Catcup

If it is the collected recordings of Bishop K.C Pillai, both Howard and Dorthea were aware of it. This book on Orientalisms is basically a transcript of when the Bishop came to HQ in the late 60's and sat with VPW and they went verse by verse through the bible and Pillai explained every orientalism. It was in an Air-Force blue hardbound book, and there was one at every Limb Headquarters in the US and one at each root locale. This book was not for sale to the general public. However, I hear that at some point it was given to some Way Corps. But certainly not while I was in-residence. We could go to the library and use it, but could not check it out.

Each and both, of course!

And possibly insanity? Ah, but I'm not a DOKTOR!

"If anything that Wierwille taught was true, it will be arrived at by independent study." Exactly.

Um, yeah, I do. Because the scriptures do not say "all expounded scripture is God-breathed." It says "all scripture." To hold any thing or any person or their writings or their sayings on that same level or above, is putting them on a throne on which God never designed for them to sit. And to get back to that "Don't toss the baby out with the bathwater" thing... Not only is the baby too big to get sucked down the drain, but You might find that all you tossed out was a bucket of toads...

Congratulations Georgio! God bless, keep, and guide you and your family.

Tell me, OM, Do you, too, in fact believe that Power For Abundant Living is God-breathed?

Georgio I cannot imagine how intimidating and confusing it must have been to be a child at the Rome City campus. I am sorry for all that you went through there. You did not deserve one bit of it, and none of it was your fault. Make up your mind that you will not carry on that legacy, but be a part of the solution in your own family. One more RC incident... When my daughter was just around 18 months old, our family visited Rome City for a Sunday night service. I had never left my girl with a babysitter of any sort at that time besides family, and I wanted to ease her into the idea of being left at the Children's fellowship. So, I took her to the Children's fellowship area early and wanted to take her in the room myself, and show her around, describe what the fellowship would be like, and introduce her to the people that would be in charge of her. I knew if I did that, she would then be comfortable and enjoy herself. Instead, I was stopped at the door, and told they would take my child right there and I was not allowed inside. I told the woman that my daughter had never been left with a babysitter before and had never attended a children's fellowship, and that she would be more comfortable if I introduced her to it first. No dice. They took her right from me then and there, turned me away at the door, and insisted she would be ok. HA! They got what they deserved. When the service was over, someone was sent to fetch me right from my seat. I was taken outside, where the woman who had so rudely snatched her from me was frantic, harried, and pushing my screaming crying baby in a baby swing. Evidently, my kittencup was unconsolable after I was sent away, and screamed and cried the entire time, making such a disturbance they had to take her outside. Well, no $hit. I tried to tell them what I needed to do for her to make her comfortable. The poor kid thought she had been kidnapped. They took her straight from my arms and sent me away while she was in tears. What idiots they were at Rome City.

I hate to put my own daughter's personal stuff up here, but you need to know it's not just the leadership that was offensive in this way.

I, too am new to this particular thread. I spent several hours this morning looking through it. While I was never a part of any "initiation" ceremony (tongue in cheek or otherwise) that Evan described, had I personally known what was going on, I would have never put up with it. And I know several men who if they had known of a father sexually abusing his child, would personally have escorted him out behind the barn and beaten him within an inch of his life before handing him over to the authorities. TWI was an interesting mix. Depending on where your assignment was and who your leadership was, there are a variety of contradictory experiences, all of them VALID. There is a lot of mention of leadership physically and/or sexually abusing children in their fellowship. I am here to tell you that it also happened the other way around. When I first moved to NW Indiana, and I did not know anyone there, I had to leave my daughter (age 3 at the time) with a believer I had never met. The next time I needed a babysitter and I was going to leave her at this woman's house, my daughter was reluctant for me to leave. She had never behaved that way before, and I was concerned. But I "trusted" the believer. How wrong I was. When my husband brought my daughter home from the babysitter, and I questioned my little girl about how the evening went, she began crying and told me about how the woman sat and watched while her 5 year old son pushed her around all night and eventually knocked her into a table and hurt her head. When I brushed back her hair and looked, her ear was caked, CAKED with BLOOD which had also run down her neck. I called the woman and let her know what I found, and she offered no explanation for why she allowed this to happen. She "had no idea" my daughter was hurt. She admitted she watched her son push her around, and offered no explanation for why she did not intervene. She did not even bother to check my daughter's head for injuries, or to even tell my husband that an incident had occurred when he picked her up. I let the woman have it. I never took my daughter over there again, and she never came to my fellowship, either! She would NOT HAVE BEEN WELCOME. My daughter was also sexually abused by the child of someone in our fellowship. Unlike the previous incident, I left my daughter with a non-Corps woman who I trusted more than anyone else in my branch. I had known her for at least two or more years, and allowed her to babysit my daughter overnight, only because I considered her a trusted friend. This woman had two children, a boy and a girl, several years older than my 6 year old. The next morning after my daughter came home, she had a hickey on her neck! When I asked her how she got it, she was upset and embarassed, and told me that this woman's daughter had done it playing "vampire." I also learned that in that household this woman allowed her children to watch R rated movies that were inappropriate for her own age children, let alone my child. I had considered this woman a trusted friend of mine, but I found out that even after knowing her for several years, there were still things I didn't know about how she ran her household and oversaw her children. And as a good question-asking intrusive Way Corps overseer, I thought I knew. So then this woman learned from me a few things she didn't know about her own kids. I got in her face and I kicked her @$$. Hard. And she learned a few things. She was humiliated, sorry, and honestly made some changes in her life, and tried to make some changes with her kids. I talked with her kids about it, too. They apologized, and everything seemd to be ok after that, but later on, her boy got in trouble several times. The Mom truly made valiant efforts at correcting behaviors, but I think the horse was out of the barn for her kids. We continued our friendship, but I never trusted her with my daughter again. Now more than a decade down the line, recently I ran across a photo of this woman's daughter, and I mentioned how I missed her mom. Then my daughter stood up and told me how she hated that girl. She was finally old enough to tell me that this girl had actually sexually abused her that night. I had actually forgotten the incident till she brought it up when we were looking at the picture. And I learned far more than I knew even then about what actually occurred that night. And I want to kick the woman's @$$ all over again, But she IS STILL IN TWI AND SO ARE HER CHILDREN. So, it isn't just "leadership" doing the abusing. This is a two way street and they also learn it other places than from "leadership" who did it to them. As for TWI "condoning" beating your child senseless, of course they did not "condone" it. They condemned it loudly from the podium. However, it doesn't take a genius to note that many many times, what TWI condemned outwardly on one hand was actually practiced privately with impunity by the other. And yes, I remember a Rock of Ages in the 90's where Donna Dearest came before the entire ministry to "set the record straight" about how to "properly" use the "rod of correction." But there is a strange disconnect regarding the time frame. With reports and examples common among the ministry as early as the 70's that the rod was chronically being misused, why the twenty-year wait? In 1976 or 1977 in Altamonte Springs, FL, I witnessed Bob Moynihan smack a three year old girl on the legs for a good 45 minutes, simply because she had not said hello to me when I said hello to her. I told Moynihan it didn't bother me-- she is just a kid-- I'm not upset she didn't speak to me. Apparently she had an "attitude" problem according to Bob, and he made me stand there while he smacked her little legs for I know at least 45 minutes until she broke down in tears and said hello to me. THIS is the EXAMPLE that the STILL oh-so-revered REVEREND MOYNIHAN set for me as an interim Corps person as to how you handle SOMEONE ELSE'S obstinate child. You make the entire world stand still for an hour while you smack the little legs of a child and bully them into obedience for your own ego. THIS is the man they eventually put in charge of Rome City for years. And yes, when visiting Rome City, I remember being told proudly by the in-residence Indiana Corps (my in-laws in fact) that they were actually told to correct one another's kids even in the presence of their own parents if the parents did not do it first. That was circa late 80's I believe. Even then I thought that was weird and excessive. The straw that broke the camel's back for my participation in TWI was when Josephine Wallace countermanded my instructions to my daughter right in front of me. Who the hell, and I don't care WHAT "program" you are in, has the right to usurp my own authority over my child? It is for that reason I finally left this wretched cult. And, yes, BELIEVE THE CHILDREN!

Ev-- Do tell more.....

The goal of all witnessing is PFAL???? In the bible I read, the goal of all witnessing was to preach Jesus Christ and his resurrection from the dead. The apostles failed to carry out the ministry of reconciliation???? Because they didn't have a class to push???? It seems to me, that they were a grand success. The very fact you KNOW about Jesus Christ was due to HIS impact on this world, not Victor Paul Wierwille's. Credit the apostles for spreading it across the known world at that time. THAT's why you know about Jesus Christ, sir. There is NOTHING in the revealed Word of God that indicates otherwise, and NOTHING in the revealed Word of God that indicates we should give such idolatrous allegience to man's works that you indicate you do. It is idolatrous. PFAL is not the goal of all witnessing. Jesus Christ and the resurrection is. That is the pattern throughout the book of Acts and the church epistles. But I think most everyone here has learned of you, that, to quote your idol: "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." In other words, to debate this issue with a person who is so wrapped up in his idolatry is a complete waste of time and energy.

When I first got into TWI in 1972, my witnessing style was what I felt was a spirit-led testimony. When I saw someone who had a need and they indicated a spiritual hunger, then I told them what God had done for me in my life. -I got loads of results, because the testimony was regarding what God had done for ME and what I knew He could do for them. -I enjoyed witnessing. Then in my apprentice year (74-75), some idiot decided we should go door to door. The results? -They gave us some lame "questionnaire" that had leading questions in it. -We had to map out our city and systematically reach each and every person in it with our "pitch." -I felt like a Jehovah's Witness or a Fuller Brush Salesman. --It took the fun and spontaneity out of witnessing. My first year in-residence in 1975, we took public speaking courses that actually used sales techniques to "sell" a product, which was the PFAL class, rather than tell people what God could do for them. Results? -It took the Spirit of God out of the works and replaced it with sales techniques. -From then on I hated witnessing. I felt like a glorified salesperson hyping a product. What put the icing on the cake for me was during one particular Corps Week, Dr. Wierwille "floated" the idea to us of raising the price of the class from $85.00 to something like $200.00. It was a ridiculous jump. There were no "improvements" or additional "services" that came along with the jump in costs... Nothing at all to justify such an increase... with the explanation that the class was "worth it." That REALLY went over like a lead balloon with me, but enought a$$ki$$ers applauded the "suggestion" by the good (?) doctor (?) that the suggestion was implemented immediately. It was done for no other reason than outright greed, in my opinion. TWI took the Spirit of God out of witnessing and replaced it with their cardboard sales techniques for nothing but filthy lucre.

I've got news for anyone who doesn't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater: The baby is too big to get sucked down the drain. Toss it out. Toss it all out. Then re-examine everything. Why take the word of a man who obviously plagiarized and lost his moral compass? Don't believe it because "Dr. Wierwille taught it." Go beyond him. Exactly where did he get his ideas? Who were his sources? Where did they get their ideas? Go back to the genuine sources and THEN see if the ideas are valid and make your decision. Although I too, learned some good things, met some good people, and did have some beneficial experiences in TWI, I refuse to let previous doctrines rule my beliefs. Toss them all out, and start all over again. If what you learned previously is true, you will discover it again. But this time, you will learn it for YOURSELF, and verify it for YOURSELF from the real sources. And this time you will know that you believe it because you REALLY know that it is true, not because it was part and parcel of a package of plagiarized material from a man too many put too much trust in for too long.

Shaz, yes, he can certainly survive your using him to make a point. And your point is extremely valid. The nuances normally picked up in a face to face conversation are unfortunately missing in cyberspeak, and intentions can easily be misread and misunderstood. I have misread and misunderstood yours, for which I will apologize :)--> But this is a great case in point that posts on line are far from perfect and should not always be taken as absolute fact.

Shaz, if you have a problem with anything Research Geek posted, then you will need to address your comments to him, and on the thread for which it was intended. But in fact "VeePee" did graduate from "Princeton." It was Princeton Theological Seminary. It was, and still is, a decent place to get a degree. Is there a problem with that? And, read the quote. Geek said he was not apologizing for Wierwille. Just wanted to set the facts straight when some folks said he never got a degree. He did in fact get a degree. Neither Geek nor I disagree with the fact that it is definitely a non-accredited degree. Nor do we disagree with the fact that VP exaggerated his credentials and spun his own reputation. We just stated the facts, and do not defend an indefensible person. We need to carefully read what is posted, and not read into things. Geek never defended VP in that post at all. Just gave the facts as he knew them WITHOUT SPINNING THEM. You seem to indicate in your above post that Geek was giving spin to VP's credentials, when in fact this is not the case. I would hope that people give thought to what they post, and the accusations they do make.

Radar I had similar experiences... before WayDale and after-- where the stories I heard were soooooooo outrageous it was obvious to anyone who had been in TWI that they were total fiction. Unfortunately it was hearing those made-up or exaggerated accounts that kept me from believing the truth when I heard it from people who had been there. I know a lot of folks come here for a good laugh. Laughter is good-- and needed. But when it comes to posting things specifically about TWI, we do need to make sure that what we put up on this site and others, has been double-checked and is free of speculation and "spin", just as you said. If we don't, we end up doing innies a disfavor by reinforcing their belief that we can't ever be taken seriously.

The Present Truth: Whatever lie TWI thinks they can get you to accept today.

All postings are absolutely not truthful. I have experience here where a poster accused a 6th Corps research team member of some hurtful activity. Because I personally know both 6th Corps members who were part of the research team, I was intrigued, and inquired of the poster exactly which one was he talking about. This poster took great offense at my question and accused me of trying to attack him in some way, which was false. I simply wanted to know which person he was referring to. Turned out, the person he was talking about was not even a member of the research team at any point in time. He may have been a part of the research fellowship, but that was an entirely different group of people. If his posting had gone unchallenged, and taken as the "gospel" truth, the reputations of two innocent people would have been sulllied and questioned in the eyes of anyone reading that post. So, no, on-line postings should not be taken as the gospel truth. Not everyone posting here adheres to the same standard of accuracy. My personal standard is not to post anything on line that I wouldn't swear to in a court of law. However, it is very obvious not everyone on line adheres to such a standard. It would be unwise to assume everything on line is the honest to God truth, and that the person who has posted the information has double-verified his post for accuracy.

The Way International leadership survives on lies. They eat them, sleep them, dream them, then spew them out in order to achieve their ends. Minutes before the kangaroo court where our Way Corps status was removed, I overheard Mark Wallace tell Larry Panarello that "The Nessles have to go." Panarello responded by agreeing to back Wallace up in whatever he decided. Then when Panarello opened the meeting, he stated that nothing was a foregone conclusion regarding our Corps status. From that point on I knew I was dealing with a basket of vipers. The first thing Panarello did was accuse me of witholding a specific bit of information from Mark Wallace. I then told him that in fact I had informed Josephine Wallace of that very bit of information in a two-hour face to face conversation the first day I met her. Josephine could not look me in the eye, but rather sat silently staring at her hands in her lap. Immediately I was jumped on by one of the three or four other "reverend" bobbleheads who accused me of "calling Reverend Wallace a liar" in order to take the spotlight off of the obvious communication problem I had highlighted between Mark and Josephine. Then they tried to get me to attribute remarks to my former limb coordinator that I knew he did not say. I knew then they were after him as well, to catch him in his words. They asked me what he had said to me and I repeated it verbatim. Then they would twist his words back to me, saying, "are you saying he told you...," twisting and perverting the actual meaning of his words. I would say "no, that's not what he said... he said....etc.," repeating the words I knew he said. They did this for a good hour before they saw I was not going to let them put a lie in an honest man's mouth. This angered them to no end, so they began to attack me again. On and on it went, the various "reverend" bobbleheads vomiting accusations one after the other. When I would successfully refute one person, then the next "reverend" bobblehead would fire another accusation to change the subject. They tried every which way to get me and my husband to lose our composure under their fire and break down and confess to their lies and perjure ourselves. We refused to cave in, and despite the hollowness of their accusations, the bobbleheads nodded their empty skulls in agreement that "The Nessles must go!" In retrospect, I wish we had walked out. Our Corps status was removed, and later that year so was our fellowship, with Mark Wallace screaming evil epithets at the top of his lungs in our home, and threatening my husband, my daughter, and myself with physical ailments, spiritual possession, and death if my husband didn't "get a passion for the truth." We had to attend fellowship at Wallace's house, which was a joke. There was no fellowship in the true sense of the word. We were treated like outcasts. One of my daughter's little friends, probably barely 5 years old at the time, came up and told her his Mom told him that it was OK that we wouldn't see them anymore, that he would see us at the gathering together!!!! Like we were already DEAD!!!! Eventually, after enduring a ridiculously hypocritical teaching, on the way home I announced to my daughter that we had just attended our last fellowship. She was frightened to death, because she had heard Mark Wallace threaten that if her Dad didn't get a passion for the truth, that he would die a lonely old man, I would be crippled for life, and that she would become a stark raving lunatic! My daughter was hysterical at the announcement, fearing that our lives were in immediate danger. When I got home, she called the Wallace's house, crying, because we weren't coming back to fellowship and she thought we were all going to die. When Mark Wallace got back into town, he was upset because we had left of our own accord, and he didn't have the glory of "casting us out of the fellowship" himself. So he called me and wanted to "meet". That was my mistake. I had already left, I guess it was curiosity and partly feeling I was still obligated to this "reverend" in some way. So we went. Same kind of meeting as above. The meeting was to quick to assemble the "reverend" bobbleheads, so two other Corps couples would have to do. And on cue, as soon as I would refute an accusation, I was jumped on like white on rice, no word in edgewise. I don't know why I expected it to be any different than the first kangaroo court. Chalk it up to the fact that breaking the control leadership has over you due to years of conditioned unquestioned obedience to superiors takes a while to finally break. Lies and intimidation. That's how they operate. And when you refuse to cave in to their demands, the threats and pressure get worse until you give in to them and give them what you want, or they get rid of you.

Heck yeah. That's the way most folks were disposed of in the late 90's and early 2000's. After attending one particularly hypocrisy-filled teaching, I informed my daughter on the way home that we had just attended our last fellowship-- no way was I going to go back. When Mark Wallace got wind that I had left, he called and wanted to arrange a "meeting". When we got there, there were two couples who were there to back Mark up in anything he wanted to do and say. These were people who had no first hand knowlege of our lives in any meaningful way. They were just there as Wallace's bobble-heads. Mark decided during the meeting to mark and avoid us and "put us out of the fellowship." Funny, but how can you do that to someone who already decided to leave? Anyway, actually attending the meeting was my mistake. No room to get a word in edgewise, it was a one-way blast of foul language from Wallace's pie hole with "me too" agreements from the other two couples. I hear they are "kinder" and "gentler" nowadays, but so far, no one has apologized to any of us who were treated in such a heinous manner. Those who tried to break up our marriage and gutstrip our family were promoted for their efforts-- they are now region coordinators. As a matter of fact, Wallace and Panarello and others were in a bit of a competition with regards to how many long-standing faithful believers they could cut down (See Psalm 74, especially verse 5). And Wallace eventually took Panarello down by deceit as well. He's an extremely jealous viper good at eliminating his competition. In Psalm 74 David accurately describes the kind of rampant internal destruction that these kinds of people conspire to do-- to destroy God's heritage from within. Nothing new under the sun. And God isn't blind, nor is he deaf to our cries. Payback is coming, and it's a b!tch.

Gives the experience of hearing that piano play "Rise Up O Men of God" a whole new meaning, now, doesn't it Donna?

Interesting you should bring up that plush office, Grizz-- and whether Donna uses it. Donna, how do you feel when you go into that office, knowing what has occurred there? How do you feel sitting in the chair where your husband received --how many blow jobs-- from an untold number of women? Donna, what is it like to sit down and work at the desk where your husband used to sweep everything onto the floor and happlily hump the flavor of the month? How does it feel to still use that office and to visit all the other places on HQ grounds where your husband admitted to .... Tell me, just how do you feel when the piano swings out of it's cubbyhole before a Sunday Service, eh?

I really doubt the 3:00 nap and the rubdown. I am positive Donna pushes papers somewhere at HQ. But, she surely does it in a nice comfy environment and at hours unlike the typical TWI workerbee. Donna is well accustomed to special treatment. This woman has had her own personal assistants, housekeepers, nannies, and has never had to lift a finger to keep her own home in the same way you and I keep ours. She has never had to face reality in the same way you and I have had to. Be assured that in whatever agreement was struck when Craig changed "jobs" that the family is being supported in the manner to which they have been accustomed.

Donna knows which side her bread is buttered on... and always has. She knew which star to hitch her wagon to in order to get to the top. And how to behave in order to keep that position once she got there. When I confronted her, Emogene, and Bill Winegarner in the back room of the BRC in 1983, she played innocent regarding the backdoor politicking at HQ so as not to rile any feathers. I took all three of them on at once and pinned them down each and every time they tried to tag me with a lie. Finally after Winegarner left in disgust and Emogene was excused, Donna told me she was just "so new" to her position at headquarters as the wife of the president, and it was not easy for her to "confront" such a "pillar" as the wife of a trustee. What a crop of crap. It was no problem for me to do it, regardless of consequence to myself, right in front of her, and she had been at HQ much longer than I. Donna just can't seem to stand up for the truth when she knows it as long as her own comfort and reputation are at stake. She couldn't do it then, she couldn't do it when her husband was exposed, and she won't do it now. Suffer? She has no idea what that word means. And she will do whatever it takes to make sure she never has to.