Catcup

HCW, Again, thank you for sharing the truth of what happened to Rochelle. As Sunesis said, it is so very easy to get sidetracked from the original purpose of the thread, and we should remember it was to memorialize Rochelle and tell the truth of what happened to her-- that her suicide resulted from depression possibly related to brain injury, which may not have been properly addressed due to TWI's lack of individual care and callousness of treatment. It disheartens me to see people come here, try to make a decent point, fill in the missing pieces about a significant event, and they get derailed and picked to pieces, and mired down in the details of having to defend themselves against whatever some cyberbully decides to pick on. This behavior actually mimicks what TWI did to us: strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel-- pick at one detail to the neglect of the main body of witness. This happens way too often here these days, and it's too damn bad. That's the mildest way I can put it. You know what HCW, those of us who were going to "get" the heart of what you wanted to share, GOT it. You have no obligation to explain yourself to people who truly don't give a damn about what you were trying to explain. Don't even try. Some folks here who think they are so enlightened (0N BOTH SIDES OF AN ISSUE), just hang out to tear folks down in order to build up their own egos. Thanks again.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY SHELL!!!!!!!

Thank you for sharing your story about what happened to Rochelle. I was on HQ staff when the accident occurred and was at lunch when it was announced. I can't remember if the announcer was LCM or Micael F@rt. There was mention of a lot of injuries, but I got the impression from the announcement that they were mostly minor(!!!). I remember some mention of the physical cause being wind, and concern that the incident would cast TWI in an unfavorable light-- not so much concern for the injured. It was also brought up that this "load" of LEAD folks were a bunch of spiritual weaklings being tested, and for that reason some blame for the incident seemed to be applied to the people involved, and the leadership of the LEAD program in general. So HCW, I can bear witness to what you were told. I do remember my own reaction of being ....ed off that TWI would do something so obviously stupid as to load all those people up in the back of a truck. I felt TWI and their policies were more to blame than anyone else, and their repeated lack of concern for the safety of the individual. In the 6th corps, one of our women had been abducted during hitch hiking. She and her partner were riding in a semi, and her partner asked for a potty stop. He got out to go to the bathroom, and the driver drove off with the woman. Don't know any more of the details, but the woman was returned. It seems to me that TWI never got the message how dangerous this practice is, even after Ken Barden was killed on the highway, they continued their unsafe practices, with full knowlege of the dangers. Negligience, it seems to me. As far as the accident itself, in the world we live in, yes, the driver would have shouldered the blame. He had been distracted by trying to carry on an interview and read while driving down the road. Plain and simple. However, the ultimate responsibility for the accident should rest solely upon the shoulders of the board of trustees and those people who made the decisions requiring the driver to meet an impossible deadline and those who made the decisions on how to transport those people. It is TWI and their representing officers who made those decisions, applied undue pressures, forced unsafe practices, and neglected to follow through with appropriate medical and psychological care, who are at the ROOT cause of this calamity, and are ULTIMATELY responsible for the injuries, and the eventual related death of Rochelle. TWI, despite their protests and insistence to the contrary, has NEVER been concerned with the well-being of the individual, only their own backside. I was a part of the post-Sommerville, pre-LEAD "camping" experience. During the experience, our group was woken up in the middle of the night (Don't know what time it really was because we were not allowed to have a timepiece on the trip) and made to break camp, and hike out silently in the darkness, without the use of flashlights. During this hike in the pitch dark in the Kansas flint hills, we were led along the edge of a kind of cliff. The ground beneath me gave way, and I ended up falling and sliding down a 25-30 foot precipice and banging my spine along the rocks. When I got up and tried to walk, I soon discovered I had no feeling in the left side of my body from the hip down. I had to finish the hike in that condition-- another 10 miles or so. I told the hike leader, who at least insisted I walk with him. As soon as I got back to campus, I discovered I was slated the next day to go to the Texas farm. I immediately told B@b Mir@b!o about the accident and that I needed medical attention. He told me I was going to Texas ANYWAY. I assumed he had not correctly heard me, so I repeated the fact that I had fallen down a cliff and was numb from the waist down on the left hand side and I felt I needed immediate medical attention. He forcefully told me I would be repacking my gear to leave first thing in the morning for Texas. I couldn't f@cking believe it. I would have taken it to the Corps Coordinator, but he had been called away to another campus due to an emergency and left B@b in charge. So, I ended up being shipped off to Texas, where the farm owner was livid that he had been sent someone who could not work in the field, and raised hell with everyone about it. I ended up having to stay there the entire week WITHOUT medical attention. When I got back, the Corps Coordinator (Ger@ald Wrxxn) tried to blame me for it all saying I hadn't been honest about my injury and tried to hide it. I told him to call in Bob Mir@b!to and we'd just see about that. Long and short of it is, Bob got his foot chewed out for not listening to me, and it was STILL another 4 days before I got medical attention. When I notified the Corps coordinator that the chiropractor felt I would need extensive work, he hit the roof and called the man a quack. I had to pay for my OWN medical care, and cut the appointments off because I couldn't afford them all. I still have back pain to this day from this injury, and I have intermittent numbness on the outside of my left thigh.

That's fine. :)-->

And that quote has something to do with Wierwille? With knowledge of and support of adultery? And the topic of this thread?

If a person CAN ask, and doesn't, I have to wonder whether they really want a truthful answer to the question. Perhaps getting at the truth first hand is not really that important to them after all? Not worth the time and effort? I can understand not wanting to be involved with any kind of group, and respect that completely. I don't understand wanting to cast doubt on a person's motivations without investigating it yourself as far as you can take it. Especially when the person is willing to take on the hard questions.

What the entire group thinks and believes can be as varied as all the opinions on this site. TWI ONE is a general term and can mean many things to many people. What Shroyer himself believes is a question best asked him personally. When a respected professional is asked for an opinion, if he or she chooses to give it, the best one will usually be based on the most accurate and primary information source that professional has access to, whether the person is a physician, an attorney, an architect, a plumber, or whatever. Every human being has a perfect right to his own opinion, based on whatever his or her personal reasons might be. However the quality of any opinion may vary. If not based on your own first-hand experience with you personally asking Shroyer these specific pointed questions mentioned in my above posts for yourself, upon what, you may ask yourself, do you base your opinion? Second-hand prejudicial information, suspicion, and/or supposition were the kinds of information used against many of us by TWI henchmen. It’s time we left that behind. If a person wants to cling to that, for whatever reason, it's their right. However, the value of a first hand experience and testimony is unquestionable. I found that Shroyer is a man who does not shy away from these hard and pointed questions. You can ask him yourself. I took my time and spoke to him face to face, eyeball to eyeball, and believe I got the true measure of the man—for myself. You can do that, too, if you want. If you can, what stops you? If you won’t, what are you afraid of? Your experience may vary. My experience does not negate your right to your opinion, nor does your opinion negate my first hand experience.

"The man of God who brought me God" was a Southern Baptist minister by the name of Brother Clayman who pastored the Washington Avenue Baptist Church in Evansville Indiana, when I was 9 years old. God rest his soul and reward him in heaven for all of his good works.

In 1998 I flat out asked John Shroyer if he knew what had gone on with VPW. He said like me, he never knew it was going on until after he left. While in TWI Shroyer said he never condoned that kind of behavior, and never knew VPW had done it. I pointedly asked him if he would condone it in CFF and he said absolutely not. And later on, he made a public announcement that adultery is wrong, and will not be tolerated in any form in CFF. Shroyer never went through the regular Way Corps training program. He was ordained later in his involvement in TWI, and then later still was made "honorary Way Corps." He seemed to be always on a different "loop" than the regular "fully initiated" hard core Way Corps clergy. So I can see how he might not have known about it, just like I had not known about it even though I was "fully committed" Way Corps, and been around for years and moved and contributed at high levels at times. The "inner circle" knew who to approach, and who NOT to approach with their illicit behavior. I believe I was never approached because it was known I would never put up with it. I had questioned VPW about what happened when he visited my sister on the WOW field and why she was dismissed after his visit. His reaction was really brusque and unexpected. I believe now I hit too close to home for him, so he knew to leave me alone. Also, I exposed a couple (married but not to each other) I found going at it in Kenyon Hall. If you were otherwise valuable to the ministry, you were kept around, just out of the "inner circle." Shroyer says he put the dots together after leaving and hearing the same stuff I did. I told him I would never EVER want to be involved with people who did that stuff or allowed it to happen, and he conviced me he never knew while in, and would not tolerate it in CFF. It is ONLY on the basis of my personal pointed interview (interrogation) of him, that I became involved at all. You all are free to believe what you will. I made my decision on a face to face inquest with the person in question.

My experience was similar to that of Outandabout. I only learned about it in 1997 about 6 months after I had already left, from my sister who finally felt it was safe to confide in me since now I and my parents were out. After helping her hook up her computer, I went on line and looked up The Way International, came up with John Juedes' site, and found Marsha's story-- this girl had been my roommate in residence. Things she said in the article fit with her behavior and things we had discussed. I was aghast. My sister asked me what I thought about it. I said I don't know, what do you think? Then for the very first time, she told me what happened to her in the motor coach back in 1975 when VPW came for a visit on the WOW field. She had kept it in all those years fearing that if she told me or my parents while we were still in, that we would disown her and she would lose the only family she had. --And she was spot on. Until I left, I would have disowned my own sister or at the very least written her off as "possessed." Only then did I believe. And only then was I able in retrospect, to connect the dots with many many incidents that I had simply chalked up to misunderstanding, thinking evil, or isolated incidents.

Belle- It's been a long time since I saw it, but I was living in Chicago at the time Matilda & Hubby (& Car) were all extras in the movie. It's an orange Volvo parked on the side of the road, I think in a quick pan of the park scene where the Nazis are involved. The bumper sticker is not the old green one with the open bible, but the white/green/black one with the newer (circa '73) logo on it.

Thanks to everyone for their input, especially for the suggestion regarding the p.o. box, which I plan to use in any future transactions. Also thanks to JohnIam for contacting this person in an to attempt to figure out exactly what he was up to. Durbin stepped over the line in not being honest about who he was and what his intentions were, and in contacting me for no other purpose than spoiling for a fight. For that I have turned him over to eBay for harassment, but that is as far as I have taken it at this point-- but I am keeping my options open. Durbin has shown himself at least to me, to be unstable, and delusional. And, the only thing predictable about his behavior is that without intervention, he will continue to follow his delusions.

Thanks John. Yes, he seemed pretty convinced I had claimed to pimp for VPW on GSC, and when I told him I had not done that or ever posted that I did, he said, "well, a thing like that can be erased." I hope he is harmless, as you say. But he is definately deluded into believing he is somehow called by God to defend the Wierwille family honor. Poor schmuck.

And, hey, that address thing is a two-edged sword: I just realized I have HIS address in the paperwork I kept from mailing the auction items out. Maybe St. Louis' finest should pay him a visit?

Thanks for all the advice. LOL The last time I filed a police report to simply have a record "just in case" I was vilified by a few on this site for doing so. But I have to look out for my skin. I have run into some pretty psychologically bankrupt individuals who either were or still are associated with TWI. Better safe than sorry, I say.

Done.

For several months I have been selling off extra Way materials from my library and those of several other people. For the most part, the folks who buy are reliably prompt in their payments and very pleasant to deal with. I have found a few to even be extremely encouraging and positive. However, I have recently had a strange experience with someone who believes it is his mission in life to harass people who he believes have somehow sullied the name of Victor Paul Wierwille, and devalue his memory by selling TWI and VPW items on eBay. His userID is lucyandrickie, and the items were all requested to be shipped to a Jennifer Samuel. After lucyandrickie won about 15 of my auctions, I got several emails from Jennifer Samuel regarding the items sold and related issues. Then Jennifer began requesting personal information, which caused me to question her motives. Finally, Jennifer revealed "herself" as John Reed Durbin, Jr., a name I believe I have seen here on GSC. Durbin began sending me a series of harassing emails, accusing me of claiming on GSC that I had personally recruited women for Victor Paul Wierwille's sexual exploitation and took them to VPW's motorcoach for sex-- which I neither claimed nor did. Durbin made it clear that he believes it is his mission from God to "expose" the "liars" who have sullied VPW's "honor," and he is "staked on the Word of God" to bring consequences to them. He has delusions of grandeur seeing himself as a crusader and higher power in the church commissioned by Almighty God to visit consequences Romans 13-style upon anyone who dares to speak out against his "man of God." This person unfortunately knows where I live because my return address was on every box I mailed to "Jennifer Samuel." And he really is delusional, believing he is commissioned by the Almighty to visit consequences on the "ungodly." I've turned him in to eBay for harassment. But I thought you ought to know that if you are going to sell anything on eBay related to TWI and VPW, that he stalks that site looking not just to buy back TWI materials from the hands of "moneygrubbers," but also to stalk and harass the sellers whom he believes have forsaken God and abandoned their commitment.

Dear Mike, I am very sorry to hear of the loss of your father. God bless and keep you. You are in my thoughts and prayers.

Ex-- Please PT me re new info regarding NC

Psst--- ex--- the quote you have from me up there: I wasn't talking to YOU. You never contacted me outside this thread TO GIVE ME YOUR SUPPORT. Nor am I asking for it. I am simply thanking all the people who HAVE done this. Geeze, now I even get in trouble for THANKING the people who supported me? It is REALLY time to go now.

My "turn"? I don't think so. I was never banned from WD or GS. People were banned from WD when their behavior became abusive.

Rascal, as for the dirty kitty litter, you are the one who set the tone on this thread. You still don't get it. Other people answered the question that they were not ready to forgive, and took no offense. You and some others are so touchy regarding the question, it can't even be brought up without you bristling at it. That has more to do with you all than it does with us. Jon and I already clarified our intents. Anyone who still takes offense where none was intended and clarified, simply WANTS to take offense and is purposefully distorting what we said, taking our words out of context, and taking an analogy too far. That's not us, that's you all, and is typical of a person who has LOST ALL PERSPECTIVE. Jon took time away from our family, from things that needed to be done this past weekend, to try to give an answer from his heart in the time he had. Because he spent time doing that, certain things in our family did not get done that really needed to. And, you STILL just wanted to pick, take things out of context, take his analogy too far, and then dare to suggest he is a troll and is feigning being too busy. I don't mind sacrificing something once in a while to help someone who really wants an answer. I dedicated my life to doing that for years. I've always been willing to help people who really want it. But some of you folks don't f*****g have a life at all, do nothing but sit your fat arse in front of a computer all day to pick at gnats like pharisees to the neglect of a genuine life and resent it that someone else has one, and get angry that we don't drop what we are doing and attend to you because you want to fight all day. Life to us now, is too precious to give ours to people who want to waste it. The good people who come here and KNOW our hearts, also know where to find us when they need to. You people who just want to pretend how righteous you are while twisting our words, putting words in our mouths, leveling false accusations against us and even demanding an accounting of us for our time, don't get it that you are as abusive as the cult you claim to have left. You may have left TWI, but you carry on your abusive behaviors here. You have replaced TWI with GSC and (unfairly to GSC) are using it to continue your own abusive patterns which you refuse to admit you have. To those of you who know us, and have contacted us outside this thread to let us know of your support, we thank you, and you obviously know how to reach us if you need to. To those of you who are abusive on this thread, we owe you absolutely nothing, not one more second of what is left of our precious lives.

We never came here to recruit. Toldja that. Our purpose on WD and here predates our involvement with any group whatsoever. After nearly thirty years of forced witnessing, I am not interested in proselytizing. And yes, we took several years off. But boy has this place changed. Used to be, we were welcome here. Now I see we are trolls. Just like "There ain't no strangers here at The Way" changed into a bunch of lying, accusing slobbering maniacs. Such irony in the parallels.

"The moral of this story is that you never know what kind of pain another person may be in who is causing you problems." And I might add-- to look beyond your own pain to see what is hurting someone else. It wasn't until we understood how much pain he was in that we understood why I even today carry the scars of this cat on both my hands. It was in this Jon and I learned many valuable lessons for ourselves. We haven't listed them all. If you can learn something from what Jon chose to share with you, fine. If you can't, don't let it stop you from learning from the rest of what he said. If after that, you still think we're trying to guilt you into forgiving someone, then, you are still missing the point and there ain't nothin I can do about it.

Rascal, please go back and read the front of this thread. Your initial post set an argumentative tone, before even one person got rankled. I was excited to have the time to come back here after a long hiatus. However, I noticed things about this site were very different than the last time I was here. And there was a noticeable difference in you, whether you want to admit it or not. You came swinging right out of the box at anything that moved as soon as forgiveness was mentioned. But I'm not going to beat this dead horse with you again. If you don't want to see it, I can't make you. It has to come from you.