Catcup

Hey, did you just read that? Chas said: "They even wanted to know what we were thinking about when we had sex - how we did it - etc." Thanks for sharing Chas. I believe it is extremely important to keep the information out in public from first hand sources who can document the dehumanizing, invasive treatment TWI is capable of. When it's not kept out there, people forget how evil these people are. Or others who may never have experienced it find it hard to believe. You people who had these a$$holes like BT, L & C P, MW, and others in your personal stuff, speak up. Tell them exactly what it was like. There are people out there who have no idea what you went through at the hands of these friggin monsters. "Tear out our hearts--- and they will fatally wound you." Hans Scholl

TWI wants to say that all of the power is in the resurrection..... But it is soooooooooooo obvious that they have failed to see the power of love. "Tear out our hearts--- and they will fatally wound you." Hans Scholl

I'm sure if Jesus bodily walked the face of the earth today, nobody in TWI would recognize him. Hell, they'd probably lead the way to crucify him. "Tear out our hearts--- and they will fatally wound you." Hans Scholl

Why did they want all that private information? Why, the better to blackmail you with. Generally, the more they have on you.......well, the more they can control you. And if you aren't submissive enough to give them the information they are asking for, then they know they won't be able to control you and they used that to get rid of you. "Tear out our hearts--- and they will fatally wound you." Hans Scholl

Leave it to TWI to strain at a gnat, swallow a camel, and miss the entire point of love and compassion. "Tear out our hearts--- and they will fatally wound you." Hans Scholl

If Sunesis is still around from time to time, perhaps she can speak up on what she is privvy to, having been closely associated with Donna. I do know that Donna and Rosie Lie claimed to me and a small group of WC leadership while we were at Rome City for a leadership conference, that she and Rosie Lie took frequent vacations together at Rome City to "get away" from HQ together, and they loved the suite so much they get the same one every time. Geek and I stayed in that same suite from time to time as well, and I guarantee you there is only ONE very small double bed in it. For the life of me I cannot figure out why two grown women would want to sleep that close together. For a week at a time, too. "Tear out our hearts--- and they will fatally wound you." Hans Scholl

Respect her what? What privacy did we people in TWC have when it came to our private lives? Having to give account of our finances, our marriage, our families, our children, to justify what medication we were prescribed and for what, get permission to go on vacations and with whom we could stay, and even turn in "intimate" schedules regarding our sex lives....... This woman is owed nothing by me, or anyone else who suffered under her and her husband's Nazi-like regime. She should be subjected to the SAME investigations and scrutiny she and her husband put others through. Anything else is hypocritical. But then again, what do you expect from a group of controlling anal hypocrites? "Tear out our hearts--- and they will fatally wound you." Hans Scholl

It's worth saying again, so I'll say it again: Loy Craig Martindale declared regarding homosexuals, that "...some of us would gladly execute you!" What is it we call those who embrace that view? How many here feel these people have no right to life itself? Or to even conduct their lives in peace and privacy? Come, show yourselves for what you are. Name yourself. Now. If we fail to learn the lessons of history, we are in danger of repeating the worst humanity can commit against itself-- and we will deserve what we get. And now, I'm done. "Tear out our hearts--- and they will fatally wound you." Hans Scholl

I won't go picking at nits with you. Women and blacks do NOT have the access to equal education, equal employment, equal compensation, and equal housing that the laws on the books say we have a right to, and are underrepresented in the areas I mentioned before. And if only eight women in a field of 500 isn't underrepresentation, then I don't know what is. It is a blatant example that women are simply not given the opportunities for advancement men are given. We have to fight for what we get, regardless. And gays have even less access because there are currently fewer laws that protect their rights. And that is the main point of this thread. You either come down on the side of human rights equally for all, Or you can get in line behind all the other neanderthals and tyrants of history who felt it was appropriate to deny other human beings their dignity and human rights, enslave them, and even deny them the right to exist. I don't care about all the other distracting drivel and smokescreens. You can hide behind whatever argument you want to choose. It really comes down to that. You are either for equal human rights or you are not. "Tear out our hearts--- and they will fatally wound you." Hans Scholl

And by the way... As for women in the United States having the same rights as men... On the books, we are supposed to have the same rights. In practice, we do not. Just like African Americans who were actually given the right to vote on March 30th of 1870 in the fifteenth ammendment, it was not until January 23, 1964 that the twenty-fourth ammendment stepped in and forbade the poll taxes that actually prevented blacks from exercising rights given to them nearly a hundred years previously. Um, I believe that's what all that civil rights business was in the sixties........ Women STILL do not receive the same pay for the same work a man does, nor does she have the same opportunities for advancement. Witness only a simple handful of women CEOs in the Fortune 500 Companies. We are also STILL underrepresented in political offices and elsewhere. My point? This country has a very long way to go in order to correct it's problems with HUMAN RIGHTS. "Tear out our hearts--- and they will fatally wound you." Hans Scholl

LG: As I said before, this is a human rights issue. You either believe every human being has the right to be treated with dignity and respect, equal to the next person, or you believe they do not. Do you believe that homosexuals do not deserve to be treated with dignity and respect? Do you believe they should not have the same right to protect their own financial interests and health issues the same as you do? Do you believe they do not have the right to live their lives peacefully and privately? Do they not have the same right to pursue "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" according to the United States Constitution? In your eyes is liberty and justice only for some? And my mention of woman to woman marriage was in reference to Trefor's point that in a civil union involving the same sex, the participants do not necessarily need to be homosexual, but two heterosexuals could have a civil union in order to protect their interests. I simply cited for Trefor an anthropological illustration of another culture which did the same thing for the same reason. I am sorry that was not clear to you. "Tear out our hearts--- and they will fatally wound you." Hans Scholl

Tref: In response to your comment: "Nor would such an allowance require that two people who are of the same sex be gay, any heterosexual who wished to enter into such a marriage would be just as entitled to marry a member of the same sex as gay people are entitled to marry a person of the opposite sex." Among the Yoruba, Asante, Zulu, Xhosa, and Masai peoples of African culture, there was such an arrangement. Woman to woman marriage, although prrobably not a modal pattern, took place in these male-dominated societies. Because this arrangement was socio-economic in nature, woman to woman marriage did not imply a sexual relationship. This relationship was a means to obtain greater authority as an individual, and as a form of economic investment. If a woman acquired profits from her own efforts in agriculture, artisanship & trade, or inheritance, she would lose these to her husband if she married a man. If she married a woman, she would invest them as bridewealth, therefore keeping her own money. There were also other advantages, such as control of a production unit or an heir to political office. Had nothing to do with sex, and everything to do with keeping and protecting what she had earned herself, and elevating social status. "Tear out our hearts--- and they will fatally wound you." Hans Scholl [This message was edited by Catcup on March 10, 2004 at 13:16.] [This message was edited by Catcup on March 10, 2004 at 13:26.]

Thank you for leaving non-consensual sex out of the discussion. By its very definition it is rape, which is always wrong. Polygamy as was/is practiced by some in our country has been oppressive to women. By and large the society in the United States recognizes such polygamy as oppressive to women and therefore illegal. There are other societies where polygyny is practiced as a matter of course and is accepted widely. However, they tend to be in countries in which women are also subjected to genital mutilation and other oppressive practices. There are genetic problems with consensual incestual relationships. Whether one uses contraceptives or not is a non-issue. All forms of contraception have been known to fail except for abstinence. For that reason alone, if you accept the responsibility of having sex, you accept the responsibility of having children born from the union. And if the children born from that union have an enormous risk of being born with monstrous and possibly unsurvivable genetic anomalies, it is unfair to the child. "Tear out our hearts--- and they will fatally wound you." Hans Scholl

Notinkansas: Yes, education is dangerous. Education is dangerous to tyranny. That's why tyrants throughout history burned books and went into universities and killed the professors when they wanted total control. My good friend, the late professor Dr. Arthur Voobus escaped being assassinated because the Lutheran Church spirited him out of Estonia before he was murdered. Many other professors lost their lives at the University the day he left. "Tear out our hearts--- and they will fatally wound you." Hans Scholl

The issue regarding the scenario I proposed is this: The gay couple does not have the same OPTION as the straight couple. That is an inequity. Zix, my friend, we are on the same page on the civil union. But where the church is concerned, the government has no right to tell a church who they decide and decide not to accept into their organizations, or what to believe. And as human beings, living in the wonderful country that we do, we can investigate the beliefs of relgious organizations and choose the one that we feel lines up with our beliefs. "Tear out our hearts--- and they will fatally wound you." Hans Scholl

Happy Birthday, Brother! Best Fishes!

Having at one time fully embraced TWI's doctrine of hate, I have gone through extensive examinations of my views on this area. Over the past several years, I have mentioned what I call "hard hat areas" of construction/reconstruction that I have in my life due to the careful and time-consuming reevaluation of everything I had formerly blindly accepted from the mouth of herr Wierwille and his bitch Martindale. This is one of them. I am officially taking down the yellow tape and removing the orange barrels. We need to carefully learn the lessons of history in order to not repeat them. For several hundred years, Africans were viewed as sub-human and savage, undeserving of the same rights as "civilized" human beings. Unfortunately, we still have problems today because even in a country that supposedly embraced principles of Enlightenment, there are still people in American society that still believe African-Americans are savage, subhuman, and incapable of civilized behavior. We call these people ignorant and prejudiced. In the previous century, horrendous crimes were carried out against another race that was also viewed as sub-human. Another entire government decided that not only were these people undeserving of the same rights and privileges as their own citizens, but these people were undeserving of life itself. Unfortunately, there are still organizations that exist for the sole purpose of bringing back that defeated regime in order to fulfill its original purpose of Jewish genocide. We call those people Nazis. Loy Craig Martindale declared regarding homosexuals, that "...some of us would gladly execute you!" What is it we call those who embrace that view? How many here feel these people have no right to life itself? Or to even conduct their lives in peace and privacy? Come, show yourselves for what you are. Name yourself. Now. If we fail to learn the lessons of history, we are in danger of repeating the worst humanity can commit against itself-- and we will deserve what we get. "Tear out our hearts--- and they will fatally burn you." Hans Scholl [This message was edited by Catcup on March 09, 2004 at 17:45.]

When it comes to issues of the church and homosexuality, as another poster previously mentioned, that is where the line is drawn between the church and the state. I believe the government has no right to interfere with the church. Unless it breaks the law. "Tear out our hearts--- and they will fatally wound you." Hans Scholl

BTW Straight couples who are unmarried are not forced to take advantage of a marriage contract. But they have the option. It is an option they have, as human beings. It is an option, a right. Gays do not have that option, that right. "Tear out our hearts--- and they will fatally wound you." Hans Scholl

Ayyup, there's a typo in there, but I get what you are talking about. So.......Zix, with all due respect, What you are saying is, regardless of the fact that homosexuals are homosapiens, they do not deserve the same human rights as other human beings? They don't deserve the right to have the same legal contract you do that allows you the right to determine care for your spouse in the event of a catastrophic illness? Straight couples have the right to enter into a contract that avoids the problem. Gay couples are denied that right. And as I said before, this is not the only scenario. It is an issue of human rights and especially the dignity that each human being should be afforded. "Tear out our hearts--- and they will fatally wound you." Hans Scholl

I've always gotten in trouble for sticking my neck out and offending people, so I guess this is nothing new but may surprise a good many people. Gay rights is a human rights issue. I may not agree with their lifestyle and choices, but I don't agree with a lot of choices and lifestyles of a hell of a lot of straight people I have come into contact with. But they should not be denied their civil rights as a human being. Every human being in the United States of America deserves the same rights as the next person. I am particularly concerned about such civil rights for gays. In the following scenario, is this fair and just? A gay couple has been in a loving relationship of a good many years... say, most of their adult lives. One of the men has been isolated from his family and they have not spoken in decades. He suddenly falls deathly ill and is on life support and there is no directive for DNR. Who is more likely to know this man's wishes? His lover whom he has lived with day in and day out for most of his adult life? Or the family he hasn't seen or even spoken to in decades? Who gets to make the decisions regarding his treatment? The legal next of kin, who have neither spoken to him in years nor have any ideas regarding his wishes. People who may or may not act in his best interest, or honor his wishes. Is that just? NO. Makes a good argument for a living will, but the facts are, too many people don't have one. This couple has the right to have their union recognized for more reasons than I can count. This is just one of them. To deny that right is to infringe on their rights as human beings In my life, for the sake of my own conscience, I am compelled to come down on the side of human rights. Always. "Tear out our hearts---and they will fatally wound you." Hans Scholl

Thanks Oaks. Wondered why that was.

TWI scams: Telling the apprentice 6th Way Corps that when they graduated they would have a bonafide, recognized bachelor's degree from The Way College of Emporia which would be an accredited institution. Then later in our first year in residence, when they told us that The Way Corps was for training TWIG LEADERS. When I signed up for The Way Corps, TWI represented to me that I would be training for upper leadership responsibilities that I had not yet held, and that when I graduated, I would hold an accredited degree. TWI misrepresented The Way Corps program specifically to those of us who went into the 6th Corps, revealing only AFTER we were already in residence, that we would NOT have a recognized accredited degree, and that they were training us to be twig leaders. And speaking of misrepresentation, with all due respect to the Cafe management, I have way more than 75 posts and did not "register" June 13 2002. I crossed over from WayDale. Whenvever that was. Whatever. [This message was edited by Catcup on March 07, 2004 at 13:20.]

I "found God" long before my involvement with TWI and just prior to my involvement, had enjoyed a closer relationship with Him than I had ever known. When I first became involved with TWI, I felt my relationship with God was enriched. Then my relationship with God changed as I studied "The Word" and "The Word" became more and more important than this closeness with God I had once enjoyed. When I mentioned to someone how I missed my special close relationship with God I had before I came to The Way, they told me that relationship had to be counterfeit because outside TWI there WAS no relationship with God. By the time I ended my relationship with TWI, the God they then professed allegience to had nothing in common with the God they originally introduced me to. I feel now they have ruined my relationship with God and my ability to trust anyone to teach me about God. They ruined my trust. I can't attend and enjoy any kind of "fellowship" or "Sunday service" without a great deal of mistrust about what I am hearing, and the motivations of the speakers. Instead of finishing school, I was encouraged to go into The Way Corps. (After having been thrown out of The Way Corps after having dedicated my entire adult life to it, the person who dismissed me seriously asked me why I hadn't gone to medical school!) In addition, over 50% of my income went toward abundant sharing and otherwise supporting programs, REQUIRED gifts to leadership, and REQUIRED events, and REQUIRED classes and materials in order to stay involved with this cult. As a result, my retirement was stolen from me by fraud and duress and at this time in my life I am trying to finish college instead of having already spent 30 years in a profession. Had I never run into TWI my life would have been totally different. I wish I'd never met them.

Hey, Zix, you asked: "Society would lose ___________ if everyone were heterosexual, so homosexuality does serve a vital function." How 'bout Queer Eye For The Sraight Guy!