Catcup

I'm sorry mstar-- the "rank unbeliever therapist" was tongue in cheek, and I understand how it can be perceived here. I should have given you the context in which I first gave that advice, which at the time was appropriate. I apologize. "Rank unbeliever" is a phrase still frequently used in conservative Christian circles outside The Way International. This term is especially used by controlling religious people particularly when warning against associating with or opening your life to people who are not Christian, or who do not believe the same things they want you to believe. I recently had a client (not involved in TWI or on this board in any way-- was attending an oppressive church) who was told by his pastor that the only therapist he should EVER consider was a "Good Christian Counselor," that he should NEVER seek the advice of a "rank unbeliever therapist" and that he should NEVER take medications of any sort since it was against God's law. The man was really torn about his decision after speaking to his pastor, and felt condemned about his choices, though he was being helped by his current therapy and medications. I told him it didn't matter what kind of counselor he chose, whether it was a so-called good Christian Counselor, a good Jewish Counselor, or even a good rank unbeliever Counselor, just get to a good counselor! And if he is prescribed medication, that he should take it and God does not love him any less for it. It is dangerous and irresponsible to suggest to a person who has been prescribed medication, to not take it. The attitudes of conservative Christianity many times mix with those of TWI and this is one area where it does, and it does so to the detriment and sometimes even the peril of many people in TWI and other churches which could be considered oppressive and controlling. I see so many people who are manipulated by churches via guilt and condemnation. Manipulated into doing things against their own best interest.

Belle, what a quote! You know, if you can get through something on your own, more power to you. That's great. If praying gets you through it, I'm all for that. Terrific. But if you do need talk therapy and medication to get you through a rough patch, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it, and God doesn't love you any less for it. For anyone to insinuate like TWI does in that quote and has elsewhere, that talk therapy is unnecessary for anyone, and that you are "paying someone to be your friend," is bogus advice in an effort order to control you. If you want a friend, get a friend. But a therapist is NEVER your friend. And a friend can NEVER DO what a therapist does. They might be able to be a sounding board for you, but they are NOT a therapist if they have not been trained. Therapists are highly trained professionals paid for their expertise to help you get back on your feet, and work to advocate for your best interest as an objective party. Friends are not always objective. Nor are all Christians. To insinuate like TWI and some other so-called Christian groups do, that someone who has been prescribed medication should dump it out because God frowns on pharmakeia, is not only irresponsible, but this is Manipulation via Condemnation. Studies have shown that talk therapy combined with medication gives better results than talk therapy alone, whether you get it from a therapist, a Christian Counselor, or a rank unbeliever therapist, or just advice from a friend. But for someone who has been prescribed medication to not take it, is more dangerous than to have talk therapy alone. If you got healed without meds, I'm happy for you. But if you were prescribed them, you should take them regardless of what your church or TWI buddies tell you. I have seen a man, because of pressure to "do the Word," declare he was healed and dump out his meds, and then go out and tear up a restaurant and land in jail, because he went manic. This is not unique just to TWI. It seems to be a right-wing conservative religion thing. If you have been prescribed medication, it is in your best interest to take it according to the prescription. If you need it, it does NOT mean you are spiritually weak. It is NOT contrary to God's Will for you to get the help you need. God does NOT love you any less for it.

You're very lucky to have each other, and to have this understanding. There are so many people who don't, and they break each other's spirit. It is a sad, sad, thing to witness.

Control is what it has always been about in TWI and in some other places. And if they can't control you, then you are a danger to what they represent. If you cannot be controlled as a couple, then Divide and Conquer becomes the name of the game where these people are concerned, like the man who went behind Tumbleweed's back to his wife. The game is so old, but it can work so well, unless you get wise real quick, and present a united front against those who would attack you from without in order to divide, conquer, and control you.

I don't know why it is some people find it so disturbing that two people can be married and have vastly different opinions on some important subjects, yet still get along harmoniously and love each other deeply. I had high level leaders telling me our marriage was full of confusion. Well, we weren't the ones confused. We each knew exactly what the other was doing. The leadership was confused, because it made it that much more difficult to nail us down and pidgeonhole us.

In order to give Belle's thread (WayBrain) the due respect it deserves, I am going to give this subject it's own thread. There are some folks laboring under the assumption that my marriage works the way a Way marriage or some other so-called "Christian" marriages work, and have made incorrect assumptions about both me and my husband. There are others who because of the vast differences of interests between my husband and myself, believe that we are actually divorced. Excerpted from Belle's thread: From Smurfette: "Not to derail..but just because Geek is listed, doesnt mean Catcup is involved...Now if their were teachings with HER name on cff website...then that would be a different story." Thanks Smurfette. I'm taking a risk by opening the way my husband and I conduct our marriage, but maybe someone will learn something. I'm not opening it up for you to pick apart. This is simply our personal "proper arrangement by deliberate decision:" This might be kind of embarassing for you (HCW), but here goes: Geek is not my "X." Ok, so don't be embarassed anymore. Next month we will be very happily married for 27 years. However, many people make the mistake of believing (as The Way International believes) that the husband and wife must have the same belief system. The expectation is that the wife must be under the thumb of the husband and submit to whatever his decisions and beliefs are, regardless of her own values and life preferences. Our marriage differs from what people used to Way marriages expect. It always has, from the very beginning. However, before we married, we discussed everything from soup to nuts, our goals for ourselves and our family, and decided how we would run things in our marriage, and in our family. BEFORE we walked down the aisle. We have followed our plan and it has worked for us, despite every effort from Way and Way-brained people to thwart it. We are a team, and work together as a team, and do not have an oppressive arrangement as TWI and even other Christian groups suggest marriage to be. This allows us to have and pursue differing views and interests. This has always, always pi$$ed off people in The Way International, because we agreed together between ourselves how we would conduct our marriage (by the way, isn't that what TWI taught hupotasso was: a proper arrangement by deliberate decision), and it rubbed many, many people the wrong way. Especially men who are of the more controlling nature, felt my husband should limit my voice and my choice. Our arrangement has also inspired jealousy in wives who would have rather had more of a voice and a few more choices in their own marriages. I have sat through many a meeting where I was told I was ruining my husband's ministry-- during one such meeting I told the entire room full of people: "***** you, I don't want anything to do with your ministry in this state and region!" and my husband and I walked out-- Together. I have also had limb leader's wives call me up on the phone to tell me that I "...ought to be a more quieter wife with my husband" or "be more like Mrs. Wierwille." To which I informed them that if everyone was like Mrs. W. it would make for a pretty boring world—- not to say she was boring, but if we were all the same and not allowed to express our individuality, it would be. And, I instructed them not to dare call me up again to try to "reprove" me, unless they had a valid point to make. I have had several ordained clergy try to sow seeds of discord and doubt in my marriage by accusing my husband to me falsely, and he has had the same from his end. I have had very well-known and very well-respected Way Ministry leadership (including M*l & J*n Ge*rge, M*rk & J*sephine W*ll*ce, L*rry & C*nnie P*n*rello) try to insert themselves into our family life and try to make decisions for us regarding our daughter, and we refused to allow them to do it. Through it all, we have stuck together, and stuck with our personally predetermined design of our marriage. I'm not saying everyone ought to run their marriage the way we do ours. That's between each couple to decide. But ours has worked for us. I am sorry it pi$$es so many people off, but they need to get over it, not us. I still get flack from people on this forum who don’t understand our marriage, because it doesn’t work they way they THINK it should. These folks seem to be under the Way-brained assumption that just because my husband has decided to be involved in Christian Family Fellowship, teach classes for them, teach Sunday mornings for them, and hold a fellowship in our home, that somehow, I certainly must be directly involved myself— especially since I have been to several CFF family reunions, occasionally go when my husband teaches on a Sunday morning, and truly enjoy the company of some of the good folks who are directly involved with Christian Family Fellowship. Why, there is no way that in any kind of marriage, that I would NOT be involved in the same ministry, for the simple fact that my husband is involved, right? And you simply cannot enjoy hanging out with people with whom you do not always agree on every little thing, right? WRONG. I am an independent person with interests and opinions sometimes vastly different than my husband. So what? My interests are my business. I have the freedom to pursue mine, and he has the freedom to pursue his. That does not negate our trust in and love for each other, that we have grown and nurtured for more than 27 years. And we will not allow anyone, and I do mean anyone, to divide us one from the other, or play each against the other, by attempting to toy with us on this board, or elsewhere. If you have a beef with me, talk with me, don’t take it up with my husband. And don’t derail someone else’s thread in order to carry out your agenda. If you have a question regarding my husband and what he thinks/feels/is doing/or what his interests are, then ask him. We each have and pursue our own interests, and allow each other the right to a difference of opinion or point of view. I know that flies in the face of what TWI and some ex TWI consider as a Christian or “godly” marriage, but it’s ours, and it works for us and for our family. I’m sorry if it doesn’t meet with some folks' expectations, but they don't live with us-- thank God. Anybody else out there have similar experiences?

Belle, I am glad that this therapy works for you. Far more people need it than actually take it, but the outcomes for those who follow through with both talk therapy and a course of medication are much better than for those who do not.

I spoke referring to my field of practice and study. If you want to argue the cause for God to be able to cure it, go right ahead. I am sure He can. But I know several people who have "prayed" and "believed" that still suffer from it-- And those who could benefit from a little course of medical therapy in order to get some relief from the symptoms in order to begin to address the thought processes.

This post deserves a thread of it's own. Maybe I will, maybe I won't. I'm thinking on it...

That is exactly what I did. It was not well received. However, like I said previously, that's not my problem, it is his. Also, I well understand PTSD. This happens to be my field. And, I recognized what it was for what it is. Unfortunately for many people with PTSD, especially when it is undiagnosed, they cannot, in the middle of an episode, make the distinction between what is really happening and what is going on in their minds. And unfortunately for anyone in their path, at times the emotion of what is going on in their minds is incorrectely transferred to the wrong person. Talk therapy and sometimes medication (yes) can make a significant difference in reduction of the intensity of the episodes, and an increased ability to separate the episode from the reality of the situation. Unfortunately there is no cure. Just learning to deal with what comes up so that you can minimize the effects.

Actually, the tactic of rephrasing questions which have already been asked and answered, is a classic inquest technique. This is not the first time the person in question has exhibited this behavior to me, or elsewhere on this forum. The issue with Song and that Song has lies far beyond the subject of this thread. That is why it has been requested to be addressed via Private Topic.

HCW I truthfully answered his question the first time he asked it. He could not accept it as the truth. He continued to ask the same question several different ways, derailing the thread and behaving in a way I and others found objectionable. Pushing buttons? Yes, it is annoying when you tell someone the truth and they won't accept it, and continue to badger you-- whether you've ever been in The Way International or not. That has nothing to do with "WayBrain." But if he doesn't like the truth, that's his problem and not mine. This is not the first time he has done this, and I am not the only person whom he has harassed in this manner. Anything further on this discussion should be done through Private Topic, which Belle has requested. I think we should honor her request. This is a serious thread.

Correctomundo my friend.

VP actually scored tickets to the Reagan innauguration. How? I don't know, probably he or TWI made a significant contribution to his campaign? Vic and the Mrs. got all dolled up. The Mooncotch family of Chicago bought Mrs. a beautiful green velvet gown (the one she wore in the oil painting of her that's in the WOW auditorium-- those paintings were donated by Mooncotch as well). She was loaned furs & jewelry. Vic got all spiffed out in a top hat and tails. Other than suit rentals, jet fuel, and hotel rooms and food for the entourage, everything else was donated or loaned by believers. They attended the innauguration in memorable style. There are several balls in DC during an innauguration, and the new President & First Lady usually stop by each one for a spin on the floor, but usually don't stay at any of them for very long, except for the final one which you have to have some top-level clearance to be invited to. I doubt that is the one that the Wierwille's went to. I heard also, that not only Tricky Vic was there, but also Sun Myung Moon et al and some Scientology Hoity-Toities. So I really do think it had something to do with a campaign donation.

JL-- my toes are just fine. ;)--> No damage done here. And Belle is correct about that other category. There are an entire subset of people who knew what was going on, and sold their souls in order to keep their jobs-- Not to mention the class of people who believed what Martindale and Wierwille was doing was not only ok, but biblically permissable! This class of people have no conscience and cannot be trusted. They would sell the house right out from under their own mother to give it to The Way, for self-preservation and self-gratification.

It was part of an entire package of right-wing conspiracy theories regarding the Jews being behind the scenes manipulators of finances and world economies. A bunch of racist hype that was (probably still is) popular back in the mid-70's. Billy Graham even bought into some of it for a while-- he was recorded having a conversation with Richard Nixon regarding such issues of Jewish control, for which he eventually apologized. I bought several of those books and it got me on a mailing list for the Spotlight-- a notorious racist rag which was quite embarassing to have delivered to my door-- especially when I lived in a racially mixed community in Chicago.

If you do know what is going on, what would be the reasons to be quiet? In order to safely get your family out of harm's way first. To do what you can first to try to save your marriage, or your children, your brother, or your sister, and get them out of danger. Once that is accomplished, or if you find they will not listen to you, you need to get out and speak out.

But I do agree: If you knew about it-- and I mean you knew with certainty and not via rumor-- yet said nothing, you succumbed to cowardice and helped facilitate the molestation and abuse.

There were people who spoke up before. But TWI has very effective ways of dealing with whistle-blowers. When I was at Emporia, I walked in on two people who were married (but not to each other) in each other's arms, lying together on the floor of an isolated room in Kenyon Hall. I immediately went to the assistant Corps director (the actual CD was out of town) and told him what I found. The couples were met with, and the next thing I knew, I was turned on and accused of things I did not do. At HQ and other places, many other people who found out about sexual misconduct or whose wives were the victims of sexual misconduct, confronted top leadership. However, they were immediately isolated and eliminated before they could have any impact upon "the household." Many of the people who were regularly defamed at HQ lunch announcements and Corps nights, were people who had stood up face to face to the powers that be over some of these sexual issues, and were fired and defamed. The moment LCM would be confronted, he would have the Safety department immediately escort that person off grounds. Safety would be immediately posted to supervise that person's bum's rush out of HQ. While one person was still confronting the offending party, their spouse would be immediately isolated by the armed Safety department. They each would be isolated so no one could get to them and ask them any questions, nor could they talk to each other. Pressure would be applied to both parties to be quiet (with a bribe). Failing that, pressure would be put on the marriage, usually to get the woman to stay (of course) and get the man to leave (See Driven To Suicide). Failing even that, they would both be quickly dispatched. In any case, they were immediately totally isolated and escorted by the Safety department so they could not talk to anyone else and explain their sudden departure. Their belongings would be packed up and pushed to the street within hours, sometmes minutes. At the very next meal or even sooner, the person or the couple would be denounced as "possessed," leaving everyone astounded, and afraid to contact them for fear of being influenced by devil spirits. Paul Allen was simply the wrong man for LCM to try to mess with. Paul had seen this bum's rush happen many times before, and knew what to do to avoid it. As soon as he found out what LCM had done, he immediately went into action. He secured his wife first and packed up his belongings quickly and quietly, and got her off grounds and secretly sequestered away as soon as possible so no one could get to her, before anyone could be alerted. Only then did he go straight to LCM and confront him. After unsuccessfully trying to bribe and then intimidate Paul into silence during the confrontation, Martindale defamed the Allens immediately. But, the cat was out of the bag. The rest is history. But, there were many who went before him who were either bribed, or if they stood up against it, were immediately and profoundly isolated from the "household" and defamed.

Methinks he just doesn't want to think about it anymore. I think we gave him a major pain.

Thank you Belle. This subject deserves serious consideration. And thanks again to Groucho, who gave me some help when I posted on this thread what happened to me in the medical ed seminar.

That is the million dollar question. You still got one, Bob? Or was it one of the casualties of the war you wage against God's people?

All from Song on the previous page: "So How is Geek? Still rumbling around in Tipp?" "How Is Rev Shroyer doing?" "But I think you know Shroyer better than I these days. I have reason to think you are involved in his ministry!" "It's just if someone leaves TWI and becomes involved in a splinter group seems suspicious/questionable appearing on a thread "Controlling Way Brain" Know what I mean Catcup?" Hmmm So you not involved with high profile splinter group called you know? "...come on Catcup you know what i am saying to you" "Catcup , i understand that you deny your involvement with a splinter group TWI?" "CFF" "Catcup, You can truthfully say you are not in any way involved with a ministry via John Shroyer?" Since I truthfully answered the first question and you continue to follow me around asking the same question in various ways, I do think this is sounding more and more like an inquisition. I would hate to think you are so dense you cannot read my clear response, or are so intent on an inquisition that you refuse to accept the truth when someone tells it to you.

What about it?

I truthfully answered your question, Song. I can't help it if you cannot accept the answer.