thank you comrade Kerry!!" For the love of Pete, guy. Many people both well known and common were demonstrating against that war, from Eugene McCarthy and other senators back in '67 all the way forward. And the NVA didn't need our divisions to attack. Hell, what about the Tet Offensive back in '68? Or back in the mid 60's when Johnson decided to go full bore against North Vietnam and even bring B-52s into the picture. Didn't squelch them then either. Not for very long anyway. It was an unjust and poorly fought war. True the vast majority of troops over there (including yourself I wager) weren't the bad guys, just the higher ups (including Lyndon Johnson) and the troops who did crap like My Lai were the ones who dirtied up America's reputation, and I imagine that Kerry did some crap himself in the shooting of those civilians. But treason isn't part of what he was guilty of, at least not in protesting that war. Hell chief, if you are going to have the mitigated gaul at accusing those who protested/demonstrated against the war or who were for that protesting, then at least have the honest courage at accusing those of us here on Greasespot of treason too. Be consistant and honest in your accusations, pal! Better yet, get off this sick kick of thinking that those who love this country are only those who are blindly loyal and in agreement with every war it fights. "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt Think about the man who made that statement. A very patriotic one. Think about that statement. And he made that statement during World War I from what I hear. ... According to your belief, why shouldn't that be rendered 'treason' as well, hmmmm?

Eagle, You have the documentation, sources, and *details* of what he did in Paris with the enemy? How did he 'collaberate' with the enemy? All I hear so far here are accusations with no exhibits A, B, or C. Oh, and how is it that what Kerry supposedly did that got you nearly killed? You mean it wasn't the Vietcong or North Vietnamese that were shooting at you? --> When Kerry spoke out, what was it that he was specifically speaking out against? It wasn't the war itself, but the American troops themselves that he spoke out against? Again, exhibits A, B, and C please. And please, let it not be some accusations trumped up or 'evidence' rounded up from questionable sources who were 'sure about what Kerry did' even if they weren't there to verify it by those who were ....ed off because he threw his medals away or spoke out against the war. (Besides, is Bush lying then because he said that Kerry served honorably in Vietnam?) Ok, so evidently Kerry's record in Vietnam isn't as pretty or as wonderful as he would like to make it out to be, but this is the charge of being a traitor we're talking about here, and neither indignant feelings, nor unsubstantiated charges just isn't good enough to try the man for treason. Let's do better than Dan Rather or the Swiftboat Veterans for Propagand--err, I mean Truth at this, ok? P.S., you know what I would like to see happen with all these accusations of 'treason', 'traitor' and the like thrown around like water? Bring them up before a special federal grande jury, both the accusers and the accused. If the accused is proven guily beyond any doubt, he loses ALL chance of running for office, and yes, to be thrown in prison. BUT, if the accuser loses (ie., not prove their case according to the standard the law requires), then they should lose their right to vote from thenceforth forward, or some other serious consequence. And believe you me, a LOT of these charges would drop like flies, because you know and I know that a good portion of these charges of treason, particularly made during an election year, ain't worth a rat's ***. Particularly if they never wound up in court to begin with, hmmm? Already they found so many holes in the Swiftboat Veteran's for Propaganda--err Truth, that it isn't funny. Almost as funny as Dan 'I Hate Bush' Rather's F*** Up of his career.

Eagle, Why is it that you think that Kerry was a traitor from Vietnam? He didn't fight for the enemy, nor did he give any secrets or military info to the enemy. Was it because he spoke out against the Vietnam War? Thrown his medals away? ... That isn't treason. Is it traitorous to speak out against a war that you don't think is right? Sorry chief, but I don't agree there, as trying to fasten treason to protesting an war that isn't right does nothing to promote nor protect freedom. I mean, how many people here on Greasespot who plainly were against the Vietnam War (like me, proudly) would you be willing to be consistant and call us traitors as well, hmmm? Frankly, this kind of goosestepping mindset is starting to tick me off. :(--> "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt You see that quote right after all of P-Mosh's posts? That one quote, by a *very* patriotic president, speaks volumes. And is one that shows and honors *true* freedom.

Evan, I wuv you too.

This is what happens when you don't play the computer game version. In the computer game version, Eric blows away the gazebo with a Doom III grade bazooka/missile launcher. In the Office XP version, Eric tries to install the Gazebo XP add-on to Office, and it crashes. In the Mac version, Eric downloads a bunch of MP3s via GazeboTime Pro and plays it on his IMac.

Shutes and Ladders? Have Gun, Will Travel? Ahhh, those were the days, I tell ya.

Rascal, Perhaps there is one thing that I now realize that perhaps you might be mistaking me on: And thats I'm not telling you where to send your kids. I never mentioned that, nor do I even try to persuade you to do that in a round about way. If I came across that way, my apologies, as that was not my intent. All I was addressing was the public school issues *in general* and *overall*. Even with me not having any kids, and never been in a public school for 30 years now, I also realize the horrid mess a lot of them are in. I also realize that quite a number of them are a lot better than that. And that there are a larger 'handful' of teachers that are doing their dead level best to improve things. You don't have to send your kids back to public school to put the heat on the public school officials. The fact that you are home schooling them is quite a statement (indictment even) in itself. All I'm saying is that the system itself has worked before, and can still work again, with enough effort by American society to do so.

I'll take "Public Education, and the Single People w/o Children who Love it" for $1000, Alex.

And as much as I respect you Rascal, you know nothing about the why's or wherefor's of why I say what I say. No, you don't, offended or not. If it were a case of me speaking *JUST* from my own experience, then yeah, you have a valid point to make about me not having children to talk about the public school system and its effects on kids, parents, etc. BUT, what I'm saying is a result of (like I mentioned earlier) conversations with folks from BOTH sides of the aisle. So your 'you're not a parent, so you don't know' argument doesn't work here. No, it doesn't. I know of one lady who is a VERY conciencious public school teacher who teaches high school, and you would definitely find your match in her if she heard your wholesale condemnation of 'the system does not want to be fixed' rountine, and she could easily shoot down a lot of what you are saying about it. Not of your personal experiences, but of your wholesale application of that to the whole system. I've heard about Grissom, and I concur with you there. That school had (has?) a horrible reputation for its sucky quality of education. But that does not represent the whole school system, any more than Huntsville High does. And I've heard equally incredible acounts of teachers having the same kinds of problems with some parents. ... And the thing about all this? Is that your accounts, AND their accounts, are *both* true. Sorry, but I will not throw out wholesale the value that our public education system can be (and still is!) for this country as a whole. It does need to be fixed, and the anal retentive jerks who do not want it fixed should be given the Donald Trump treatment: "You're fired!" And this can happen when enough parents, teachers, citizens, et al put up enough fire to their butts (home schooling being but one way of doing this) to force the change. It can be done. It really can.

Geee, where to begin. Evan, money goes up, scores go down, ehh? You sound like an Alabama politician running for office trying to appeal to the 'We don't need no educational reform' crowd. Remember, I've lived in that state for many a year, and the appalling *lack* of care, quality, etc in the public system there is largely *because* of the pathetic lack of funds in many a system. I mean, when you have teachers paying for the students school supplies out of their own already meager paychecks in many of the poorer counties in that state, ... please spare me some unsubstantiated 'study' that says otherwise. Rascal, You know why I asked "What kind of schooling did you get? Public or home schooling? Thought so. ... And yet all you folks turned out to be rather smart individuals, hmmm?"? It was because I thought that, apparently either because of, or in spite of, the public education you got, you turned out to be a pretty smart individual. Apparently your experience of the school system wasn't so rosy. Ok, point taken. But, for one thing, you can't use that to say "Gee, I was so dumb because of my sucky public school experience, that I got sucked up into some cult". (Sorry, but I don't go for the 'we were too dumb and brainless' reasoning for getting involved with TWI either, but that is another thread) I went to Huntsville High (public school) and it was pretty good and had a good number of quality teachers, and it had its twits as well. And from what I hear nowadays, its still a good school overall. There are schools in northern Madison county that are even better, as my brother sends his daughter to one. And it too is well funded by the people in that district, again shooting down the money up, scores down 'formula'. --> So maybe all this shows that it isn't the 'system' that is broke wholesale, but that there are areas that seriously needs to be fixed. And sorry but I don't go for this lie that 'the system doesn't want to be fixed', as part of that system includes teachers, a good number of them who do care and are fighting not only various pig headed administrators, but also a good many parents who are also part of the problem, who don't instill within their kids morals and ethics and learning that they live in a world with other people, but expect the educational 'system' to instill it for them, ranging from starting their days with prayer to teaching them not to bully other students or get into fights or other disciplinary problems, much of what should have been done by the parents to begin with. (And I know you don't fit into this description) Well, for every teacher that says that, I'd be willing to bet you even $money$ that there are at least 2-3 who are more resolved to solve the problems and provide a good education for your kids. Cindy! here on Greasespot is one such individual I wager. So its up to *everybody*; parents, teachers, administrators, students, and taxpayers, to make the 'system' work. And no, I don't have to be a parent to know this, as this is (or should be) basic knowledge to all concerned. And it does concern us all.

Garth makes a long pass to--- oh wait, I'm sorry, what game did you say we were playing again? :D-->

I knew that this question was gonna come up, altho' I'm glad that you aren't using this for the purpose for the brush-off of "Since you don't have children, you can't say" song-and-dance. No, Steve, I don't have children. And my frame of reference is based on talking to parents, and teachers from both sides of the aisle, as well as hearing all kinds of tirades about/against public schools ranging from parents having a lot of frustration with inept and abusive teachers/administrators in those schools, to Libertarian-leaning, anti-NEA, Neil Boortz wannabees squawking about 'gummint' schools "brainwashing our children to goosestep to the State", to public schools being somehow associated with the end times in preparing the kids for The One World Government with all the athiest and New Age anti-Christian programs, to ... yadayadayada. So I hope you excuse my George Aar-like skepticism voiced here. Actually, contrary to what might first appear, I for one am glad that home schooling is doing as well as it is, as for one thing, it is (or should be) giving the public schools the kick in the a** that it needs to deal with its very real problems that is leading parents to pull their kids out of public schools like they are. And I am also dead set against whatever public school teachers and administrators taking legal action against home schools in general, simply because they are providing effective competition to public education. Now if the parents/home schoolers *aren't* doing their jobs in educating the kids, then yes, legal action should be taken. My concern is that public education, as a whole, is in danger of being blamed in such a wholesale way, and dismantled as a result. I know that there are some who believe that public education should not be done by the government, be it because of some ((cough)) 'interpretation' of the Constitution, or because of some paranoid fear of 'they are taking my parental rights away from me!', or for some other mickey mouse reasoning. I disagree. I am for public education. For good, quality, disciplined, tax paid public education. Along with the same quality and disciplined private and home schooled education. Just as long as it is good education.