Catcup

Over the years we were involved in TWI I cannot count the number of times that we poured our hearts and lives into growing and healing an area, into a couple, or into a person... only to have them totally devastated by the next change in leadership. There is no way you can guarantee these people won't be reinjured or decimated by the next person. That's another part of the problem.

He certainly admired a certain 17 year old WOW's endowment...

Why stay around another 10-15 years in a truly sick organization simply waiting for corrupted leadership to die off? Just because the children of Israel had to wander around in the desert doesn't mean YOU have to... This way out -------> And what, then after the old folk die off, there will be another person there who will rise up and declare that the organization is now clean and can be re-declared as the organization with the corner on Truth? Corrupt. From the getgo. Get out while you have a moment of clarity....

OK here it goes... "After reviewing the evidence, Judge John D. Schmitt rendered the "Decision and Order Entry Granting Partial Summary Judgement" on Oct. 30, 2000. He states: "There is evidence that Rosalie Rivenbark knew about Craig Martindale's extra marital sexual relationships, as early as 1995. Deposition of L. Craig Martindale, page 123.... There is evidence to indicate that both Rosalie Rivenbark and Ramona Biden played a role in the events leading up to the sexual encounter between Craig Martindale and (Mrs.) Allen. A jury must decide whether the encounter was consensual, or if an assault occurred. If the jury finds that an assault occurred, the same jury might reasonably conclude that defendants engaged in a pattern of corrupt activity, which led to the assault." Yes, we know the case was settled. If the defense had thought they had a snowball's chance in hell to disprove these charges, they WOULD NEVER HAVE MADE AN OFFER TO SETTLE. But it doesn't change what happened Oldies. And it doesn't change Rosie Lie's involvement or culpability. And this woman, who "allegedly" participated in not only in helping line up Fillies for der Fuhrer, but also in covering their tracks, IS STILL THE PRESIDENT OF THE WAY INTERNATIONAL.

DJS Thank you for taking the time to compose a response. However, all you are saying about how things have changed, are the very same ways TWI changed after the Geer splitoff. Before then, I could go to HQ and get the "stare right through you look." As a matter of fact, At the opening of the WOW Auditorium, Don Wierwille gave me that exact stare through-- like I was a piece of scum on his newly opened building and what the hell was I doing there. You see, after spending a year on staff in 1982-1983, I saw some pretty intense corruption, called a confrontation meeting with two trustee level people and another person and read them the riot act. This was not well received, and I left of my own accord, and prayed for a change. When the Geer splitoff happened, there was indeed a change. The same, very same changes you speak of. I too spent some time with "top leadership" afterward-- trustee level-- and was assured changes would be made. They fell all over themselves to try to make us feel welcomed and comfortable. Even got a handwritten apology from Don. Craig gushed at the possiblity that my husband would help. Everything seemed hunky dory. My husband and I stayed and helped try to rebuild the ministry, trusting changes would occur. Yeah, right. After several years of "sweetness and light," darkness again fell on The Way International. You are singing the same song I and many others have sung before. And the same old thing always happens. It's a repeating cycle of legalism and license, of squeeze and a slight release, right before the viper clamps down once more, squeezing the life out of its prey. Why? It's evil from the root. You still have the very person the judge felt was knowledgable of and participated in setting Fern Allen up for (ok oldies, edited for you:) "allegdly" getting raped, heading up your organization. Yes, Rosalie Rivenbark. And you have people like Mxrk and Josephine Wxllxce as region coordinators: Mxrk, who threatened death to me, to my family, and to others in my fellowship. That's just a ferinstance. The Word says that if a ruler hearkens to lies, all his advisors are evil. Rivenbark is not only one who hearkened to lies, but also originates them. The organization needs to be scrapped from the top down and the bottom up. You have an organization that you even feel is holding back on admitting its wrongs for fear of legal action. So they're afraid of.......... JUSTICE? God requires his men and women to do justice and judgment. And that poisoned organization quivers in fear at the very thought of having to render true justice to those they have harmed, because it would bankrupt them. I say let justice and judgment roll down upon The Way International. Hey, you know the old saying... No justice, no peace. Biblical, too. You say you are smart enough to know when to leave? Yeah, so was I, but I still left decades too late, trying to save an organization that simply is not salvageable. Don't make the same mistake. The only thing worse than spending 20 years in a bad organization is spending 20 years and one more second.

Some one, some the other, and some, a little bit of both. Different people were exposed to different things before, during, and after TWI involvement. All those variables may have determined to what degree we were influenced by TWI. A little bit nature and a little bit nurture. What you believe it was all due to I suppose believes on your point of view. Some of what has been alleged to have occurred in TWI can be interpreted as criminal. Criminal acts can be interpreted as evil, depending on how the law applied is viewed. Some people attribute evil to the devil. Some, to the very worst of human nature. The DSM identifies some of what has reportedly been seen in TWI as in the category of mental illness. And, some define mental illness as spirit possession. And all that, is probably a whole 'nother thread...

DJS I know this is a lot to take in at once, so please don't be overwhelmed. There's a lot you don't know yet about the other side of the story. Please take the time to do a lot of reading on this forum and on others, and begin to piece together the entire picture. Allowing yourself only to consider TWI's side has skewed your perspective to see only what they want you to see. Happy Reading.

I guess if GAWD had designed the landscape, every mountain, tree, and rock would have to be semetrically placed, just like the candles on her fireplace mantle, eh? And a doily under each boulder?

It sure would. Ralph, anybody call you? Tell you about your retro retirement fund? Anybody else contacted? If it was retroactive, it should cover anyone who worked for them for a certain amount of years. Ah, but you probably weren't grandfathered in if they had fired you. I get it. Yeah, I didn't think so.

I couldn't agree more regarding their need to re examine their beliefs, but like you, I'm not holding my breath. But to acknowledge their wrongdoing is a start. Again, I'm not holding my breath. The pattern of damaging others while accepting no accountability for the hurt, and changing only when it affects them personally or legally, reflects not only their dangerous doctrinal error, but also the sick psychology of the organization and it's top people.

In order to "restore" your accomplishments from years of service, they would have to "restore" you in the eyes of the people there. How do you erase the ugly defamations and slander that were screamed from the pulpit and microphones and across phone lines for years, mounted against you and others? How do you unspeak those words and get those people to unthink those thoughts? Yeah. Unbreak my heart. Can't be done. And if they had to pay out damages, it would bankrupt the organization. That's why they will never publicly apologize. It admits guilt, which opens the doors for a tsunami of litigation they would be sure to lose.

The term the "fog years" came from the Great Forehead himself. As I remember, he and Howard and Don had gone out on a fishing trip. Early in the morning, on a lake, the fog had rolled in so thick that they couldn't tell where the hell they were on the lake. The Great Forehead used it in a teaching as an analogy to describe the confusion the BOT and the ministry were left in during that time period after the Passing of the Poop paper. They're STILL in that fog today. They just don't know it.

That's all well and good, djs, but if TWI believes what they did with their m&a and related policies was wrong, don't you think they could "help the healing" along a little better and take the onus off of their believers? Why is it up to Joe Believer to continue to make excuses for The Way's past policies and tell people how much better it is now? If Joe Believer didn't make these policies, why should Joe Believer have to deal with the clean-up? The Way International should deal with it themselves by writing a letter of admission regarding every one of their damaging policies and apology for the damages incurred to every person who has ever been involved in the ministry. I worked for Auntie Em, I did the all-mailings. TWI has the ability to contact people if they want to bad enough. The only reason they haven't so far is because we simply aren't that important to them. Or, ah, yes, we remain a legal liability. Because if they admitted what they did was wrong, then they'd have to pay for the resulting damages.

Welcome to the Cafe, djs. Same here. Not only in place, but quite prominently. So not much has changed there. But what I would really like to know is, when is The Way International going to acknowledge the harm they did to thousands of people by their hurtful policies by contacting each of them and apologizing to each one? They KNOW who we are, they HAVE our names in their "book of life." It's not that hard to track someone down. Their lawyers do it all the time. If they truly believe that their tactics were wrong, then they should publicly say so to the people they wronged. The only reason for them NOT to, is that it really isn't that important to them to acknowlege the extent of the damage they inflicted. Or, ah, yes, we remain a legal liability. Because if they admitted what they did was wrong, then they'd have to pay for the resulting damages. Which means we really still don't matter to them. And if we don't really matter to them, why should anyone bother? Nothing really changed. And if nothing really changed, the ugly beast is still there, biding it's time. Only we won't be it's next victims. Guess who will be? Don't you see that the only reason they changed anything at all was because the money was leaving with the people who left???? This is the same m.o. TWI adopted after the Passing of the Poop paper and Geer left with all those folks. The ministry had shrunk along with it's coffers. So the ministry became more "sweet," more "loving," more "personal." The BOT made sure TWI was a "kinder, gentler" organization for a few years and meanwhile built their base of loyalty back. Then once they were again in a position of power, they put the screws to us. Same old cycle of abuse is occuring again. Just wait, you'll see. Give it several more years, more or less. But I'd bet money on it happening again down the line.

I agree. Any positives there were at any time in TWI usually had more to do with the good that people brought to it rather than any good that emanated from it, IMO. And the more time went on, the more good was squeezed out of the people until they were nearly suffocated.

Other things that were ushered in with TWI II were The Way of Abundance and Power replacing Piffle.... the removal or back burner of VPW's classes and books and the Great Forehead's book on outreach being pushed.... Anything VP was "old wineskins" --All Hail the Great Forehead... How soon the innies have forgotten this era of great pressures and the gutstripping and defamation of believers for anything that could pass for "genuine suspicion"... Oh, y'all c'mon back, now, y'hear? Where is the acknowlegement and apology for the evils done?

I think TWI II was sometimes marked not by when LCM first took the reins, but right about the time around 1993-1994 when he began making even more radical demands and changes in The Way Corps and then in the ministry in general. On the Corps night he initiated it, he remarked that VPW had made a mistake in 1975 by saying the purpose of The Way Corps was to train twigleaders. He said he was bringing it back to it's origins for those thought to have gift ministries. The changes Martindale then initiated marked huge screws being tightened on the followers: The Corps purges, the Great Homo purges (God, remember the nasty imagery and foul language in that 4 or more (double-sided) page epistle he wrote to The Way Corps about homosexuals!!!!), the ban on mortgages, the forced increases in ABS, the Corps full time. Then a cycle of even greater purges and ramped up pressures. He made the point of "This ain't your Daddy's ministry anymore." I think that is also around the same time that he announced "The Word was Over the World." and at one time he even jokingly referred to it as "The Way II." Those things marked a huge change in the culture and atmosphere around and in TWI. There was a big shift between 1994 and 1995 that almost seemed as if you had stepped into the Twilight Zone... I think there were some old threads on WayDale that compared TWI I and TWI II...

Dot that was fabulous and heart felt. Thank you and ex for having the courage to share a little bit of what happened to you. I know it isn't easy, but you never know who you may be helping in telling your story.

If you want to find out more about sexual predation and narcissism, I would recommend some APA journals if you are into deep reading. The on line journal site is http://www.apa.org/journals/homepage.html However, you could google it, or check out an on-line encyclopedia like Wikipedia. But in my own personal observations I would think LCM and VPW were narcissistic in addition to other problems.

When narcissism is blended into the toxic mix of what these men were about, you have a person who does not have a working conscience as you and I understand conscience. And without a conscience, they do not care who or how they hurt in order to elevate and please themselves. You find it difficult to understand Rascal, because you've got one. A conscience, that is. Normal folks find it hard to understand, because the behavior is so far outside of what one would expect and the way a normal person thinks. And yes, there had to be something broken on the inside. Several things. Very, very broken. That being said, it does not excuse what they did.

Good one weout! Jxhn Nxve was another anal retentive. He's one who was reeeaaaaly weird, played lots of mind games. I sure felt sorry for Frxn. Maybe more on that later.

What's interesting about a predator is, they usually have what is considered a "personal myth" which they use to justify their own behavior. I believe for these men, they felt God had called them to do it, that they had a God-given right to our bodies: VPW's self-proclaimed role as "The Teacher" encompassed teaching all areas of life, including your sexuality. It was part of his personal myth. I'm not saying God called them to do it, I'm saying that's quite probably the sick and bizarre reasoning VP used to justify his actions. The personal myth is part of the psychological disorder of sexual predation, along with a constellation of other related aspects.

No kidding dmiller! OCD with ever so slight a touch of paranoia... Hey, I knew that man, too... witnessed to me... another piece of work...

What the fug was wrong with these old men to believe they were GOD'S GIFT gift to teach us how to FEEL LIKE A WOMAN??????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ah, yes, the red boots. I do remember them. And I remember Howard. It has been a long time since this was at the forefront of any thread, so I'll post it again here: During PFAL 77 in Muncie, Indiana, I was doing Bless Patrol with another girl near the doors leading from the motor coach into the building. We would open the doors for VP and Howard and escort them to the back stage area as they walked through. I do recall VPW walking in nothing but his bath robe from the coach to the back stage area, and once thrust a bar of Coast soap in my nose, and said, "Here, smell this, ain't it great!" BTW one of the details that made one girl's rape testimony hit home for me and ring true, was that afterwards, she could no longer stand the smell of anything like Coast bath soap. He and Howard had come back and forth through the area several times that day and each time we opened the doors for them. Then later on, I began to detect a whiff of alcohol on Howard as he began passing by. The next time he and VPW came by and I opened the door... Howard grabbed me, laid a sloppy wet french kiss on me, laughed, and said "You've been asking for that all day!" I still remember the stench and taste of the alcohol as he forced his tongue into my mouth. He and VPW laughed and continued back stage. I was embarassed, kind of giggled, and back then chalked it up to Howard having had too much to drink and forgave it. But I know now it was a hell of a lot more than that. And I will never forget it.