Catcup

MJ412 Thanks. I will clarify this: I do believe that there are people who are so self-centered that when they screw up, they are only sorry for the trouble it causes themselves. And there are those who get past that to see that they have hurt an innocent person, and are sorry for what they caused them. But you are right, it can very well be seen as controlling to say --"I won't forgive you until..." I am reminded of what my husband tells me all the time: "It's not 'I love you if, or I love you when, or I love you until'-- it's 'I love you.' period." Unconditional love is what God shares with us, and it is what my husband and I strive to give each other. And it is what people seem they could be extending when they forgive someone who seems unforgivable. And I know that it is that kind of love that can pull someone out of bad behavior and let them know they can be forgiven. And it is that kind of forgiveness that can also stimulate the person to want to change-- so that it comes from within, not without. It is this kind of love, mercy, and grace, that has kept my own family together at times, and given hope to people who felt they were hopeless. Thanks for the beminder. However, I don't believe you can legislate when and how and if ever that can occur. And I don't "love" the unrepentant offenders from TWI in the same way that I "love" my family or friends. If I so choose, I can forgive them. That may have benefits to me in letting go of something, if I haven't let go of it already. But I do believe you can hold a person accountable for his wrongdoing while not holding on to bitterness.

Thanks Lorna. What Socks said. And what my Gestalt professor said.

Whew. Thanks, Cherished Child-- I was beginning to feel like I was suddenly not speaking english anymore. And I agree that forgiveness is not a blank check for the offender to continue the same hurtful behavior. In my opinion, that's how you know if someone is truly sorry-- it involves a change of behavior. I believe there are two kinds of sorry: One is the person is sorry they are suffering the consequences. The other is, the offender is sorry for their behavior, which includes action on the part of the offender to change it. Only one is worthy of forgiveness, IMO.

Ex, if you are talking about the same Nik that Dot Matrix was talking to me about, he is NOT in my "group," he is with TWI. As for a Nick C---, I do not personally know a Nick C---, but if he in fact said what you say he did, this person is insensitive, clueless, and abusive REGARDLESS OF WHO HE FELLOWSHIPS WITH, and had no right to say such a hurtful FALSE thing to Dot. And it has nothing to do with me or Geek. As for CFF, the structure is much different than TWI. It is my understanding that not only individual people, small home fellowships, or groups of whole fellowships, but also other whole ministries "affiliate" with CFF. That means we fellowship together, while we do not exercise control over each other doctrinally or otherwise. Doctrinally we can "agree to disagree" on a variety of issues. That allows us to simply fellowship with people who agree on their love for our Lord Jesus Christ. It is also my understanding that CFF does not exercise the kind of doctrinal and personal control over people who choose to be affiliated with them that TWI exercises over its possessions. It is also my understanding from John Shroyer that abusive behavior will not be tolerated from either leadership or people in the fellowship. My advice for anyone with first hand knowledge of such behavior would be to take it straight to him. I say that because I don't have first hand knowlege of it, so if I did tried to handle it, it would be hearsay. So, the person who was offended might want to pursue it with him. I have found personally, Shroyer to be very approachable and not offended to be asked hard questions about such things. Before I decided to attend a single meeting, I had a straight, no holds barred conversation with the man and told him I would not put up with being involved in a ministry that allowed abuse of any kind. Shroyer was not offended at my questions and I was not shy about asking. He assured me that the kinds of abuses I experienced in TWI would not be tolerated in CFF. He also made a public statement regarding not tolerating adultery in CFF. I know for a fact Shroyer understands that Jon and I do not associate with anyone who feels that "you could not wipe your butt without Wierwille." Jon and I formally consider such statements abusive. Anybody who truly KNOWS us knows that. Neither Geek NOR I would ever claim that a person is "nobody" without TWI or PFAL or Wierwille. Nor is it the position of anyone we want to be associated with. "Cat, you have sure become rude...Why? What has hardened you?? Rascal, I was about to say the same thing to you. NO ONE is telling you or anyone else to forgive anyone. You have jumped to conclusions. I am not the one being rude here, dear. I have been starkly surprised at the personal attacks, insinuations, and outright lies that are posted on this thread, and I am surprised at YOUR attitude. I have said that I do not believe I can tell anyone who or when or if or what they should forgive. I have said that is up to the person and between them and God. And it is not for me to judge a person who decides not to forgive someone. I've also stated that I believe it is wrong for anyone to demand a person who has been horribly wronged to forgive their offender. And as a matter of fact, that IS Geek's position as well. Asking a simple question here, showed how some folks can jump to conclusions, and misread another's intent. And, even when a position is clarified, those who just want to fight stay on it like a dog on a bone. He simply asked if anyone was ready to forgive. He is not TELLING you to, and there is a huge difference. "LCM and his henchmen" can be anyone from a BOT member down to your local TC or even someone else in your fellowship, if they carried out his orders. Some people have worked things out between them and the other person. Those people were ready at that point. Others of us are not ready. For a multitude of damn good reasons, I might add. For instance, as I said before, I forgave Don Wierwille, former BOT member, for what he did to me, because he apologized specifically and privately to me. However, he may not have apologized to YOU if he offended YOU. I can forgive him for what he did to me, but I have no authority to let him off the hook for what he did to YOU, and I DON'T. Now, I ask, how is that offensive to you? I have forgiven Don Wierwille, but I have NOT forgiven LCM, LP, MW, and several others who have NOT apologized to me. If they did, I might consider what they said. If afterwards I decided to forgive them, I would be letting them off the hook ONLY for what they did to me. I would not, nor do I have the authority, to let them off the hook for what they did to YOU. Now, how is that so offensive to you? How did it become so offensive to ask if anyone was ready to forgive them? At the same time Geek is asking you the question, he is asking me as well. I'm not offended to say I was ready to forgive Don Wierwille, but NOT ready to forgive the rest of them, and won't even consider it until they ask. How that question is so offensive, I have no idea. My family was devastated as much or even more in some cases than the next person. I am not offended if someone asks me if I am ready to forgive. I'm not offended at the question, and I am not embarassed at the answer. Nor do I feel like I am being accused of being wrong because I choose NOT to let LCM and others off the hook. I don't get it why some folks still feel like they are being told by us to forgive, or are being condemned for not being forgiving, when asked that question, -- Unless they are just plain shell-shocked from the constant barrage leveled against them while they were in TWI, and feel like that is what we are doing. Now, that, I can understand. If that is the case, please know again, that is not our intent. We have no condemnation for anyone regarding whom they do or do not forgive regarding your experience in TWI. I have clarified our intent several times-- it is not to condemn, but to simply ask. Now if some still choose to pick and twist at words and read into them, that is their choice. I have plainly told you that you are not condemned by us for what happened to you or what another person did to you, or for your choice to forgive or not to forgive. We believe that is an issue that lies squarely between the person and God. Nor are WE responsible for what another person did to you. I can admire a person for actually forgiving someone who has grievously wronged them. That has to come from some incredible strength in that individual, and compassion, which I believe is always admirable. What is wrong with admiring that in a person? At the same time I do NOT condemn another person who has been so heinously gutstripped that they cannot forgive an unrepentant abuser. Nor do I believe they are obligated to. As a matter of fact, I admire a person for NOT letting an unrepentant serial abuser like Martindale et al off the hook. Again I ask, what is so offensive about that?

As a matter of fact, I had a spare minute or two. I am questioning the wisdom of spending them on you, though. Don't know what I ever did to you to draw such ire. Don't care now, either. I never knew you then or now. Going out for a nice relaxing dinner. Have fun boiling. I refuse to do it with you.

Cowgirl you want to fight? Seems like it. No where do I attribute myself omniscience nor omnipotence. You on the otherhand, make yourself judge and jury.

Pardon us if we come here when we have a spare moment, and make a comment or two or even dare to ask a question! Good grief! As if no one else has the right to post here unless they promise to devote all their spare time to you. I left THAT cult a long time ago.

I am humbled you seem to have attributed the forsight of the almighty to us, but no, we had no idea this thread was going to become so cantankerous. Geek's point was listed in his first post. But then again, those who are in the mood to argue, point the finger of blame, and stuff words in our mouths with their filthy fingers, have made up as many intentions as they dare.

"excathedra total eclipse of the heart posted November 05, 2004 22:22 ps. are you ready for this, geek ? i'm trying to forgive reverend nick whateverhisname is from your group for being so horribly hurtful to dot matrix. he told her something like she was "nothing" without pfal.... it was much worse what he said but i can't remember" Excathedra, we have not been with Nick's "group" since we left TWI in 1997. I understand it was your "group" at one time too? Dot Matrix emailed me and wanted to know if we knew Nick ------. We never personally knew Nick ------ other than in passing, and having been in the same corps as his wife, and to my knowledge he still plays organ for The Way International, and has nothing to do with us. I told this to Dot in an email. No, we don't personally know him, and he absolutely knows nothing about us. We've never been friends. What does he have to do with us, and where is your attitude coming from as if we are somehow even associated with what happended to Dot? We had no more to do with it than YOU did.

“Geek, I gotta ask you, and anybody else shaking their finger in our collective faces about forgiveness...." "Was it not Geek who was telling me whom *I* am to forgive?" “S`far as I can see not a single person that Geek has mentioned, has met the requirement for being granted forgiveness." I ask you again, exactly WHO has Geek mentioned by name, Rascal? Again, I find you STILL putting words in his mouth. And song, it looks like you have a problem with Shroyer. If you do, that’s not our business. We refuse to get involved in your little spat. Take it to him, not me or Geek. And yes, we have lives. Busy ones. That include not only home, business and school, but also family who are elderly and ill, who require much travel and care. And it is to them we are obligated, not to people who just want to bitch and argue, twist our words, and outright make things up. We owe you jack$hit. To those who have been respectful, again, we thank you. To those who have not, well, have your thread.

It was proof to me. At the time, I didn't need proof, wasn't looking for any. I still don't. I considered it an extra special blessing for myself at the time, and still do. Something God did for me of his own prerogative to bless me because I already believe, not so I would believe. I still look at it that way. To people who need proof? Hey, I can't convince you, it's between you and God what you believe. But the Word is clear about those seeking signs.

OK, here goes: A fellow student of Dr. Voobus (Bob Wassung) and I attended a region meeting near Chicago. We both sat next to each other. During manifestations, a WOW ambassador stood to speak in tongues and interpret. As I sat there, half way paying attention to the tongues which I was not used to understanding, I noticed I was actually understanding the tongue. I immediately looked to my right, to my friend Bob, who was staring at me with his mouth open. We were both understanding the tongue. The man was speaking in perfect Hebrew, which we were both familiar with. After the manifestations, we both stood up and approached Ralph Dubofsky, who was leading the meeting, and reported what we had just witnessed. We then pointed out the man who had spoken in Hebrew, and he verified he had no knowledge whatsoever of that language. Not to degrade the man, but he was a country bumpkin type with barely a high school diploma, and a thick southern drawl. You can interpret the incident anyway you want-- you were not in our shoes. But Bob Wassung and I know Hebrew. We were BOTH there to witness it. We BOTH heard a man who had no knowlege of the language speak it perfectly, without an accent, and give the interpretation ACCURATELY of what he had just spoken in the Hebrew language. Take it however you will, believe whatever you will, but NO ONE will be able to successfully refute to me OR to Bob, what we both witnessed that day in Chicago.

Hellen Parker was also a teacher at that advance... she later married Ken Sudduth.

At an Indiana Women's Advance in April of 1973 the theme was "Promises" --and each of us received a syllabus with nothing but promises outlined in the Word of God, with the scripture references. I kept it for decades, but eventually tossed it out and I wish I still had it. A great deal of it had to do with Old Testament law, and the promises of health and prosperity that came with adherance to it. Then of course there were a lot of scriptures outlined from the New Testament as well. The syllabus was a little less than half an inch thick, single sided and double spaced. It was put together by a group of women at The Way of Indiana. So, at one time, a group of people did outline them. I don't remember the exact number of the promises in that syllabus, which was only handed out to the women at the advance in Indianapolis, but there were quite a few. Women who taught at the advance: Connie Emerson (before her divorce and subsequent later marriage to Panarello) Stevie Kay Louis Pat Lynn I'm sure there were others-- it was a two day event, and Good Seed played. That's all I can remember. But, yeah, there was documentation at some point.

Now I'm done.

This is exactly my point as stated in my first post about choice. The choice is the same one many people here have made regarding TWI Not letting them off the hook until they realize and admit what they did. No?

You know it wasn't posed as a sentence. It was an insinuation.

Yes, Cowgirl, I just preached that if I so choose, I can hold someone responsible for their behavior. That is exactly what I am doing. Evidently you didnt read my first post either. You are insinuating my position without knowing what it is, girlfriend.

"Was it not Geek who was telling me whom *I* am to forgive?" I asked you to prove he said that. You cannot find one line where he did. There is your accusation Rascal, which you keep ignoring. Now let's hear your justification for it, I know it's coming. I am not the one who turned this into an attack on Geek. You began that with the tone of your initial two posts, then accusing him of wagging his finger at you, and then accused him of telling you who to forgive. You twisted his words. As for sticking up for my husband, I am quite sure you would be indignant yourself if a person here accused your husband of something he did not do. I have joined the discussion. You don't want to admit to your accusation. I choose not to let you off the hook for it, which is my CHOICE. You are the one who hurled petty insults. I merely responded to them.

Ex, your link says it very well. I will reiterate a few things I said before: I can choose to hold an offender responsible for his actions while NOT carrying bitterness and strife in my heart. The offender carries the burden. He or she must live with what they have done. And in the case of a sociopath who has no conscience, don't fool yourself into thinking they suffer no consequences. They do. It manifests itself as deficits in many other areas of their lives. Also: I don't think you can demand a horribly injured person to extend complete forgiveness immediately to one who refuses to believe they have done anything wrong. I think that is harmful to do on many levels, especially as pointed out in the link listed by excathedra. But I do think loving a person when they are the most unlovable, and forgiving a person when they are the most unforgivable, can be the most Godly act a person can make in their own heart between themselves and God and one of the most Christlike compassionate gestures one person can make toward another human being. I will clarify again here, that if a person CHOOSES to extend forgiveness to a person while they are at their most unforgivable, it is their CHOICE and should come from their HEART. I NO NO WISE BELIEVE THIS IS MANDATED AT ANY TIME WHATSOEVER. If a person does decide to do that, it is an incredible gift. If a person does NOT choose to do it, I BELIEVE they are none worse for wear. They are no less in God's eyes for it even if they NEVER choose to forgive the person who refuses to acknowledge the wrongdoing and hurt they have caused. I believe it is possible to hold a person accountable and responsible for damage they did to you, and NOT hold bitterness and strife. That can take some work, but I disagree with those who say that if you do not extend immediate forgiveness to someone who wronged you, you must of necessity be poisoned by your own bitterness. That view, in my opinion, negates the power of God to heal a person's heart.

Cowgirl, If you want to cheer for the Way Corps, you are talking to the wrong person if you are talking to me.

Thanks, Vertical. I appreciate that.

From what I read on this thread, common belief is that I do not have to extend forgiveness in the case where a person does not ask for it and does not believe they have done anything wrong. That applies to TWI, no? And doesn't apply here for some reason?

Vertical, HAS SHE ASKED? Please see "choices."

Listen to myself? I'm evidently I'm one of only a few people doing that. I think I have every right to point out a false accusation. I pointed them out while I was IN TWI and I will point them out HERE. IF that ruffles a few feathers, so be it.