Catcup

I agree that the body of Christ as God's design is perfect. And it works perfectly when people work together, as God intended. But when fallible human beings, who make up this body, fail to function as God designed, then there are problems galore, as addressed by Paul in Corinthians. And I agree that imposing a man-made design upon the body of Christ that contradicts and works at counter-purposes with what God intended, only fouls up the works even further.

All organizations designed by men, or in which humans participate, have the possibility of error, because they are designed by or led by or made up of imperfect human beings. If you don't believe that the body of Christ is included in that scenario, and is susceptible to a down side, you need to read Corinthians again. Corinthians was written partly to reprove those who were followers of men, and were cutting one another out of the fellowship, maiming the Body of Christ: "And they eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee.." This is exactly what the Corinthians were doing. See I Cor. 1:10-12, and 12:15ff. This is exactly what The Way International practices. They reverence men, lauding that person's abilities, contradict their own doctrine in their practice of leadership infallibility, and cut one another out of the fellowship. Anyone who attributes infallibility to another human being, to an organization of any kind made up of humans, or is a human who presents himself as infallible, has fools for idols and followers. Most of us here have been there, and do not desire to repeat the experience.

I'm sure Mr. Linder relays whatever messages he deems are important. And even though TWI highly discourages lurking at this site, we know that folks do anyway. Just in case you're looking, Bob, are you still treating people like they are a piece of used furniture?

Oh yeah, that's furreal.

yeah honestly I do think they could care less if somone who disagreed with them died.. in fact I think they would count it as a reward. As a matter of fact, yes, I remember a certain advanced class "spayshull" (1992?) during which Fartindale spewed out precisely such hate, when teaching about "turning people over to the devil." He said he WISHED God would give him revelation regarding specific people who had left the ministry, that he could turn them over to the devil and they would physically DIE. --And yes, it would be a reward-worthy action to turn over to the devil for the destruction of the flesh, such a "traitor against God." Craig said they so disgusted God, that they actually "wagged their penises in God's face." And he said those people deserved to die. He said it several times... and he said it regarding Way Corps who no longer tolerated his BS and left. Those who no longer "stood" with TWI. So, yeah, the head honcho's wish was if you didn't buy his line of bull****, he wanted you dead. And he was very public about it-- in front of several thousand people.

Yes, I am sure that at the time he said it, he meant the program itself, and not the people in it. However, it is interesting to note that over the years, that is the attitude those in charge eventually adopted, especially Martindale. We owed our very lives to the mean*is*try, and they could have cared less about us.

I'm with Raf. Every person who ever was a part of TWI and left, is an offshoot. But I am assuming you define an offshoot as an actual organization formed primarily of people who used to belong to a previous organization. I believe each one should be judged upon it's own merits. Each one is different. And, each person in the organization is different. Every organization, no matter what it is, whether business or religion, charity or for profit, has it's positives and negatives, upsides and downsides. Lumping them all together and pidgeonholing them doesn't sort all that out. Categorizing them all one way or another doesn't give an accurate evaluation, IMO. What they are or are not, and what they can or cannot do for an individual depends upon a lot of variables. if twi is "bad," what makes an offspring "good" Maybe tossing out the bad stuff and starting from scratch on those particular issues is an improvement. is one needed for a transitional departure? I don't believe it is absolutely necessary, depending on the individual. Some folks might benefit with one, some without it. a lifetime ? Not necessarily. Although some may wish to. how does wierwille fit into the mix ? I don't think he has to. IMO, tossing the old ideology and terminology out and starting from scratch is the best way to go. If you do that, and begin true independent research, if what you "threw out" was actually truth, you will run across it again as truth. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater is ok. Contrary to some folks' fears, the baby is too big to go down the drain, if there was one to begin with... are they better / worse / either / neither / than a church ? Yes. is it just an individual walk with god ? Absolutely.

Ever wonder what it was? Victor Paul Wierwille outlined it for us from the very beginning. At the dedication of The Way Corps in August of 1969, he laid it out for us right then and there, exactly what he expected and what we could expect out of it: "The purpose of The Way Corps is that the realization again comes in your hearts and in the lives of the people that man does not live by bread alone but by every word which proceedeth out of the mouth of God. "Our great joy in the Corps is to understand what we read. And we're going to understand it so well that we can communicate it to somebody else who wants to understand it too. And the reward of this Corps is the exceeding greatness of God's Word and His power that's available. If that isn't enough the Corps can die." In other words, Your purpose is that you get it through your head and the heads of your people that your very lives depend upon every single word that emerges from my pie hole, because I've already told you by now, and you believe that "the Word is the ministry, and the ministry is the Word." Your joy is to bust your foot and discipline yourself to comprehend what we tell you the Word says so well that you can feed it to the next gullible person. Your only reward for all of the work we expect you to do in sacrificing your family, your finances, your selves, and the best and most productive years of your youth and your life to our organization, is a bouquet of intangible promises we cannot guarantee. If that's not good enough for you, then you can just shrivel up and die, because we just don't give a damn about you.

"Owe no man any thing but to love one another." Seems to me, by the measure of that verse of scripture, Mr. Moneyhands et al of TWI, are very much in debt, and deeper than they know.

The people who know their higher-ups are screwed up and try to stay to "protect" the people under them, are bound up in error, good though their hearts may be. Their efforts are thwarted for the most part, because they are not only misled, but are misleading others. Rather than leading their flock away from danger, they are actually shepherding them right into into the wolf's den and trying to protect them there. People stay in for a lot of different reasons, some being family, others for friends. But by and large, the main reason people want to "stay there" and "make a difference" is because they have bought the line from TWI that "there is nothing else out there." Bottom line, that is staying "in" out of fear. Fear of leaving everything you've known for years. Fear of leaving the only friends you've got (a true test of their friendship is how they treat you AFTER you leave). Fear of leaving "God's chosen ministry." Fear that you've fallen out of God's good graces because you are no longer in "the household." Those fears are what make people stay in there and try to fix the devil's house with the tools he's loaned them-- while he sits back and howls with laughter.

I think it is a pipe dream for anyone to go through the Way Corps training, especially nowadays, and think they can possibly "make a difference." That is, if you define making a difference as changing the fossilized erroneous practices that have become doctrine at The Way International, into something godly and productive. Many have tried for decades to do it, and have failed. People who go into the Corps training with the view to get trained and then "fix" TWI are doomed from the get-go. One reason? I think Albert Einstein had a clue: "You cannot solve a problem with the same level of thinking that created it."

Absolutely beautiful, diazbro. Thanks.

WB-- Geek and I certainly do not need a mediator. I'm not sure, but I think Song's main issue is with Shroyer himself, and perhaps that's what he is trying to resolve. Maybe he and Geek can do that. I told Song in my above post I wouldn't mind getting together with just him and my husband. The rest of this should be done PT.

Song-- If you would like to get together with Geek and Shroyer, contact Shroyer at CFF and Research Geek via PT to see if it is possible during the time frame you will be traveling through the state, for Shroyer to meet with you and for Geek to take that kind of time off work. I'm not sure when you would be coming, or what Geek's schedule would be at that time. We live some 4-5 hours from Tipp City. To go there would require Geek taking at least a day or so off from work considering round trip travel time. I wouldn't mind meeting with you if my husband is present, but since I am not directly involved with CFF, I probably would not be there with Geek and Shroyer unless you specifically request my presence.

I haven't yet read any of the others, but The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse really opened my eyes. It also allowed me to see that it wasn't just The Way International that was spiritually abusive, but even mainstream churches can and do fall into the same abusive habit patterns, doing just as much damage to people who put too much of their trust in the wrong folks. I'd recommend anything by Maya Angelou as well. I met her several years ago. As a person who survived sexual abuse among other hardships, she is a great example, at least to me, of refusing to be a victim, and overcoming seemingly insurmountable obstacles.

I think the insurance company would have trouble even if TWI had Craig on staff cleaning toilets. He would still be a person with admitted sexually predatory behavior towards women. After what he admitted to and the insurance company paid out on, they would be would be crazy to underwrite that.

About 5 years before I left TWI, during a time when Geek and I were helping a "very thankful" Craig with research, I had an extremely vivid nightmare, where I was in a huge public meeting in the auditorium, and Craig was on stage, tearing me to pieces, visciously shouting lies about me to everyone. It was breaking my heart and humiliating to be sitting there with everyone staring at me while Craig shouted his lies. I woke up and found I had tears streaming down my face and my pillow was soaked through with tears. I thought it was just the devil trying to mess with me. Surely Craig would never say such lies about me and do so in such a public manner. Then just 5 years later... Go figure. The psychologist in me says my subconscious was warning me of dangers my conscious mind was refusing to recognize. The spiritual person in me says God was trying to warn me about a man I should never trust. Fast forward to several years after I left: One night I dreamed Craig was teaching in the auditorium, and I walked in from the back, down the aisle, and was taking people in the audience by the hand and leading them out of the building one by one. Craig was fuming and spitting, and the "bless patrol" folks were there, but their feet were glued to the floor and they could not move. They were shouting ugly lies and accusations, but were greatly frustrated and embarassed at being utterly powerless to stop me from leading people out of the building. Talk about a power shift! I liked that dream!

I think Craig would like nothing more than to come back "home" and be the mogfodat again. However, if he ever did, The Way International would lose it's insurance carrier. They've already had to pay out on two lawsuits regarding his uncontrolled sexual behavior. Craig admitted in deposition what he did and with whom, where, and how many times he did it. How that came to be is a hoot, but can't be talked about here. It is no coincidence that immediately after that depo, he was given his walking papers. But I'm sure he had a 14K gold parachute. I'm sure he'd like to be back, and I'm sure they'd like to have him back. I truly believe the only thing stopping it is the insurance issue. They know there will be no end to the lawsuits if they let him in the door again. So for the moment, they are stuck with things as they are. But don't think for a second that they aren't trying to figure out a way to get it done.

I have had several people (both ex-TWI and those who've never been TWI) ask me why in the world would I sell this stuff and not just throw it away. I sold some of this stuff for my elderly parents, who put the money to good use. They have to buy some awfully expensive medicines. Plus, I have a daughter in college---$$$. The real question is, what kind of person buys it? I am sure that there are lots of folks who "want to be like Mike." But there are others: People looking to replace their lost WOW pins or Holy Spirit Doves because of what they still represent to them. I have met folks who bought up my old Way material or people I gave Way materials to because they: *liked the music on the SNS tapes *liked some of the "other" teachers on the SNS tapes *have bookselling companies and deal in used religious books and tapes in general *collect quirky religious books and items from various religions and/or cults *use the items as examples in cult recovery libraries *use them in lawsuits against TWI I also met an absolutely wonderful woman who bought up my syllabi, PFAL books, photos, and other Way memorabilia. She emailed me and told me she understood how so many people had been terribly hurt by TWI but she tries to cling to the good things she experienced there with her mother, and thanked me for making it possible to purchase these things. She said she was raised in TWI and later left. But her mother passed away, and having these things from TWI around her, made her feel closer somehow to her Mom, because these things meant so much to her. God later worked through this lady to remind me of His goodness and mercy-- twice, without any prompting whatsoever-- out of the clear blue sky-- this woman sent me flowers because all she knew was, "God wanted this done." What she did not know at the time, is that both days she did this-- a month or so apart-- I had a particular agonizing event occur which hurt me terribly. And I came home to flowers from a total stranger, reminding me that God cares and understands. She also sent me a music tape of just one particular song. The words of this song got me through a life-threatening surgery-- I listened to it constantly for 3 weeks beforehand. It was the last thing I heard before undergoing general anesthesia, and those words gave me the peace and confidence that I would make it through. And I did. I thanked her for it. And I've never heard from her again. But I'll never, ever forget how God worked through her, to remind me of His love and extend to me His peace. You sure can meet some good folks on the internet.

I sold my WOW pins (first year and second year) for about $5.00 each, I believe. I did get an email from someone who could not understand why I would sell them. He called them "spiritual Olympic Gold." A lot of folks, maybe most, who went out WOW Ambassador, were fairly new to TWI and signed up out of the pureness of a heart-felt calling to serve people the bread of life. It was not easy by any means. So many people not only answered the call that year to truly serve God, but also got their first taste of reality when their good intentions and hearts of love for God and His people, were crushed by heavy-handed leadership, stupidity, and cruel abuse. To me, it's less of an Olympic Gold, but rather a Purple Heart. And I can understand why a person would want to keep it, even after leaving TWI, for all the good things it represented regarding their own true commitment to serve God and His people, regardless or even in spite, of what happened to them. I answered the gentleman who emailed me the question about why I would sell them thusly: I no longer wear them, and they have sat in my jewelry box for years, unused. While I am proud of my service, I look forward to receiving my reward for that service at the Bema. Perhaps there is someone out there who earned his or her WOW pin, and lost it somewhere, and would like to replace it. I am offering them the opportunity to get back something they maybe thought was gone forever. Good luck with your auction.

Song-- What would it take for us to get along? Get off my back about my husband's interests, and Believe me the FIRST time I tell you the truth, instead of following me around repeatedly asking the same questions and making insinuations that throw threads off track.

Oak-- No, sorry, I was being facetious.

I'm sorry, I must have missed something somewhere. We're now talking about driver's licenses? Yes, I have the same right to post here that you do. If Pawtucket believes I am crossing the line on anything I post, I'm sure he would let me know. So far, no complaints from him or any of the other moderators.

Geek and I have always been quite different from each other. As a matter of fact, when our engagement was announced, a scream went up over the entire assembled crowd at the Christmas party in 1977 because no one would have ever put us together-- a lot of people actually thought it was a joke. Even Wierwille was surprised-- I was later taken to task by a roommate who said VP wanted engaged couples to come to him for his "blessing" before publicly announcing their engagement. I told her that was news to me! When I first saw Geek in residence, I told friends of mine that he would be the last person in The Corps I would ever marry. He was such a nerd. Totally and altogether different from myself. We have a great laugh about it now, because he is :D-->the last person I married! Our relationship was based first and primarily on friendship, nothing more, nothing less. We were friends for a long time before we were anything else together. That has stood us in good stead over the years. We do have many interests that we share, however. We enjoy architectural restoration, having restored a 6-flat brownstone together in Chicago and helped neighbors in rejuvenating an old neighborhood, and chased the gangs out of it. We later designed and installed our own kitchen in a house in Indiana, which we enjoyed immensely-- that leads into another of our shared interests: Cooking. In that kitchen we made sure to put in two separate work areas each with it's own sink and garbage disposals, so we could both work and cook simultaneously without getting in each other's way. One of our favorite shows to watch together is Iron Chef. We get a kick out of that one. I've written a cookbook, and am currently doing another from Geek's family recipes dating from the mid-1800's. We also enjoy good R&B, Jazz, history, antiqueing (Geek & I love Antique RoadShow)gardening, conservation, wildlife, and nature in general. I am involved in feline rescue. While Geek is not particularly interested in that work, he does love our cats! Among other places we part ways: Star Trek, Deep Space Nine, and whatever other TV Space series there are out there. I will occasionally sit with him and space out :)--> while he watches a movie, but the weirdest thing happens... usually when I choose to do that, the re-run comes on where the crew is stuck in a time warp loop-- kind of eerie! --But I do like Star Wars. I'm an organized person. He's not (I'm being kind here :P--> ). I am close to my siblings and my family. His family isn't close. So he's closer to my famiy than his own. I could go on. The thing is, we allow each other room to be who we want to be, and we know each other well enough to trust and believe in each other. That's the most important thing.

CW-- yeah, I know. As a side note: Pro-mul-gate According to the second usage recorded in Merriam-Webster's tenth edition Collegiate Dictionary: 2a: to make known or public the terms of (a proposed law) 2b: to put (a law) into action or force. The law that marriage for Way Followers is legitimate only if both husband and wife agree on every little detail was made known or public to both The Way Corps and the general body of believers by the BOT/BOD of The Way International via Corps teachings, classes, Sunday Teaching Services, area, state, branch, and home fellowships, and private counsel. This law was put into action or force by The Way International by forcing their way into the lives, bedrooms, and even private thoughts of innocent people.