Catcup

Women were intimidated into silence then, just like they are today. It's a little easier to speak out today than it was 20 or even 10 years ago. The issues regarding sexual assault are always difficult for the victim to discuss. One of the reasons is it is a very personal crime, and another is that women are routinely portrayed by defense counsel as having "asked for it." It's a routine defense strategy. Having to prosecute the crime is like being raped all over again, only in public. So many people fail to even report the crime. It is much easier to try to limp on alone rather than to face being traumatized repeatedly. It is the very rare, brave woman who has enough courage and surrounding support to actually press charges. That's why I have immense respect for women like Fern Allen and January Parker. And, for men like Paul Allen who had the guts to not drop his wife and run away from her, but support her and face the true villain and take him down, no matter what. There was also no internet available when VPW was alive. Victims of TWI were much more isolated and alone than they are today. Thanks again to Paul Allen and WayDale, and TransChat before him, and Pawtucket with GreaseSpotCafe, we can connect, find support, and we will not be easily intimidated and silenced any more.

quote name='WhiteDove' date='Jul 30 2007, 10:41 AM' post='353920'] So you are saying you evaluated her as a qualified doctor at the time of the event? No, I did not say that. I am not a doctor, nor have I ever claimed to be a doctor. However, you don't have to be a doctor to make an observation as a trained professional. I can also look back on incidents that happened in the past, with the added education and training I have now, and more accurately evaluate what was going on. or were you present as an eyewitness? That is verifying Yes, I did say that. That's proving or confirming (an allegation). Did you do a toxicology test if not you can not say with any proof that she was drugged that may be your opinion and you can believe as you wish that does not verify anything as fact. No, I did not do a toxicology test, and yes, it is my opinion. But it is my opinion as a person who is trained to make such observations, and not as a "friend" supporting a "friend." And if you were sure of your diagnosis ... I did not make a diagnosis, nor did I claim to diagnose anyone. That is a loaded, legal word. I made observations. Which is another loaded, legal word. I am giving my opinion as a trained and educated professional with experience. Which is also loaded and legal. I have not said anything on this board that I would not be willing to have quoted back to me in a court of law. ...shouldn't you have addressed the issue at that point? Rather than chaulking it up to a misunderstanding of craigs words... Like many people back then (and some even today), at the time, I was not willing to believe the spiritual overseer in charge would make such a statement. And yet you stayed around and supported this group for how many more years. One has to ask why did you not verify your account at that time. Yes, I stayed around and supported this group for many more years, under the misguided notion I might be able to help fix the problems I saw. I have to ask what do you mean, why did I not "verify my account at the time?" Your a Corps grad you were supposed to be doing what the word says if you had knowledge of this behavior you should have taken it to whatever level you needed to rectify it. What makes you think I didn't? You also have to understand that at the time, I and others like me, felt those above me surely had to have my best interest at heart. I was taught and believed, that if I noticed error in those persons, it was MY mistake, and I should look at it as me misunderstanding what I saw or heard. The Way Corps was taught, fed, nourished, believed and lived by that code. We were taught that is what the Word says to do. I took everything to my overseers that I felt was questionable. Example: Another roommate I observed was exhibiting some pretty bizarre, depressive, self-destructive behavior, and was constantly in tears or trying to hide them. When I finally got her alone and asked her what was wrong, she said "I am being screwed by guys." When I asked her if she meant figuratively or literally, she said "Literally". I took this immediately to her in-residence branch coordinator, who said he would handle this. Result: She was immediately moved out of my room and given another roommate. I was instructed not to talk to her about it any more. In the Corps, obedience was demanded, because, we were told, that was what the Word demanded. I obeyed. I watched her grow more and more isolated. However, I had to "obey the Word." My leadership knew best. Example: While walking through some isolated rooms in the upper regions of Kenyon hall, I found two married people lying on the floor behind a closed door in one of these rooms, locked in passionate embrace. The problem? They are not married to each other. And they are both prominent leaders. I closed the door and immediately took this to my overseer, who took it to the Corps Coordinator. Result: The next thing I know, my twig coordinator accuses me of having sex with my fiance (which was not true) and told me to mind my own business. And the incident with VPW. Who else am I supposed to take it to to rectify it? Did you not read that I confronted Victor Paul Wierwille himself? When I asked him what had happened to her on his motor coach when he came to SC to visit the WOWs, he thundered and blustered and yelled and told me my sister "just couldn't handle the WOW field." The man intimidated me and made me feel like a worm for even asking the question. I'd like to see exactly what YOU would have done at the time, standing in front of the man you truly believed was "THE Man of God over the entire world for our day and time." Example: In 1982 and 1983 I confronted my department manager on staff at HQ. And at placements meetings in 1983, in the BRC, I confronted Emogene Allen, Bill Weingarner, and Donna Martindale all at the same time. Result: Walter Cummins was denied his request for my presence on the research team, and I was offerred a job cleaning toilets at Der Veg. Don Wierwille made a decision based lies fed to him by Auntie Em, that if I missed one day of scrubbing said toilets, that I would be fired from staff. Rather than accept that staff position and the conditions prescribed, which were based on a pack of lies Emogene Allen propounded and they all swallowed, my husband and I refused on principle to stay on as staff at HQ. So Cummins not only did not get me on the research team, he also lost my husband. I called the man who would be my region coordinator on the field to try to discuss what happened, and he refused to discuss it with me. We returned to Chicago, and I tried to warn our immediate overseers and Limb Coordinator that there was something critically wrong at The Way International Headquarters at the Trustee level. We were then blackballed among the entire limb and region. I repeatedly took issues I saw to the top. When I got too close to the truth I was marginalized, intimidated, sent on a wild goose chase, or defamed. When I finally got apologies for some things, these people, two of them TRUSTEES, went back on their word and back to their old habits. I tried for two decades to fix the place, confronting people at the cabinet and trustee level, found it hopelessly corrupt, and left. I'd like to ask... who did YOU CONFRONT?

The fact is, VPW may be gone, but the first person testimony of those who he harmed IS STILL AROUND, AND WILL BE FOR DECADES TO COME. It is that testimony that people choose to either believe or ignore. I think you ignore it to your own peril, and to the degradation of those VPW et al victimized.

Re read the post, Oldies, it's not a statement. It's a question. Designed to get you to evaluate your own thinking and values in light of the truth of what happened to these women. Sorry, I refuse to put those two men on the same level. "They"? That just might depend on who you talk to within the organization. So far they have allowed for a variety of opinion.

I have PayPal and I don't recall signing away a lifetime commitment. PayPal is simply a safe way of paying someone quickly, or receiving payments from them, or sending money to another person online. It's an agreement that allows you to transfer funds from the bank account of your choice into an account with PayPal. Then it allows PayPal to debit your PayPal account WHEN YOU SAY THEY CAN, in order to pay for a purchase you make on line. You can transfer funds from your brick & mortar bank checking or savings account, into your PayPal account. Then when you win a bid on eBay, or see something on line you want to purchase, you can hit the PayPal button and PayPal automatically debits your PayPal account and pays the seller immediately. Or if you are selling something, and they buyer has a PayPal account, as soon as they hit the PayPal button, the money is transferred into your PayPal account. It makes for smooth, easy transactions and is relatively safe. Yes, "Holy Grail" purchasers, with one exception I ran into, were the most honest, swift, and dependable of purchasers As far as I know, you can close out your account with PayPal anytime you want to. It's also the easiest way I found to pay my sellers fees to eBay.

That pretty much describes the experience of a lot of women who went in to TWI and were later chewed up and spit out.

It's "against the rules" to go to someone who has already listed an item up for bid at a certain price, and then ask for the price to be discounted to them because they have purchased from you in the past. You are well within your rights to discount the shipping, but if you did anything more than that, they could bounce you both right off the board.

"Didn't have the guts"?????????????? Maybe she was lucky it was Craig she walked away from. Maybe she was lucky she could walk at the time. My sister said no to VPW and he went out of his way to ruin her life. It's not as simple as you would like to believe it is.

Those are all things I still believe. However, I did not learn them in PFAL. I learned them in The Washington Avenue Baptist Church. They were also reinforced to me in a Methodist church. And again in a Pentecostal church. And again in a Jesus movement. Now, those were good old days.

Watch making deals outside of eBay with people who contact you from finding you on eBay. eBay has rules about it--look them up. I think it can get you banned or suspended. It has also caused some people to fall prey to thieves. I would encourage anyone thinking of buying or selling to read everything on the site they can. It's a pretty helpful place and safe for the most part. The rules are there for a reason.

First of all, thank you. Hopefully I can clarify for you what I believe here. I agree with this statement. God is God and can reach you anywhere, even in the depths of hell. I believe God reached us in TWI, I just believe that He was trying to get us OUT of it, not continue our involvement. The good I experienced in TWI had to do with individual people and the purity of their hearts and intentions. Usually this was among my peer group or people for whom I was responsible as a leader, and rarely, someone higher up in the leadership structure. The good I found came from God and the people, and NOT from the structure of TWI, not from the organization of TWI. That part had long become hopelessly corrupt, and I for years battled people who were hell bent on keeping that structure in place. The role PFAL played in your life may not be the role it played in the lives of others on this board. Just as parts of that class may have changed your life for the better, parts of that class changed many other peoples lives for the worse. It gave people a reason to doubt their own judgement. It gave people a reason to silence their conscience. It gave people a reason to believe they couldn't spiritually survive without the "Teacher," the teaching, and the organization. It caused many to turn their allegience from God to a man, and to an organization made by man for his own purpose. So while you and many others may see that part of what you learned as pivotal in a positive influence in your life, it was the destruction of the lives of countless others. Agreed, in some instances. In many others, it was a blissful deception. Good. They should. Like I said before, I believe God can reach us in the depths of hell, but He is trying to lead us out of it. I have seen many post about this over the past 10 years on WD and GSC. Several posters believe the good accomplished by VPW outweighed the evil he and his organization wrought, they themselves got a lot out of their involvement, their lives were changed in a positive way, and if a few people got hurt along the way, then, well, that's life. Too bad. All the rest must surely be people exaggerating. It is THAT attitude I detest, and it is that attitude I challenge, because it is that attitude that in its very nature, suggests that the sacrifice of a few virgins was worth what they got out of it. Those who have been around a while and are reading this surely recall right now the names of more than a few posters over the years who have expressed this sentiment. I wholeheartedly agree. I attribute any godliness and goodness to God and association with His people, and NOT to my association with TWI as an organization or in any of it's classes, seminars, books, requirements, or programs. God worked in people around me before, during, and after my involvement with TWI. I for one, refuse to give them credit for anything but robbing people's lives. Because for the most part, that's what they eventually did, regardless of how the organization began or the intent with which it started. I agree.

No, that is not what I meant. I can verify much more than what you insinuate. This is NOT, I repeat NOT me "believing what she told you." I know M. I, first-hand, know not only her and Rick, but several of the people she mentions in her story. I am part of what happened to her. I watched her change over that time period from the happy person I knew into someone who was more and more withdrawn, depressed, and confused by what happened to her. There's much more I am not going to say about it, to protect her privacy. This is not an account of an incident I "accepted at face value." Please don't tell me you are equating M's account of what happened to her with this woman in the Duke rape trial. There is no comparison whatsoever of M's life and the life of the person who did that. Are you saying M lied about VPW the way Crystal Gail Magnum lied about the Duke athletes? You are comparing M, who was drugged and raped, with a man who is accused of dogfighting? I am not choosing to believe M's story just because I was a "friend" or roommate. It is based on a deeper evaluation of the totality of what I observed. Here's what I can verify for you as: 1.) Someone with first hand knowledge of M and several of the people mentioned in M's account 2.) Someone professionally trained and educated to spot physical, verbal, emotional, and sexual abuse in victims 3.) Someone with first-hand knowledge of dealing with and counseling such victims 4.) Someone who has recovered from rape myself M was identified as potential prey. She was groomed and unknowingly prepared. She was pimped by Cathy Oriard. She was drugged. She was raped. She was used against her will by a man she was told and believed was the "Man of God of the entire world." She was devastaed emotionally, physically, psychologically, and financially. And her life will never be the same. I understand that there are some people who simply cannot believe that VPW actually did these heinous things. I am sorry you are having such a hard time with this, but he did these things. He ruined peoples lives, used them, and threw them away like so much trash when he was done, because he felt he was entitled to. Here's another clue for you. VPW also tried to do this to my own 17 year old, virginal sister, and when she resisted, he ruined her life. I and my parents were left to deal with the fallout of the damage he caused. When I confronted him, he blustered, stormed, intimidated, and lied straight to my face. Here's another clue. A member of VPW's own family has admitted to me that although they at first found these things difficult to believe, they now understand, from me, how it in fact happened. You're welcome.

What WW said. Thanks.

It's one thing to speak in order to please yourself and what helps you. It's totally different to insinuate you are speaking for God to my conscience. It's frankly delusional on your part. And you don't think it's a personal attack on your part to insinuate people here are victims who need to admit it was their own fault they were deceived and to dump a guilt trip-- whether you say you intend to or not--- on people YOU DON"T EVEN KNOW?

Just wanted you to see that again and think about what you said. Pretty audacious to assume YOU are speaking for GOD to my conscience. Like I said. Self-righteous doesn't go over too good herel. Go sell Mrs. Church Lady to someone who will believe you.

Sorry, No. I don't need you to explain to me what I am feeling. Nor do I need you to quote me the Bible. I had enough of that in TWI, thank you very much. What I am feeling is frustration at someone who has no idea who I am or what I have done telling me what I should do or should have done. You have no idea. You seem to be implying I need to? Coulda fooled me. You seem to believe that people here have not admitted their mistakes, kiddo. Maybe you don't realize this, but you come off awfully preachy and self-righteous. In case you haven't noticed, preachy and self-righteous doesn't go over well here. I know of several people on this thread who could teach YOU more about THAT than you would care to know.

So it's not doctrine to pull the beam out of your own eye before pointing out the mote in someone elses? Maybe it should be.

Take responsibility for getting involved in a cult, which is by its very nature deceptive? I think most everyone here admits they were duped, except for those who never fail in their allegience to VP et al I think most everyone here, at least those who have been out for some time, have already assessed what they could have done differently. It's easy to be glib when you're using 20/20 hindsight. And if you think YOU are too clever to ever fall for another trap, you've already fallen into one, my friend. Milgram pointed that out in the 1960's.

LOL

Good for you. Let me introduce myself. Nah, I won't. It would take too long. Suffice it to say I have been there and done that. Maybe you should teach doctrine, eh? Sounds like you could've saved us all a load of trouble if you had stuck around and reproved us all back then.

No problem. It takes a while to learn all the bells & whistles on this site.

Get To Whom Correct. That means, the Gospels weren't written "to" me, so I can pick and choose what I want to apply from that period.

Rhino-- Things like that sometimes tend to sell better in one big lot rather than a year at a time, unless you are doing a tape library. You could do well selling the entire lot of Way Mags, especially those particular years before VP's death. They seem to sell well. I did the tape library one year at a time. I did test each tape to make sure it was still good, but I sold each year for anywhere from $60 to $90 each, and my parents and I both had the entire library from 1969 through 1995. Sold them all except for about 1992 onward, nobody wanted LCM, go figure. Something that does exceptionally well, are tapes of meetings that generally did not go out over the SNS. Like some of the early family camps, special seminars, and the like, back in the very early 70's.

Hey, put it up there for 9.99 and see if you get a nibble. Or put it up there for $25 for Buy It Now. If nobody offers to buy it you can always relist at a lower price. Like I said, you might get an offer on it for a lower price, but if there are several people out there who all want it, no telling how high it will go-- whatever price they are willing to pay. And if what you make helps you make ends meet, put a roof over your head, a meal on your table, or a few extra bucks for a dinner and a movie out with your family, it's all good, in my opinion. It's more than twi ever did for you.