Catcup

It still amazes me the depth of the anal retentiveness of the upper leadership. In 1982 when on HQ staff, a small group of folks from the research department (probably about 4-5 couples) got together for Thanksgiving dinner at Schoenheit's house. I made the Turkey and gravy, other folks made the side dishes, we used the Schoenheit's china and Bx and Sxxxxxx Rxxxxxd brought their sterling silver. Bx had each and every piece taped with his name on the back, hovered over it, and made sure to count each piece he took out of the bag and placed back in it. I can understand keeping track of it-- the stuff ain't cheap. But the hovering made me feel uneasy, as if we were not trusted and he thought it would be stolen. Later on someone who did his housekeeping told me that this was normal for him, and that the man knows the household inventory down to exactly how many socks he has in his drawer. And, they are lined up neatly according to color. I never did back room detail, but I did do housekeeping at the Indiana campus while in residence. I never ran into the spray the cloth not the furniture instructions there, but I did later on when I purchased some pricey wood furniture from a high end store. They recommended using their own brand of polish and gave instructions to apply it directly to the cloth but never the furniture. The one time I put it directly on the furniture, I was sorry I did, because it actually left drip marks in the finish that I can't get out. So I suppose it does make a difference how you do that, depending on the chemical and finish used on the furniture.

[edit] it was bad enough to find out about the "harems" of women Schoenheit spoke to me about.... it was even worse to discover my own sister... [delete] And yes, I remember Sunny's group. I never felt the need to go to all those "women's" meetings she had, but I wish now I had so I would have known what the hell was going on. I do remember when she locked herself in a suite in one of the dorms.... Uncle Harry coming to try to talk to her.... and then she was gone, and the same m.o. with Craig badmouthing the person who was no longer there to defend herself. Sunny, if you're out there, I'd sure love to hear what you have to say about it all.

Nah, she's only got a taste for TWI rats... Moondove sounds nice.... love the pic as well....

As far as a TV guide-- You never wanted to let on that you watched enough TV to actually need one of those things. At times, I actually kept my TV in the closet! If it was out too much, I might be tempted to watch too much of it, y'know... such a waste of time! And yeah, Wxllxce constantly had his TCs reporting back to him about conditions in the homes of people on his $h-t list. This area was notorious for people wanting to stick their noses into your business. When we first moved into our house and were not yet unpacked, most of our unpacked boxes were taken to the basement so as not to clutter up our "fellowship room." One Corps night we hosted, Cheryl Wxtson, nosy b-tch that she was, insisted on a "tour" of our home, which I gave her-- of the upstairs. She then insisted she be shown the basement, and I said no because it was not ready yet, and was full of boxes and unpacked furniture. She got my 9 year old daughter to sneak her down in the basement, and suddenly I heard a loud CRASH! Up the stairs runs my daughter, and Cheryl after her. Seems they somehow knocked over the huge beveled plate glass inset to my cocktail table when "looking behind" it as it lay wrapped in a moving blanket, against a basement wall, behind a couch. She had to pull out the couch from the wall for that to happen. What the @*#( was she looking for, anyway? Dust bunnies? Cheryl's curiosity cost me $75.00 to replace that huge glass insert! No offers to replace the expensive piece of furniture. No apologies, either.

Welcome, doglover! Anything not related to The Way International out in public view was frowned upon. Mxrk Wxllxce never wanted to see drainboards (even empty ones) on the kitchen counters or anything whatsoever on top of your refrigerator! And certainly nothing magneted to the front, either, unless it was neatly discreetly organized.

Your mileage may vary from fellowship to fellowship within CFF. CFF doesn't "monitor" and control the teachings in every home fellowship associated with them like TWI did, and there are people who affiliate with CFF who come from different backgrounds and points of view. I do take it as a good sign that CFF is aware of my opinions yet still regularly invites my husband to teach at their services. Plus, they've never tried to muzzle me. But then again, can you imagine what would happen to anyone who tried to?

sorry, double post.

A very simple and ordinary name for me. When WayDale first opened as a posting forum, I was sitting there with a post all ready to go and realized I needed a "handle" in order to send it. Looking down at the handle in my own hand, it was attached to my favorite Laurel Birch cat cup. Hence, the name Catcup. I chose my avatar when it was necessary to keep my identity secret from TWI since I was one of the witnesses for the Allen case. I made plenty of revealing posts that exposed things TWI and especially LCM would have rather not had public, and they were desperate to know who I was. I chose an avatar of a cat lurking in the bushes waiting to pounce on the next rat happening by. To me, it was clearly descriptive of my purpose-- I was laying in wait against vile disease-ridden vermin which I could quickly take out in one fell swoop. Later on, right before the legal process of discovery would have revealed my true identity, I revealed it myself in the chat room, which I knew was being monitored by TWI. I revealed my identity on my own terms, when I was ready. I am Marcia Nessle My signature phrase is a quote from Hans Scholl, a martyred member of The White Rose-- a very small group of students who warned Germany against Nazism, who were all hunted down and slaughtered. This small but intelligent and highly courageous group frightened Adolph Hitler to his very core. Hans Scholl spoke out knowing he would have to give up his own life, yet he refused to let Hitler go unchallenged. And with this statement, Scholl let Hitler know that whatever he did to The White Rose, would kill him in the end.

If in fact TWI has "changed their tune" regarding their mark and avoid policy, it can only be because they realize they were wrong to have done it and have regrets. They have figured out not how it hurt those they levied the policy against, but how it impacted them: It severely cut the numbers of people they could boast, emptied money from their coffers, and robbed them of not only the money that would have been coming in, but also robbed them of the fellowship of some people they actually used to enjoy, and made for unhappy family relationships among many of their innies. Again, it's all about what they lost, not about what harm they did to others.

It will also highlight whether she genuinely wants to make a meaningful contact with you, or truly wants to relieve her own concerns about still never really seeing you again. I remember shortly before I made the decision to leave, finding we were already being "written off." At a fellowship, one little boy who was a playmate of my daugher-- I think he was probably 7 years old or less-- came up and told her he would miss her, but he would see her at the bema!!!!! My daughter wondered if he was sick and was going to die. But I heard and saw the exchange, and knew exactly where it came from and what was coming down the pike. The idiocy and arrogance of these people still makes me want to puke. It amazes me that they truly do not understand how arrogant they sound. Or perhaps they know and don't really care.

They got rid of it, did they? Then I would ask this person one thing: When will The Way International send out letters of apology to all those whom they marked and avoided? If The Way International ditched the policy, they must have 1.) Finally admitted they actually had the policy, which btw they are on court records as denying they ever had, and 2.) If they admit they used a wrong policy against people in the past, then they must know they wronged many people. Where is their admission of guilt, retraction of policy, and profuse apologies to all those who were victims of that policy for years? Now that is frightening. It was Mrs. Wierwille, who after VPW's death remarked to a poster here, that her husband "was a mean man." That was the kindest thing his wife had to say about her husband to this person. Specifically what things and classes and how have they changed? How very condescending. I'd certainly ask her the above questions if it were me. And like rascal said... be nice. But you can nonchalantly ask the questions in a way that is non-threatening. For example, "You mean they dropped the mark and avoid policy? Wow. So, when is The Way International going to contact all those people they marked and avoided and let them know they are no longer marked and avoided?" And, "How wonderful that things have changed! Exactly what changes have been made where and what were the results?" As an aside-- Right after Christmas my husband and I dropped by to see his elderly mother, who lives with his innie brother. After we checked on her and as we were leaving, he made sure to tell us we were "always welcome here." A very changed tune from when he wrote his brother a quite hateful note and sent it to him for his birthday shortly after we left TWI. They want us back, but they don't want to admit to the inhumane treatment they gave to thousands of people. Not admitting their mistakes to and apologizing to the people they actually hurt indicates they aren't sorry for our sakes they did it. They are only sorry for their own. We happened to have with us a guest who had never been a part of TWI and until right before we got out of the car had no idea what TWI was. When we left, she remarked how the house decor seemed "unnaturally and compulsively perfect," how odd it was there were no family photos in the livingroom, just posters, how my brother-in-law kept nervously picking the lint off his shirt, and various other oddities. BTW she is in criminal justice and forensics, and has a trained eye for incongruous detail. It seemed odd to me as well. The livingroom was so typically set up with two queen-anne style wingback chairs facing two couches arranged "just perfectly" for a teaching setting, along with the fake ficus palms. Why is it Wayfers love to set up their livingrooms like a set from the stage of the Weird Over the World Auditorium? No one really lives there after all, now, do they?

Socks! ROTFLMAO!!!! Gillian-- that's Bxb and Dxttie Mxynihan

I would like to say something about that letter and how I was treated because of my reaction to it. We had just moved to Munster Indiana. Not yet unpacked. We had not been to or held a fellowship in our home for several years-- we had been holding back since I had sent Martindale some confrontational correspondence much earlier. We got the letter in the mail, and like a lot of folks, I was ticked off that I felt I was being put on the spot to make a choice. Then again, I did note the letter was written to those on full time staff positions. But I questioned why then was a copy of staff correspondence being sent to me? So... I had a gyn appointment with Dr. Rawlins there in Munster. I go in, have the exam, we chit chat, then she asks me: What did I think about Martindale's letter? I told her I felt it was wrong to put people on the spot who were not on staff, and to send such a letter to folks on the field. She slammed her appointment book closed, walked out of the room, and yelled to the nurse, "Give her the 'bum's rush." Which I was promptly given. And she charged me double-- I paid cash and she billed my insurance. Lots o' love there, huh? And by the way-- yes, good men do evil things. But evil men also do good things. Like the German SS officer and his wife who kissed their children just before poisoning them in Hitler's bunker... Still doesn't make them "Parents of the Year."

I know my man would agree with that one, Chas!

And more.

I agree also with that point of view. So far, no one has objected to my pov, at least to my face. But I agree, it would be a big turnoff at teachings for me, and new people have no clue who VPW is. I believe at least for myself, that I need to challenge everything I formerly believed, and get another perspective. If what I learned in TWI is true, I will find it again, corroborated by other sources. But To hear VPW's name invoked, or his phrases quoted in a teaching, is like fingernails on a blackboard for me. My husband knows this, and believes as I do, that what we teach and believe needs to be both constructed and documented from sources outside TWI. What my husband teaches, he documents in sources other than The American Christian Press. So far, he does his best in our home fellowship to avoid certain phrases, or learn to drop TWI vocabulary as much as possible. From time to time he will slip into an old phrase (habits are hard to break) and we talk about it afterwards, or sometimes even stop right there and discuss it in the meeting. That's another thing different that we do in our own fellowship: Our format is very unlike the "twig" we are all used to where no one interrupts or is allowed to ask a question during the teaching. We have a dialogue format to our fellowship. Anyone at any time can ask a question or answer one, add to what is being said, or question it for that matter. You could never do that in TWI, because you were never allowed to question, period. But I believe that it takes more patience and love and humility, all of which categories TWI was sorely lacking in, to have an actual dialogue with people. And so far, no one has objected. But then again, half of our folks never knew TWI. But I guarantee you, that anyone who walks away from you or excommunicates you because you don't care for VPW and his teachings, has no clue what love is anyway so you are better off without them in your life. Anyone who wants to give me an ultimatum about accepting VPW as TMOG who gave me light and life, can "kiss the kitty."

Theology not only draws on biblical sources, but also philosophical sources, and we are getting here a pretty good overview of several of them. The basic religious follower really has no idea how theology and philosophy are interconnnected, and many find it unnecessary to the application of their religion to their own lives to even delve into. There is nothing at all wrong with that and does not speak to a person's level of intelligence, just their level of interest and involvement. However, there are those here and elsewhere who are interested in the history of theology and philosophy and find it fascinating. There are also those who can find the breadcrumb trail Wierwille left through all these areas and how he concocted his particular brew of toxic religious waste and packaged and sold it as a snake oil cure. I believe that is what Jkb is doing for you all here. But I think we need a new forum regarding Philosophy and Theology; this doesn't quite fit in "about The Way" or "Doctrinal." But very interesting discussions indeed, and it will be interesting to see where it leads!

Good one. Now, figure this one out" It is possible to connect all the dots with one stroke...

All I know is I have learned in several different psychology classes that the puzzle has been used for several decades in cognitive psychological testing in order to measure insight and lateral thinking skills in determining giftedness.

The "nine dots" puzzle was used in a Corps teaching to illustrate that it takes innovative thinking to move the Word. Trouble is, TWI laid down a border for thought that a good Wayfer dared not cross. Buying into the doctrine meant putting up barriers against certain thought processes that would allow one to gain enough perspective to escape the constricted mentality of the cult. Like a Greek tragedy, they got you to poke out your own eyes.

After a quick skim through this thread, I'll leave my input here: Yes, I gave money to The Way International-- with a certain understanding. I gave it with the understanding that: The money I contributed was to go to "move the word." The people living on that money had a fiduciary responsiblity to spend it in the manner it was represented to me that it would be spent. I had a right to expect that the money would be spent frugally, sensibly, and appropriately in "moving the Word of God." I would have never given one red cent if I had known it went to paying for $1500 suits, Bruno Mali shoes, and paying hotel rooms in which menage trois made a moggy sandwich-- all so I could live on less than half of what my income was with no allowance for savings: giving not only the tithe, but abundant sharing, and paying for all the REQUIRED attendance to functions, classes, events, and purchase of bookstore publications, not to mention all the annual birthday, anniversary, and holiday gifts to every hotshot up and down the Way Tree. However, having said that I gave the money with the understanding that it would be used to "move the Word," I also gave it with the understanding that: If I did NOT give, I would NOT prosper. God would not spit in my direction unless I went above 15%. To obtain the "blessing" and "protection" of the "household," I would have to live on a "need basis." That meant that everything that did not go to put a tin roof over my head, peanut butter in my baby's mouth, and second hand clothes on our backs, MUST go to The Way International, or disaster would befall us. It was extortion, plain and simple. Flat out protection money, and it went to things I never agreed to pay for. TWI and its designated ministers misrepresented to me what the money was to be used for. To me, that is fraud. They also used veiled and open threats in order to obtain more money from their followers. To me, that is extortion.

Thanks! That's the solution for the 4-line instruction. There are several other solutions for the puzzle when not given the 4 line directive. It is possible to do it in 3 lines as well, but again, must be done outside the "box."

The nine dots is a puzzle which measures the cognitive feature of insight and lateral thinking in psychological tests. The dots are arranged similar to the following pattern, but more along the lines of a square instead of a rectangle: . . . . . . . . . The subject is instructed to draw four straight lines, without lifting his pencil from the "paper," through all nine dots. On first glance, most people only see one solution, but it doesn't connect all the dots. They draw a box connecting the outside dots which seem to make up a "border." The only way to connect all 9 is to actually extend the lines outside the dots. There is no border in the instructions. TWI did try to use this test to make a point to The Way Corps of "thinking outside the box." I started a thread some time ago which addresses the issue, titled "The Nine Dots of Nonsense" or something like that. It's an interesting read, but I don't know where it is these days.

Wolfie Forgive me if I was not clear, but I agree VP orchestrated the worship and in no way suggested VPW did not. I simply said he knew it was happening and allowed it to continue. I wholeheartedly agree with you. I was simply responding to Wayfernot's earlier post: "It would be so easy for vp worshippers to say that he was a man, and he let us down, not God. Of course that is the truth. Then we would be blamed that we elevated vp higher than we should have. From the beginning we got involved in twi, vp was presented as almost infallible..." VPW hurt people by taking on this air of infallibility and perpetuating it among them. We may have been deceived into attributing infallibility to this man, but that man KNEW EXACTLY WHAT HE WAS DOING.

Maybe we elevated VP higher than we should have, but he knew it was happening, he allowed it to continue, and even encouraged it. After his death and the .fit hit the shan, I personally pointed that out to Craig Martindale and warned him against it, that this could not and should not continue. I told Martindale that we do our people a huge disfavor by allowing them to believe in the infallibility of a human being, and outlined the many consequences of that belief, but chiefly: denial. It was Craig's choice to continue the charade. He wanted everything VP had, and then some. I couldn't stomach it. And learned later after leaving, how much worse the damage really was. These men left horrid unspeakable carnage in their wake and deserve to rot in hell.