leafytwiglet

HAAAAAAAAA! you two are full of Win and awesome sauce. Thanks for making me laugh!!!

Bowtwi has it exactly right and not only is he going to try to argue it that way he is using cases where the court expressly ruled that they will not rule on the doctirne issue and threw that part of it out and then looked at the cases in light of real estate law and ruled in favor of the owners of the property he can try to say they ruled on it according to doctrine of the religions but when you read the cases all the way through that is not what they are about. THe people who owned the property legaly had someone else try to take their property away by using their church doctrine. THe courts refused to rule in their favor. HE is going in thinking he can win with absolutely no proof that he did the work! Why should he have any proof it is quite obvious he did not do the work and infringed on their copy rights. I may hate the Way International but this is rediculous. HE is hoping the court will let him win so he can sell his bible as his own work and as truth. HE is just another Victor Paul Weirwille in James Trimm clothing,

James you might want to actually read through those court casese you are citing as at least one of them does not support what you claim it supports. I am not going to tell you which one. If you are citing them in court you need to know what they say, what they were actually about, and what the COURT actually ruled on. Just citing them in court will not win your case you do realise the judge will read them over too. Dazzle in court only works on TV shows. Edited to add. I suggest you go find some other cases because those two you cited actually favor TWI if you used them in a court of law. Both of these cases involve Real Estate law. And the whole doctrinal angle you are throwing down is being thrown out by the court in them and the cases were judged soley on the merit of law in regards to Real Estate and the Property rights of the Owner of record of each of these properties. THe Court is saying it will not rule on these decision based on doctrinal theory of the respective religious oraganizations in the lawsuits but on the actual Law.

OKay I just about chocked on my coffee! Thank you Geisha! Thank you that was the best answer ever!

And as such it is subject to the same jurisdiction amd management by the same government. By the way did I not say that stealing a copy righted book is not included in your first amendment rights. I am pretty sure I said that. And just so you do not think I am picking on You Mr. Trimm For the purposes of our discussion lets assume you did not steal the work done by the translation department of The Way International. Lets assume you took the time yourself, to actually translate that work, word for word, as you say. Then I am sure the Court will find in your favor, provided you have proof that you translated your document from the same manuscripts that they did, and that you, or people who were working for you, were doing the actual translation. Which means you have some kind of notes and such that you used to do your translating. Translating takes a lot of note taking and paperwork. I assume since you are so certain that you will prevail in court, that you have credentials showing you have mastered the language and the writing and the traditions and lifestyle of these people. Because just translating from a manuscript word for word, would not produce a concise accurate document. I do want to point something interesting out to you about translation of material word for word. it never ever is exactly the same. unless it is some thing simple like Sally ran fast. even that little phrase can be interpreted several ways. For any one interested in actually seeing what copyright law actually covers The blue text below is a quick synopsis, for more indepth detail you can go to this link , where I obtained this information. Which is from the Us Copyright office. http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ01.pdf on 4/12/10 Copyright is a form of protection provided by the laws of the United States (title 17, U. S. Code) to the authors of “original works of authorship,” including literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, and certain other intellectual works. This protection is available to both published and unpublished works. Section 106 of the 1976 Copyright Act generally gives the owner of copyright the exclusive right to do and to authorize others to do the following: • To reproduce the work in copies or phonorecords; • To prepare derivative works based upon the work; • To distribute copies or phonorecords of the work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending; • To perform the work publicly, in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and other audiovisual works; • To display the work publicly, in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work; and • In the case of sound recordings,* to perform the work publicly by means of a digital audio transmission. In addition, certain authors of works of visual art have the rights of attribution and integrity as described in section 106A of the 1976 Copyright Act. For further information, see Circular 40, Copyright Registration for Works of the Visual Arts. It is illegal for anyone to violate any of the rights provided by the copyright law to the owner of copyright. These rights, however, are not unlimited in scope. Sections 107 through 121 of the 1976 Copyright Act establish limitations on these rights. In some cases, these limitations are specified exemptions from copyright liability. One major limitation is the doctrine of “fair use,” which is given a statutory basis in section 107 of the 1976 Copyright Act. In other instances, the limitation takes the form of a “compulsory license” under which certain limited uses of copyrighted works are permitted upon payment of specified royalties and compliance with statutory conditions. For further information about the limitations of any of these rights, consult the copyright law or write to the Copyright Office. For any one who is curious what the first amendment actualy says and what it covers by Law here you go. The text below in green is a brief discripotion and you can go to my link for more information, which I obtained from Justice Learning a web site set up by NPR and the NEw York Times to help teachers educate people about their rights as citizens. From This web site http://www.justicelearning.org/justice_timeline/Amendments.aspx on 4/12/10 First Amendment - The Text Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. On September 25, 1789, Congress transmitted to the states twelve proposed amendments. Two of these, which involved congressional representation and pay, were not adopted. The remaining ten amendments, known as the Bill of Rights, were ratified on December 15, 1791. First Amendment - The Meaning Freedom of Speech and of the Press: The First Amendment allows citizens to express and to be exposed to a wide range of opinions and views. It was intended to ensure a free exchange of ideas even if the ideas are unpopular. Freedom of speech encompasses not only the spoken and written word, but also all kinds of expression (including non-verbal communications, such as sit-ins, art, photographs, films and advertisements). Under its provisions, the media — including television, radio and the Internet — is free to distribute a wide range of news, facts, opinions and pictures. The amendment protects not only the speaker, but also the person who receives the information. The right to read, hear, see and obtain different points of view is a First Amendment right as well. But the right to free speech is not absolute. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that the government sometimes may be allowed to limit speech. For example, the government may limit or ban libel (the communication of false statements about a person that may injure his or her reputation), obscenity, fighting words, and words that present a clear and present danger of inciting violence. The government also may regulate speech by limiting the time, place or manner in which it is made. For example the government may require activists to obtain a permit before holding a large protest rally on a public street. Freedom of Assembly and Right to Petition the Government: The First Amendment also protects the freedom of assembly, which can mean physically gathering with a group of people to picket or protest; or associating with one another in groups for economic, political or religious purposes. The First Amendment also protects the right not to associate, which means that the government cannot force people to join a group they do not wish to join. A related right is the right to petition the government, including everything from signing a petition to filing a lawsuit. Freedom of Religion: The First Amendment's free exercise clause allows a person to hold whatever religious beliefs he or she wants, and to exercise that belief by attending religious services, praying in public or in private, proselytizing or wearing religious clothing, such as yarmulkes or headscarves. Also included in the free exercise clause is the right not to believe in any religion, and the right not to participate in religious activities. Second, the establishment clause prevents the government from creating a church, endorsing religion in general, or favoring one set of religious beliefs over another. As the U.S. Supreme Court decided in 1947 in Everson v. Board of Education of Ewing Township, the establishment clause was intended to erect "a wall of separation between church and state," although the degree to which government should accommodate religion in public life has been debated in numerous Supreme Court decisions since then. Sorry for the length but If we really are to discuss this we need to know what it all really says, not what some one tells us it says. edited to fix some typos

But the lawsuit is not about the exercise of religious freedom. You are just using that argument as a way to distract from the real issue which is Copy right infringment (Plagerism, by any other name is still plagerism) You are selling for profit a book that may or may not have large sections of it copied from another book. You can do your whole song and dance but it is still what is being argued in court. The issue is not whether or not you can practice your religion it is DID YOU STEAL your work from this other book. IT sound like you may have done just that in your own words because they are translating the Bible you can use their work to make a bible and say you did the work, by just changeing a phrase here and there. IT is still stealing. Maybe I am just a layman but the truth is the truth no matter how much you try to bury it in Dung!

Actually James it works like this, if your work was printed after their work and more than a certain percentage of it is Word for word the same with out noting what was copied and what is original, it is plagerized plain and simple. Now in a court of Law, you may be able to dance around the issue all you want but that is how it works in academic circles. I hope you really have done your own work because then you will prevail but if you are a liar and stole their work then you will get nailed the court is not ruling on doctirne in this case but on the percentage of what has been printed word for word in each work. IF you did your work before them then you should have proof of that. Obsfucate away buddy you may need to if you plagerized.

Looked out the window to the flower garden saw a multitude of Grass waist high. I then spent all of yesterday pulling the weeds The flowers look beautiful Some pictures for all of you. My Garden this morning

WAysider I may be laughing all day about that song! Awesome!

WordWolf thank you for that concise post. IT is enlightening when you look at it that way, and I am appalled yet again that I fell into following The Way International. I remember hearing talk about can you sin once you are born again at the PFAL class I took.(this was in response to the whole once you are born again you can not lose your salvation teaching, I don't remember which session it was towards the end) People looking for an excuse to sin. I should have paid more attention and ran the other way as fast as my legs could take me, but foolishly I thought it was just people looking for an excuse, I should have made the connection when our Branch leader(L** Armstr@ng) talked about you being able to sin when you were walking by spirit. Looking backward now I can see it all so clearly and there were definite times when things came up that I questioned back then but being young I always gave the Ministry the benifit of the doubt. People can mis understand teachings. IF I had known at the Time all that Victor P Weirwille was doing and that he was teaching this stuf I certainly would have left immediately. But Weirwille taught one thing to the masses and another thing to his faitful Corps and yet another thing to the top leadership.n I won't even touch on Martindale as he was not in charge while I was there so anything a write about him would be from what I heard here. Weirwill was certainly in it not just for the money but for the access to vulnerable people and like every human predetor he cultivates teh week and young so he can feed his own apetite. Thanks everyone for your input. I apprecuiate it the jokes too. This subject makes my heart ache again because I wasted some of my life and because I brought other people to this cursed ministry that has really nothing to do with trying to live a life by the example of Christ and everything to do with fleecing God's lambs. :(

Many people use David and his seeming blessings by God despite Bathsheba as an example of why even though Weirwille had affairs and raped women why his words should be reviered still. I find this fascinating on a couple of levels but I am not versed very well in the Bible so I am putting it up for an honest discussion on here. It is perhaps a missunderstanding on my part but wasn't David and his life and beliefs and actions in alignment with God Until he took Bathsheba as his concubine and had her husband murdered and then he was out of favor until he repented. (after the death of his son) My understanding of Weirwille is that before he started the Way International he had an affair with one of his parishioners. Then for the entire duration of his Way International ministry he had affairs and raped young girls up until he died or at least 2 years before he died. There is not a single account of him ever having asked for forgivenes or even owning up to his error How then can this man be compared to David? Edited to fix my typos and to add this is not aimed at any one person, but I have seen this brought up by different people in the threads and I wanted to know what everyone else thought.

HI DogLover Sorry I worded that post so badly. I did not mean I did not grow while I was in the Way International I learned many things. In fact if I had not been involved with The Way international I would have an entirely different husband and children. SO for that I am extremely thankful. At the same time what I was trying to convey was that if I or anyone else had gone to the Way and asked for help (food Clothing etc while in dire straights) I would have been turned away and told to renew my mind and to go get help from a local church or the government.( Never mind how much money I had abundantly shared with them.) In fact when a fellow believer was in extreme dire need and my husband and I gave them some money from our abs we were summarily dressed down and told all of our ABS had to go to Headquarters and headquarters would decide who to help and who not to. This girl had already gone to our limb leader and was told TWI would not help her. We were friends with her and felt she needed the help this was not someone who was loafing off she was working hard had hit a few bad spots and needed a few dollars to get her through to a first paycheck. She was not someone who ever asked for help and in fact did not ask us directly but we over heard it. and discussed it with each other and decided to help. For our prayer and consideration to help a fellow believer we were chastised and told how wrong we were. THis was not the first time I had heard that all your ABS was to go to Head quarters and any help you gave to a believer should be above and beyond what you sent to HQ.

the 7.2 one was in an uninhabited part of mexico near the California Border. 7/2 is a storng quake and if it had occured up here in the bay area would have caused major damage!

I believe it wa VP that got the whole ball rolling not only with Doctrine that was built into the class but with the way HE treated those closest to him. HE certainly had his hand in the mix for the Martindales. Butting in dictating their lives and how he treated any one who questioned his teachings even when they brought proof from the bible. Even in the early 80's before Martindale took the reins VP would blast some one.. and expected his "Kids" to stick with the ministry over their spouse. The Way International did not help any one. Their whole intenet was to get our money. None of the money was used to help a believer introuble. Not only that but Weirwille looked down on Churches and Religions who did have programs to help people. Martindale mimicked Weirwille and the Corps mimicked both of them. They may not have called it Mark and Avoid in the early 80's but that is what it was you were told they had a devil spirit and you should avoid them and thier spouse who left with them had a devil spirit too because they left the Ministry to stay with their spouse. People were encouraged to split rather than stay with the person they loved. How dare they leave the One true Ministry.

:P I could sure use it... So I just looked in my raised bed and nothing has sprouted yet :( Maybe it is just still too cold. I need to go plant some more stuff too.

Finally got three beds in the veggie garden prepared for planting. And actually planted one it haas two kinds of lettuce two kinds of radishes some spinach some peas and some kale in it. THe next bed will be beats and cabbage and not sure what else maybe the next planting of lettuce to get a continual supply going this year. And we are right now having more rain... Thank goodness I want this year to be a drought free year but we have a long way to go to get to normal rain levels.

I wandered in by accident. Then curiosity got to me and I decided to go look for my WOW family. of course none of them are here but I did find someone from our twig my year after WOW Then I hung around to find out what really happened to The Way international,and to people I knew. The more I learned the more I needed to stay and learn what really happened to me while I was there. I needed to understand why I was there and how I was manipulated I stuck around to learn what was the truth of what I was taught. To find peace with a decision my Husband and I made to leave and to understand our relationship with each other better. I stuck around to understand how arrogant I was and to heal myself. I stuck around because knowledge really is power. and it brings you understanding and peace and in a way freedom. I stuck around to unshackle my mind from the stuff that was a lie or wrong and to heal my heart becasue even though I was only there a short time my heart still got hurt and I also needed to grieve for the parts of my life I couldn't get back and to make peace with the parts of my life that were better because of my involvment and to try to make some sense of it all. Sometimes you can't really heal until yuou uncover the uglyness and look it square in the face and pick it all apart. edited to add. you can not do this stuff alone you really need other people who were there to help you sort it out.

It was Lot

I used to hate the whole going out to witness. IT was difficult and felt contrived to me. In fact anyone I brought to TWi was a friend (this still makes my heart ache that I brought people to TWI) any way the whole thing though I know some people love to do it, is just not my style.

Ah good point thanks I hadn't thought of that. I was thinking in terms of speed because of the running part and well I never saw Athletes of the Spirit perhaps a good thing. I just remember all the running the Corps did. I got corraled into it as a WOW (Our Family Coordinator was going into the Corps and then when I married My Husband I had to do a couple of Corps runs at the Limb.

Okay I have a couple of questions.. how long after VP died was the Pop Paper read.. was it while Geer was still at head quarters or did he go back to Gartmoore and then come to Hedquarters to drop his little bomb. also this makes Martindales demand for allegiance more understandable and my second question is when people left after the demand for allegiance were they leaving to follow geer or just waking up to the fact that neither leader was who they wanted to follow at all. And three how long after the reading of the POOP Paper before the demand for allegiance form MArtindale. I think some one on this thread mentioned 18 months. Sorry for these but I wasn't there and it is all a bit of a muddle I think Wordwolf somewhere in annother thread posted a little time line thing but I can't find it

Okay Penguin I found it and Ohhh dear... that really does concern me!

Regarding hearing the glass break... I believe and I could be totally wrong about this but I beleive he was refering to breaking the sound barrier. I lived in Colorado when they were flying some of the first sound barrier exercises and there were rules about how high up they had to be because of windows being broken. some Reference! http://archives.cbc.ca/science_technology/aeronautics/clips/1220/

Thanks Skyrider I just find it all fascinating... IT has taken me a while here on GS to sort out what I saw while I was there and what I heard and what I heard from other people and connecting up the dots of all that with what happened after we left. I was having alot of second thoughts about the Ministry by the time my husband and I left in early 83. I was having real issues with the way everyone was just following along with out questioning stuff. And I was also having trouble with the notion that only TWI knew it all .. There was also the rising paranoia about devil spirits and the push against the Gays in our area(Idaho). A lot of this stuff the POOP Paper and Martindales rein of terror are just stunning to me... but when I think back over what I saw and heard and put it into context with this stuff.. it is enlightening. I am so glad we left when we did but I am seeing more and more that even if we had not left when we did it was only a matter of time.

Welll we did all I find it suspicious that only Greer was there for VP to tell all this stuff to... that VP wanted done... that VP would tell Geer he was the only person in the whoole Ministry that was still on the word wHEn clearly from his OWN account of daily life at Gartmoor suggests otherwise... and has anyone ever wondered why things didn't work out with that Corps person who was there..... what did the Corps person see that their stay became an issue. Oh that POOP Paper just brings lots of questions to my mind and I find the whole story of him having to do everything so much baloney and his whole carrying on a lot of self serving BS. Please note I am not saying VP was Holy and getting Rev from God I am saying he wasn't and even with out REV from God I find it difficult to believe that he ever told Geer any of this stuff Geer was putting out. IT lends more to the whole notion that Geer was blackmailing the BOT. Why else would they do this. How long after VP passed did Geer present his POOP Paper to the BOT.