Catcup

My ears were burning, so I thought I'd show up here before I go on another hiatus (back to school). Please keep in mind, as I share my point of view, that I am NOT personally involved in running a fellowship. Like IGotOut, I enjoy going to the reunion and fellowshipping with the folks there that I know. I will tell you what I have personally observed firsthand. Your mileage may vary. As for how CFF treats women, they recently ordained a woman. And I'm sure they enjoy what this woman contributes so much, they'll probably do it again (a different woman ;)-->). How they treat the children, I don't know. The ones I saw at the reunion seem pretty happy. My daughter will be a "teen vet" this year (turning 20), so I don't know much about their children's fellowship. But I do know from my own daughter having attended several of their teen camps, that she had a blast every time. As far as I can tell at the moment, CFF is not a performace based ministry a la TWI. In other words, they don't require a whole lot out of people. They haven't stuck their noses in my business where they don't belong (Of course they'd lose it if they did :P-->), and they are consipicuously absent in poking and prodding into my life. CFF leaves it up to the individual how they want to conduct their own fellowship. You can be as involved or uninvolved as you want to be, and no one should bug you about it. I know that is how it has been for me. I pretty much do what I want. Of course, I'd do whatever I wanted regardless . As I have posted on this site, I'm not much involved in the fellowship, although my husband has one in our home. Occasionally I do attend, but usually I'm doing homework or otherwise occupied. My husband is notoriously very "relaxed" about the way he conducts fellowship-- people aren't castigated for being late, for instance. Occasionally my husband is even late for his own meeting-- he'll try to call me first though, so I can let people know! Nor do we call people up and require their presence. We're glad to see them when they come. Also, we may spontaneously decide to serve dinner, dessert, or coffee to everyone DURING the meeting. Sometimes there is singing, sometimes not. There is always prayer, and usually manifestations, but they do not follow a predictable "order of service." As a huge departure from the way TWI has always run things, my husband allows people to interrupt him with questions DURING his teaching, and conducts more of a forum for discussion rather than TWI-style "teachings." I believe in order to do that, it takes more flexibility, preparation, knowlege, and humility on the part of the teacher, than to sit there autocratically and expect everyone to accept what you are pushing without question. That format also enables the hearer to exercise his own thought processes... something TWI is not willing to allow a person to do, and I think it is very necessary, especially in cult recovery. You need to find your brain, think with it, and ask questions. When I attend, I am known for occasionally interrupting my husband and adding a point or two of my own, or asking probing questions to stimulate thinking if I have an opposing view to the one being presented, and people who come are always welcome to follow suit. You'll never find THAT allowed in TWI... And by the way, I believe that it takes a leader confident in his abilities and a leader of humility, to be still and allow someone else to speak if they are so inspired. You don't have that in TWI. The spirits of the prophets are subject to the leadership. That's why they have all been silenced or run off. As far as approval seeking behavior, I personally am not a person who seeks approval-- I don't feel I need anyone else's verification of my worthiness as a human being. Apparently, CFF doesn't nurture the kind of behavior that encourages approval seeking. They want you to grow up and make your own decisions in life with a mature outlook, from the standpoint of The Word of God. As far as legalism is concered, since CFF doesn't require much out of people, I wouldn't consider them legalistic. Like I stated before, they are not intrusive into your personal business. They expect you to be honest and handle your own life responsibly, but will counsel you if you ask. As for giving, we don't send in money from our fellowship (we don't collect money from people, either) and CFF has never asked us for any. But if anyone in our fellowship has a financial need (or otherwise) everyone chips in and helps out if they can. There are fellowships, though, who regularly share financially with CFF, though there are no requirements I am aware of other than it be given willingly and not of necessity. I think the amount is left up to the individual, and the distribution is up to the home fellowship. I know my husband has returned from the clergy meetings saying Shroyer does not want to centralize funds like TWI, but rather wants to leave the distributions up to the local leadership. I do know, that CFF has sent money out to individuals, fellowships, or even to other ministries in the United States and elsewhere, who have need. They are very caring and generous. To my knowlege, and from my over two decades of experience with them, I never knew TWI to do that, EVER-- not to people I knew who were suffering severe hardship, and especially not to other ministries. I've never seen a "blue form" pushed on us. The last ones we had from TWI, I had them cut up, padded, and used them for scrap paper. As far as abusive behavior, I have heard from someone on GSC (Can't remember who it was) of one particular person who ran a group of home fellowships who was legalistic and even abusive, using some of the TWI II tactics against his people. He no longer associates with CFF, and that may be why. Shroyer really doesn't like, and will not tolerate abusive behavior, and has publicly stated for the record that he will not tolerate adulterous behavior in the leadership or the followers. That's about all I could tell you.

WW It would be great to post the passages and sentences that were actually lifted for comparison.

And God help UPS if they decide computers are from the debbil... ... is that why my packages are always late?

If you were honest you would change the name of your organization. You would no longer call yourselves a "Biblical Research" organization. Let's see now, what could you possibly change that to? Welcome to The Way International, an organization committed and dedicated to the accuracy of preserving the fossilized, plagiarized rantings of perverse men who sexually abused their female subordinates, and impose false, unrealistic, and intrusive doctrines upon unsuspecting followers, and we will continue to wring every last cent from your pockets." Nah, I guess it just doesn't have the same "ring" to it...

I challenge The Way International to bring ONE person forward, just ONE, from within their organization: Who has been academically trained in the biblical languages of Koine Greek, Estrangelo Aramaic, Syriac, AND Hebrew at an accredited University which specializes in those languages, and graduated from it. They cannot do it. Come on, Rosalie, who do you have? What gives you the RIGHT to say you are a RESEARCH ministry, and what justifies your PRETENSE at being able to actually perform it? Who among your cabinet or staff, has the above qualifications? Name him or her. Who? Who among your Way Corps? Who among any of your leadership? Even among any of your followers? WHO do you have, who can prove they have been academically trained in all of those languages in an accredited University and graduated from that University? Yeah, I didn't think so. You used to have an entire department of qualified and trained people, a few with doctorates from The University of Chicago, with the above qualifications. Why aren't they with you any more, Rosy Lie? What happened to these trained and capable people? They all left you, one by one, or they were all chased off, one by one, until you had nothing left but an empty, hollow, shell of an organization with all the outward appearances of godly intent, but full of nothing but toxic gasses. So why don't you get honest and tell your followers that you can't trust them to do research because you don't have anyone at ANY level within your organization who can do it themselves?

No change in name, just manipulation of it. Whether referring to itself as The Way, Incorporated, or The Way Biblical Research Center, or The Way International, or The Way Ministry, the organization has always claimed in its mission statements and in its classes and fellowships and in its public teachings, and still on its current website, that it is fundamentally a Biblical Research, Teaching, and Fellowship ministry. However, that statement is nothing but a BIG FAT CLAIM otherwise known as A BIG FAT LIE There is NO ONE within the organization that can actually PERFORM TRUE RESEARCH. They do not have the skills, nor do they have the willingness, to carry it out.

The Way International has NEVER, EVER allowed true, independent biblical research. Those of us who were foolish enough to actually believe they would give us an opportunity to do true research, were persecuted, fired, chased off, and defamed to our friends and families. For many years, The Way International has not had ONE SINGLE INDIVIDUAL who is trained at an accredited University in the biblical languages, who can properly parse a pronoun. NOT ONE PERSON. Getting honest? Far from it. IF they were honest, they would stop selling any research tools whatsoever in their bookstore. Tell me, what is the profit and purpose of selling tools to people who do not have the proper skills or even the permission to use them? For TWI, it simply lines their pockets. For their followers, it only plumps up their egoes and feeds their delusions. IF they were honest, The Way International would change their website, which plainly states that they are all about "Biblical Research, Teaching, and Fellowship" If The Way International deems biblical research to be so dangerous (actually to the organization) that they will not even allow their "seasoned" and "most mature" leadership to crack a concordance, how in the world can they continue to call themselves a Biblical RESEARCH outfit? What justification is there for that? If you are a RESEARCH organization, you are assumed to have ACTIVE RESEARCH going on, as a major, ministry wide, primary activity, especially if you have RESEARCH in the title and purpose statement of your organization. But The Way International simply cannot be honest with and trust their people when it comes to doing research. BECAUSE NOBODY THERE, NOT ONE SINGLE SOUL IN THE ORGANIZATION FROM TOP TO BOTTOM, HAS EVEN A CLUE AS TO HOW TO CONDUCT TRUE RESEARCH! The Way International claims to not come to the Word of God with preconceived ideas. However, if what a person comes up with in their own personal research does not fall within the nine dots of nonsense that The Way International has imposed upon its followers, that person will be harassed and persecuted until he either gives up his conclusions, or they will force him or her out. There IS no honesty within The Way International. Only smoke and mirrors.

Singing Ladies? Nah, pick up a quartet of the best women Chicago has to offer from out on Western Avenue at about 3 a.m.

The Beatles: Were all born again of the wrong seed Couldn't play guitar Never wrote any of their own music Never wrote any of their own lyrics

The holocaust never happened. Or was greatly exaggerated.

Amazon.com has The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by David Johnson and Jeff VanVonderen for $10.39 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-h...9673764-0172603

Bliss, I applaud you for your courage in coming here and sorting things out in order to leave. One thing you might want to ponder, is that while The Way says they teach people to get rid of their fears, it is fear itself which keeps people bound to them. Those of your friends who say they are reluctant to leave because "there is nothing else out there" are actually bound by an irrational fear that there is nothing in life for them outside The Way International. I wonder how they might react if you pointed that out? Most of them are in deep denial. They would never admit it is FEAR which keeps them bound to TWI, they think it is their "commitment." They have actually committed themselves to not even consider the possibility that they could be wrong. Why? It frightens the hell out of them to even for a second consider that they have invested so many years of their lives into a deceptive organization. The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse has a great section on what is called "equity rescue." It's what keeps a great deal of people still hoping against hope that things will get better, while the organization fossilizes around them. What's worse than spending thirty years in an organization that you have discovered is a destructive cult? Staying thirty years and one second longer.

Shell, if you have that list, would you please post it? It would be a great eye-opener for everyone to see to what lengths one had to go in order to prepare for a visit from TMOGOTEW. I ran across one of those lists by accident one day, when during in-residence training, performing housekeeping duties in D*l Dunc*n's office, I found one underneath the desk mat on his desk. This list was at least THREE PAGES LONG. What to do, what not to do, what to have on hand, what he likes to eat for breakfast, lunch, and dinner... by the way, one of the most interesting things I learned, was that he liked a can of 7-Up every day, for.... Breakfast!

That was Martindales justification btw, for announcing to said class his fervent desire for God to give him revelation that specific people would just physically drop dead at his command-- "turning them over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh."

Satori said: I remember being "taught" that the more "Word" you learned, the more you were therefore responsible for, and the more consequences you would reap if you "copped-out." In other words, the "bigger" you were ("spiritually"), the harder you'd fall. Yep, Martindale exactly taught that. During the Advanced Class Spayshull on Discerning of Spirits in 1992, I believe, Martindale made public what he had taught The Way Corps privately for years. And that is, if a fully mature believer who has been "entrusted" with the deepest truths of God's Word "forsakes" the ministry that "saved his life," he works as effectively for the devil, old lucifer hisself, as if he were actually born again of the wrong seed. Yep, Criag claimed all those folks who walked out on him during the "fog years" and afterwards, were getting personal attention from old Beelzebub himself, just as if they were his own children. No instructions anymore from those so-called "five star generals." Nope, these "turncoats" and "traitors against God Almighty" had forsaken their personal relationship with the true God, for a personal relationship with Lucifer himself. Not those little devil spurts, but the big honcho, top dog. Fear of the devil, fear of the most powerful of devils, and the most unthinkable consequences, to keep all the good little waybots in line. Keep the corpse from running out on him. See, there's just no safety outside The Way. We were repeatedly taught that even if you want to leave, if you do, you're trading your relationship with God for a personal relationship with the Devil. Those who "knew the most" or had been entrusted with the most, or had been around the longest, had the most to lose. They were the ones in the most urgent peril if they even thought about setting foot outside "the household." Welcome to the Hotel California...

ROTFLMAO Nah, I think Martindale had them all beat. But seriously, that is what Vic called him. "The greatest layman."

LOL Rascal!!! That's what happens when you stay gone for a week and then try to catch up too fast!

ROTFLMAO He "doesn't want his name tarnished like that"???? Then he never should have sold his soul to begin with. What about the names L*nder worked around the clock to tarnish himself? Women whom he falsely accused or defamed on various websites like NoWayOut and WayDale? L*nder, you put your own name to shame by your own behavior. Satori just told it like it is. If you can't surf with the big dogs, stay off the net.

Yeah, if you dare to cross the leadership, or worse yet, decide to leave, to walk out on The Way International, the accusations and predictions begin: *1973, when my hand was on the doorknob and I was ready to leave the ministry, J*hn N*ve yelled at me "You'll never get your needs met anywhere else!" *1982, when she wasn't happy with her department, at a staff meeting, Em*gene All*n threw a hissy fit and publicly accused her entire staff of being "Scum from the crick!" *1987, when yelling about a Corps person who walked out on him, Martindale accused the man of "allowing his mind to unravel like a cheap sweater." All the way to *1995, when C*nnie P*narello proclaimed that "your ankle has not healed because your husband doesn't love you enough."* 1996, when a person in our fellowship went against his instruction regarding personal family matters, M*rk W*llace bellowed "Who next in your family do you want to DIE?!!!" and on to *1996 when we could in good conscience no longer do to people the things M*rk W*llace was requiring us to do, he shouted the following prediction within earshot of our daughter: If you don't get a passion for the truth, you (Geek) will die a lonely old man, you (me) will be hobbled for life, and your daughter will be a stark raving lunatic!" Falsely accusing and threatening people with tragedy waiting to befall them and the devil hiding behind every corner, has always been The Way's "way" to control their people. And their Top Flunkies (who in MY PHO actually ARE scum from the crick) have sold their souls out to do the devil's bidding in that way.

Agreed!

MJ If I were you, I wouldn't change a thing. I believe God is big enough to understand where each of us is on life's journey, and to be patient enough with each of us and help us along the path. When it gets down to it, it is an individual walk, whether we are in a group or not in one at all.

Is it made up purely of spiritually mature and perfected believers, beyond the reach of man's ineptness and mistakes? Who makes up this Body of Christ? What are it's purposes and how are they achieved? Is there only one true church, only one true Body of Christ that God works with? Or is the Body of Christ made up of all believers and groups of believers? Can one group reach a person that another group cannot, as in when there are cultural or other kinds of differences in the human experience? Does God work within every group to the extent that He is allowed? Or does He only work with the group or groups that have the most accurate information and listen and obey Him the most? What about born again people who at times, or much of the time, work at cross purposes with God? Are they part of the body? Does God work through them? Or does He work around them? Can they make things more difficult? Do enough of them in a congregation preclude that group of believers from even being a part of the Body of Christ? If it precludes the group from being part of the Body of Christ, what then of the one or two or more believers still in that group who are trying to work God's plan with a pure heart? (I know they should leave, but does God still work with them or does He ignore them until they leave?) Do you even have to be part of or a memeber of a specific ministry or church to be a part of the Body of Christ? I'm sure others have their own questions they can list regarding the subject. Anybody have any other questions? Anybody have any or all of the answers?

Linda, with all due respect, while I agree that God's design of the Body of Christ is absolutely perfect, if it always worked perfectly and was beyond the reach of any man's messing with it, Paul would have not needed to write I Corinthians, especially the latter verses of chapter 12 where Paul instructs on the necessity of each and every member in the body. For the body to work as God designed, people must be willing to work together as God designed them to. And that is up to each individual in each particular congregation. God won't force people to work together. If they don't want to, they injure each other and thwart God's purposes. Where the members work together as God designed, everyone is supplied and nourished, and God is allowed to work among his people to care for them and reach out to the world. Where members do not work together as God designed, supply and nourishment is sporadic, members are constantly injuring each other, and God is limited as to what He can do within that particular group of people. Each Christian, and each and every group of born again Christians, is part of the body of Christ. TWI is part of the Body of Christ. However in their case, they abuse and mutilate each other and cut each other out of the fellowship, the exact things that Corinthians was written to address within the body of Christ. That is just part of what accounts for the "spotty" results and inconsistent experiences of people involved with TWI. Every born again person is a member of the Body of Christ, and every group of believers help make up the entire body. Where people work together as God intended, the body works as designed and the needs get met among that group. Where there is envy and strife, jealousy and hatred, confusion and corruption, you have the eye saying to the hand, "I have no need of thee." That is what The Way International has done. It is against God's design. That is what keeps God from meeting all the needs within that group of people. TWI wants to teach that the body is only made up of the most mature believers, the most knowlegable believers, the ones who walk perfectly, and they are the only true body, and God works primarily through their ministry. This error ignores the fact (among others) that while all Christians are at various stages of maturity in their walks with God, each believer can have a full fellowship with God and God can work through them no matter how much or how little they "know," and how old or how young they are in Christ. It's a matter of heart and willingness, not simply knowledge or spiritual maturity. But enough. This is probably something better addressed in the doctrinal forum. I've started a thread there for the purpose of that discussion, for anyone who wants to kick around ideas, questions, and thoughts on it.

The Way International and those who support them, wish we would simply let up on rehearsing the evils we suffered at their hands. You want us to let up on you? Perhaps you should understand the true meaning of peace-- the peace you desire. Peace is not simply the absence of strife. Peace also requires the presence of justice. At hands of The Way Interntaional, there is no justice. Until we have justice, they will have no peace.

Just Get over it? I don't think so. There IS NO "getting over" what atrocities were performed by The Way Interntaional's designated ministers against God's people. There is only overcoming what has occurred. That takes time, and a lot of work, and a whole lot of patience, among other things. And no one can madate the path each person must take, or the amount of time it may take in order to accomplish the task. A person can overcome many hardships they face. But at least one thing that was stolen from us cannot be recovered. No person or organization can give us back the time we lost. The years, the decades, the strength of our youth and the idealism that was exploited and robbed from each of us. But God sees, God knows, and God can restore. "It's not what I have accomplished in life that is so important. It is what I have overcome." W.E.B. Dubois