Catcup

Um... WTH are you saying that all those parents who lost their kids at Columbine did so because of their own FEAR? They all so feared for their children that it was their FEAR that made those other two kids build bombs in their garage and then bring rifles and guns to school and try to wipe out their classmates and teachers? Darn, somebody should round up all those parents and put them on trial for murder... And by the way, a LAW works all the time, in every situation, no matter what. Yes, helium will keep a balloon up for only so long, but it is the LAW of gravity that brings it down when the helium is spent. An airplane uses fuel, speed, and lift to go up, but the LAW of gravity is used in combination with other things to bring the plane back down. Planes and balloons don't go up and STAY up indefinitely. And yes, I reject the "law of believing" as a LAW. There is a difference between a law and a principle. One is NOT the other. In my many years in The Way International, during the many classes I attended, and while literally sitting at the feet of this man, I NEVER heard Victor Paul Wierwille claim that believing was a "crude approximation of a law." However, Wierwille did claim "mathematical exactness and scientific precision," in the same breath as "the law of believing." Now, if you're going to do that, you'd better be accurate, since you are crossing the line from Christianity into Science and Mathematics. The scientific definition of a true law does NOT fit the concepts of belief, trust, and faith, which are all guiding principles in Christianity, and are NOT LAWS. The world was once FILLED with people who BELIEVED WITH ALL THEIR HEARTS that THE WORLD WAS FLAT. And they feared that if they ventured too far off toward the horizon, that they would drop off the edge of the world into a pit of vicious mythological animals. Now if believing were a law, and fear is believing, those men who so feared dropping off the face of the earth would have done so! As a matter of fact, if believing were a true law, that worked for saints and sinners alike, as is stated in that class, folks, we would be living in a flat world. It took some pretty brave people to strike out on their own to challenge the horizon to see if the belief was in fact a fallacy. And an accident in navigation proved just that: the world was round. I don't care what you believe with all your heart, just because you believe it does not make it so. But then again, that's what The Way International has always and is still selling people. There is only safety in what they teach, and if you venture too far away from the safety of the household, only devastation awaits you. Um, wth & Mike--- are you living in a flat world? There is a "Flat Earth Society" if you should so choose to join: http://www.flat-earth.org

Ah, yes, the outrageous claim. Or, as they used to teach us in Christian Manipulative, er, Motivational Techniques: The first thing you do to get their attention is to make a Big Fat Claim! It's that old addage the communist party used to use, that still works for any huckster: Tell a lie, tell it big enough, and long enough, and loud enough, and the people will eventually believe you.

And about that pooch pornography: He showed that movie to an advanced class where I KNOW there was at least one seventeen year old girl in the audience-- probably more. In the country I live in, it is ILLEGAL to show pornography to a minor. Now you tell me, just what are the motivations for a fifty to sixty year old man to show pornography to minor teenage girls? There is absolutely NO JUSTIFICATION FOR IT WHATSOEVER.

The law of believing. That is what Wierwille called it, a law. Not a principle (a guiding concept) but a law-- something that is immutable and inviolate: What you believe will surely come to pass, whether positive or negative. We've heard this all before. This "law" was drummed into our heads from the very beginning of our involvement, from session one of Power For Abundant Living or even our first fellowship. And, as we deepened our involvement in The Way International, it became part of the fabric of our gestalt. This is why some who have left, even decades later, still have such difficulty with prying it out of their lives and seeing it for what it was: a manipulation and control technique. The "law" was the cardinal lesson of session one, and has been the basic tool used by The Way International in every one of their endeavors to control people at every level of their involvement. From the very beginning we were taught to blame the victim and dismiss the perpetrator. Those who years later, still cling to it as if to a liferaft in a stormy sea, are still under the mind control of that organization, and have no idea that what they see as a liferaft, is an anvil they have voluntarily lashed themselves to, taking them deeper and deeper from reality.

I know. (The preceeding comment is out of context)

Just FYI The earliest SNS teaching I have of Rosy-Lie boring folks to death at the lectern is tape# 962, Stand In Christ's Stead, dated April 22, 1979.

TWI was always looking for the bogeyman in the closet, and expert at finding places to lay the blame for every little iota of a detail that didn't go the way they thought it should. Every good thing was attributed to actions TWI or it's ministers took, and every bad thing that happened had to have a scapegoat.

Amen and amen! Anyone ever notice, that when something bad happened to you, it was your fault, because of your believing-- and when something good happened to you, it was because of the household or the leadership? In a reproof epistle thinly disguised as a birthday card, my husband was told by his innie brother that the only reason we were able to conceive a child was because of "the household." Anybody else ever get that kind of crap?

I just simply cannot buy TWI's doctrine that believing is an immutable law. IMO it was just one more way by which they could manipulate, control, and blame people.

You guys still rattling around in that huge auditorium? How can you justify paying for the maintenance on that monster? I'd wager to say that it would be more cost efficient to hold Sunday teaching services back in the BRC again. It must be embarassing to hold meetings in that cavernous auditorium and fill up, what, the first five rows?

Sorry. I have hung onto them since I left in 1997. If I haven't listened to any of them in eight years, I'm not ever going to. I need the space they are taking up in my house and my life. I have made them available to people who think they will use them.

If anyone still has these letters, they would be an excellent addition to any case being brought against The Way International in order to show their strong-arm manipulation and threats.

I believe you could find evidence in a variety of situations for either case.

M*rk W*ll*ce may be a Region Coordinator for The Way International, but he is still an uneducated window washer, and far from the "nice guy" he used to be. He has become a very dangerous man. In college several years ago in my psychology study group, we were studying aberrant and deviant behavior, and a student there described an incident he had with his boss at Orkin as an example of a sociopathic disorder-- antisocial personality disorder. This man had made an indelible impression upon this student, who rightly pinned down the disorder. When describing the incident, he called his boss by his last name, which sounded distrubingly familiar. After the session, I asked him his Boss' first name, and got more information regarding his identity. No $**t, it was THE M*rk W*ll*ce of Way International fame, who held a managerial position with Orkin here in the Cleveland area just prior to taking on the Region job.

Saudi Arabia is the stronghold of the Wahhabi sect. The examples you give of executions are typical of Wahhabi. The conversions you speak of are not unlike the conversions Christians forced on Moslems and Jews in a similar time period. True Islam is more tolerant of Christians than right wing radical Christians are of Islam. If your information comes from right wing radical Christianity, it is skewed. Now-- re-rail: How 'bout them Nazis?

Threats are nothing new for The Way International, for Craig Martindale, or even for their current leadership-- kinder and gentler though they claim to be. M*rk W*ll*ce, who with his wife J*seph*ne are still higher level leadership with The Way International, made threats against people in my fellowship and against me and my family. When a recently-widowed man in our fellowship allowed his daughter to be cared for by his adamantly anti-Way mother in law, W*ll*ce became irate. When the man's dog died, W*ll*ce took the opportunity to insinuate that it was because the man was outside God's will in allowing his mother in law access to his daughter. Giving the man an ultimatum to prohibit the mother in law's access to her own grandchild, W*ll*ce's response to him when he rejected it was, "Who next in your family do you want to die?" W*ll*ce tried various means to break up our marriage and interfere in our family's medical decisions. He eventually removed our fellowship from us, and gave the following ultimatum at the top of his lungs, loud enough for our 9 year old daughter to hear: "If you don't get a passion for the truth, you (my husband) will die a lonely old man, you (myself) will be hobbled for life, and your daughter (just feet away from him) will be a stark raving lunatic!" Threats of tragic maiming, illness, and threats of death are nothing new to The Way International. Threats are done as a matter of course in dealing with people who refuse to submit to their control. The BOT rewarded W*ll*ce with a Region position. The Way International endorses his way of dealing with people. Death threats are JUST FINE with The Way International if you get on their bad side.

Very true. Bin Laden despises the Saudi royals and views them as pigs. The true religion is a tolerant one. Unfortunately, the worst of the worst gets the best of the press, and the religion itself is in crisis as the Wahhabi systematically are taking it over.

Jihad, or struggle, has a double meaning in Arabic and the Islamic religion. The first and most common usage is in regard to the internal struggle against evil in a person's own life. The closest thing to relate it to in Christianity is Romans 7:15ff. The Sixth Tenet in TRUE Islam has to do with this usage, the person's continued internal struggle to overcome evil. The second meaning is most misused, is in regards to Holy War which is waged against those who are enemies of Islam. This interpretation of the word jihad has been perverted by an extreme right wing cult (the Wahhabi of Saudi Arabia) that has hijacked the True Islamic religion and is trying to overthrow the more moderate sects, destroy their teachings, and whose goal is world conquest.

True, Belle, so true. It's a shame that those within TWI do not have the liberty that The Way International claims they have: Freedom to give to whomever they want, in the amount they purpose in their own heart, whenever they please. Freedom to speak to whomever they want, about anything on their hearts, without fear of retribution from the very people who claim to be laying their lives down for them in service. A sad, sad, state of affairs. A prison.

I'm wondering whatever happened to the person who put that bit of info regarding the Tsunami donation up on the board. He put up the info, the validity was questioned, and he flat out disappeared. Rico was questioned about it, says it in fact happened, and HE flat out disappears when he is questioned about it. Looks to me like those inside TWI cannot deal with people asking questions.

I gave Levy my notes during the Allen lawsuit after I posted particularly telling excerpts from them on WayDale-- quotes from LCM's rantings which revealed much about the man's mental instability and manipulations. Anyone can review their own Corps notes and post interesting quotes from them right here on GSC. If you care to, those notes can still be put to good use in a lawsuit.

Gee, I hope that antique firetruck they have parked in the OSC really works. I'd be really suspicious of any "fires" that accidentally break out in Coulter's "vault"...

Then there ought to be PLENTY of ammunition for any real attorney to subpoena if the need arose...

Once in the upper level of the Wierwille Library (You know, the library that had NO BOOKS), I attended a meeting where a Way leader was teaching that we, as Way Corps, were called to lead God's people from darkness into light. In order to do this, we were to use our brains to see things differently than "the world" sees them. In order to illustrate his point, the teacher drew three rows of three dots on a black board and asked us to connect all 9 dots using only 4 straight lines without lifting the pen from the paper. Of course, the only way it can be done is to extend the lines and go outside the "box" the 9 dots appear to make. Most people are fooled by the three rows of three dots, and think only of how to solve the puzzle by staying within the box. Most people, said the speaker, only think of solutions within the confines of what they can understand with their 5 senses. We, the Corps, were to "go outside the 9 dots," or outside the 5 senses to the Word of God (read rules and regulations and "spiritual principles" laid down by the ministry) in order to be successful leaders and successful believers. We all immediately understood. We had options that "the natural man" did not have: the "spiritual senses" of being led by the spirit, the written Word of God (as taught by leadership), and direction from the apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers that "God" (read the BOT) had set in our midst. However, what The Way International did for us was to lay down their own "Nine Dots of Nonsense" beyond which followers refuse to look. Way followers are so programmed to stay within the boundaries of what their leaders have taught them is the truth, that they refuse to consider there are options for them OUTSIDE the boundaries of what they have been taught. Way Followers are taught that "No one else out there has the rightly-divided Word." Followers have been convinced and reinforce with each other and themselves that "there's nothing else out there." They are convinced that they are in God's only TRUE ministry and that anything else is second-rate and counterfeit. Way followers have been taught, convince each other, and themselves, that those in leadership positions above them have been placed there by God. That even though they are human and therefore flawed, followers are still required to be obedient without question according to "The Word." TWI teaches that because God saw fit to choose them and set them where they are, so they should be obeyed without question. Way followers have been taught, convinced, and reinforce with each other and themselves, that these "gift ministries" are there for our benefit, and for us to obey, because "The Word Says" that they "bear not the sword in vain." In other words, there are consequences for disobedience. When we "obey" these leaders, we "grow up into Him," so of course, we all want to grow up into Christ and avoid the wrath of the minister, so we all obey, without question. Questions from the very beginning in TWI are not allowed. Well, lets say, certain questions. You will know what is allowed and not allowed by the response you get in asking. If questions are likely to contradict established teaching, or delve into matters TWI doesn't want to discuss, they are deferred to leadership or answered with another question to deflect attention away from glaring errors or contradictions. Persistence along this vein will get you the bum's rush or worse. Followers are taught specifically about "spiritual boundaries" and staying on the "right path," or "highway of holiness" in order to remain in God's favor and out of harm's way. This pathway is understood to be staying within the teachings of The Way International and the guidance of it's ministers. Followers are convinced, reinforce it with each other, and reinforce with themselves through classes, teachings, private study, and retemories, that safety is only possible within the boundaries of what they have been taught by their leadership. Followers have been repeatedly taught that the only thing that awaits them outside The Nine Dots Of Nonsense are tragic consequences. A good Way follower does not question his leadership or the direction which comes from TWI headquarters. This direction is not questioned publicly in meetings, nor is it questioned privately between "good" Way followers, nor does the "good" Way follower even allow himself the luxury of entertaining such a question in his own mind. He is bound by FEAR to stay within the Nine Dots of Nonsense that TWI has dictated for him, not allowing himself to consider he has options outside the "household of The Way" other than spiritual, physical, emotional, and financial devastation. Followers of The Way International are bound by FEAR within The Nine Dots Of Nonsense taught by The Way International. But they will never admit it to themselves. Why? They cannot. Fear is the believer's only enemy. Fear defeats the promises of God. Fear is believing in reverse. Fear is a spiritual prison. Fear is a devil spirit. Good Way Followers are not allowed to have FEAR. A good Way Follower simply refuses to look outside those nine dots. He is totally unable to see things other than how The Way International sees them for him. However, the follower sees all the "freedom" he has to question-- WITHIN THE NINE DOTS He has all the freedom to think and use his brain-- WITHIN THE NINE DOTS He has all the abundance and safety God promises-- ONLY WITHIN THE NINE DOTS Except, WHAT IF he lacks abundance? WHAT IF he lacks health? WHAT IF he finds he is not really safe? WHAT ABOUT the apparent contradictions he sees in the doctrine and practice of the ministry? He is only allowed to seek answers for those questions WITHIN THE NINE DOTS OF NONSENSE. While believing he is bringing God's brightest light to the world by witnessing for his ministry, the Good Way Follower is locked into a mindset that holds him captive from being able to see that he is in complete darkness. If the light you have is darkness, said Jesus, then HOW GREAT IS THAT DARKNESS!

Yep, so much for the "Prevailing Household" in this "Decade of The Prevailing Word" or some such nonsense. The ONLY place the honchos at TWI can "prevail" is over the minds of the people whom they hold captive via FEAR. They know that the moment they or their followers allow their minds outside the nine dots of nonsense they have been deceived into believing is the truth, they are absolutely defeated. The BOD prevail over the Corps, the Corps prevail over the peons, and the peons are used and abused.