LG

diazbro, Not misdirection but redirection. I am NOT still posting about the topics that gave rise to your questions. You are nagging me with questions that were answered in the threads that gave rise to them, which questions are completely off topic here. All I'm doing is trying to redirect you to a) a thread about Pat's lawsuit or b) a thread about me, should you wish to start one. If you really have honest questions, go ahead and start a private topic if you wish. Otherwise, please let it go.

Good ol' Kit. Ever the optimist. :)-->

Diazbro, On the same thread that you are citing, in THIS POST, you demonstrated that you didn’t understand that the disputed domain name is thewayinternational.com, rather than theway.com. That was your last post to the thread, 13 days after the thread started. The disputed domain name had been discussed in Pat’s opening post and repeatedly in the thread, yet you still hadn’t “sensed” that basic fact. How in the world did you “sense” all these “issues” you keep harping on? I already dealt with these important “issues,” when you raised them previously. Now, please drop them or take them somewhere else.

diazbro, This thread is about TWIM v. TWI. You are carrying on about your impressions of me, apparently based on your erroneous “sense” of the thoughts and attitudes behind my posts to a thread on a different topic, that started two months ago and ended two weeks later. If you wish to discuss the topic of that thread, then I suggest that you post there. If you wish to discuss me, then I suggest that you start a thread about me, where you can analyze me to your heart’s content.

I did think it referred to me, Raf, but I thought it was funny. I'll add a smiley to my post above.

No comment. :)-->

You are the one who keeps talking about windmills. I used the word only once, almost two months ago. There was no implication that anyone’s actions weren’t taken seriously. To the contrary, I think that Pat will find, to his detriment, that the legal system takes his actions quite seriously.

diazbro, I didn’t even hint at anything remotely similar to what you wrote, “that Pat is pulling strings over at TWIM and they, including their legal team, are being led by him.” I clearly said that TWIM started the fight with TWI when it opposed TWI’s trademark applications. I further said that TWIM entered the fight of its own volition. In no way did I imply that it acted under Pat’s influence. The only reason I even mentioned Pat is that I was addressing him, concerning his statement that TWI picked the fight, when facts known to him pretty clearly indicate otherwise. Pat previously said that he was seeking help from organizations with “the way” as part of their name. Pat sought out TWIM. Pat informed TWIM of TWI’s trademark applications. He also provided TWIM with other information. Based on information provided by Pat, TWIM (not Pat and not TWI) decided to engage in a trademark dispute with TWI, by filing oppositions to TWI’s trademark applications. TWI responded by sending a cease and desist letter to TWIM. TWIM responded to that by filing suit. At no point have I indicated otherwise. I have never even hinted, much less implied, that it is a joke or a misuse of the legal system. I think that all of the legal actions related to disputes that have been mentioned here have been proper. That includes all trademark applications, all cease and desist letters, all oppositions to trademark applications, and all lawsuits. I have never claimed that anyone was misusing the legal system or in any way acting improperly, according to accepted legal procedure.If you’re going to complain about what I post, please at least put forth the effort to understand it and get your facts straight.

If it were a question of which group is "more Christian," more charitable, better, nicer, or anything similar, I think most everybody would probably choose TWIM over TWI. But whether a group is genuinely Christian, nominally Christian, non-Christian, anti-Christian, or incarnate devils is not an issue in this matter. I'm not siding with anyone. I just "call 'em as I see 'em." I see TWI as a despicable outfit and TWIM as an apparently sincere, charitable, Christian group but I don't see that as having much to do with the issues of the case.

Compare the words I put in boldface with your response.

Are you serious.Yes, Pat, I am serious. I see you as having sought "brothers" to help you in your fight with TWI. I see TWIM as having joined the fight of its own volition, with no direct provocation from TWI. I see TWIM as having raised trademark issues with TWI when it filed its oppositions. I see TWI as having responded by defending its trademarks in precisely the way it should, according to law and normal legal procedure. (Don't confuse that with Christian procedure.) TWI demands that the group not only cease using their so called trademark, but essentially tells the group to shut down. Change your name, give us your financial records etc. TWI did not have to make any demands beyond cease the "infringement". Oh, TWI picked the fight alright.... TWI instead threw their weight around like a school yard bully, but surprise! The kid they picked on is much stronger and has several brothers who will teach TWI a lesson in the courts. Maybe. I think that there is a reasonable question about whether TWI's claim to THE WAY mark will stand up, though I suspect that it may. I think that TWI's claims to THE WAY INTERNATIONAL marks probably will stand up and that TWIM may very well be forced to change its name. The Way International Ministries has 5 attorneys on their board. Ron the head guy runs a very well known and respected law firm. One of the lawyers is a Harvard grad and is a retired law professor. None of which guarantees anything. TWI has competent attorneys with impressive credentials also. I can think of counter arguments to every point that TWIM raised in its complaint. I'm sure TWI's attorneys can do better. Which case will be more persuasive to the court remains to be seen. So, I will look forward with amusement to the next round of "legal analysis" about the case 5 attorneys put together, and how you think they are wrong..... I live to provide you with amusement, but I may fail you here. TWIM probably has enough sense not to discuss their case on a public forum, so I probably won't have much to say about it. I will, however, be watching with interest, and I may comment.

I hate to seem like the devil’s advocate but here I go again. I don’t see TWI as having picked this fight. I’d say that TWIM did, when it opposed TWI’s trademark applications. TWI may not even have known of TWIM until then. If I had to bet on this right now, I’d bet that TWI prevails. I won’t go into the reasons at this time, if at all, but I will watch this with interest.

http://www.therealpurpose.net

Laleo, “A psychologist's job is to hold his client responsible for her own problems in life. His job is to discover how his client is contributing to her own unhappiness, and search for solutions. Anything less would be a betrayal.” I agree, but oldiesman is not a psychologist, other posters are not his clients, and oldiesman’s intent is not to discover how others contributed to their own unhappiness or to search for solutions. Even if that were his intent, and pursuing that were appropriate in some threads, it would not be appropriate here because that is neither the topic nor the intent of this thread. ”In my opinion, the opening post of this thread is beyond an overstatement. Based on my experience in The Way, it presents a sensationalized view of the relationship that existed between leaders and followers. The photographs of the abuse of prisoners at Abu Graib says nothing to me about my involvement in The Way, dysfunctional though it was. It doesn't describe my experience. I think oldiesman's first post on this thread is absolutely correct in the context of Abu Graib.” The opening post didn’t compare the abuse of prisoners at Abu Ghraib with anyone’s involvement in The Way. It wasn’t really even about abuse, per se. It didn’t suggest a direct comparison between Abu Ghraib and TWI, regarding any specific abuse, severity of abuse, levels of degradation, means of exercising authority, whether the authority was “real” or “imagined”, whether authority was taken forcibly or ceded without force, etc. It didn’t discuss at all people’s ability (or lack thereof) to refuse to cede authority or submit to claimed authority. It didn’t focus on victimhood at all. It focussed on two factors that a psychologist said foster abuse and sought to consider how those factors may have contributed to a climate of abuse in TWI. It further noted that those two factors could help explain how seemingly well intentioned, good-hearted people became abusive and even sadistic. Certainly there have been many accounts of formerly caring TWI leaders becoming harsh, overbearing, and cruel over time. This thread wasn’t about decrying or sensationalizing the abuses of TWI leaders. It wasn’t about excusing victims. It wasn’t about victims at all. It also wasn't about "the why of compliance." It was about factors that may have influenced some people to become abusers. Oldiesman managed to derail it.

It's nice to see such likemindedness, isn't it?

I think Goey gets full credit for the image. I doubt if any of us was the first to express the thought, or even the exact words.

The person who started this thread registered at GS two months ago. The first person to bring up Wierwille, on page 4 of the thread, registered this month. Why do these things get repeated so much? One major reason is because people who haven't previously discussed them (at least not here) keep popping in and bringing them up.

I would LOVE for some posters to READ the forum title and explanation, and to THINK. “About The Way: This forum is for discussion about the Way International and its leadership.” Who started The Way International? Wierwille. Who was the leader of The Way for most of its existence? Wierwille. Who taught the leaders who followed him? Wierwille.Think from other perspectives? What the heck do you think people (except a few) are doing? Many once thought of Wierwille as “THE Man of God” and now don’t think of him as even a godly man. Some thought that any criticism, or even any hint of “thinking evil” of “THE Man of God” was wrong, possibly a sign of being possessed by “devil spirits.” Some were horribly used by Wierwille and blamed themselves for years, because it couldn’t have been “THE Man of God’s” fault. Now they realize that it WAS the man of fraud’s fault. That’s a huge change in perspective. YOU are the one who hasn’t changed perspective. You are still doing the same sorts of things to justify abuse, licentiousness, dishonesty, and hypocrisy (they’re not the same) that TWI did, and apparently still does. Why does Wierwille matter? Because he started the abusive organization, formulated and taught a doctrine that fostered ministerial abuse, centralized authority, and structured the whole organization in such a manner as to remove accountability from the top levels and reduce it in the mid-levels. He taught others, by word and example, not only how to abuse, but that it was their right to do it and their followers’ responsibility to submit to it. Why is it important for people to realize the extent of Wierwille’s culpability, not only in his own actions, but also in the rampant abuse that continued and continues long after his death? Because people who think that Wierwille was a great man of God and Martindale (or whoever) screwed things up are still vulnerable to the same sorts of abuse, as long as the abuser is as slick as Wierwille, rather than as clumsy as Martindale. This is “About The Way.” It’s not “About blaming others in order to protect our precious memories of our hero.” The kitchen could get hotter, Oldiesman. If you can't stand the heat...

No, you’re not a proponent of wound addiction, Oldiesman. You’re a proponent of excusing the people who caused the wounds. You’re a proponent of shifting blame, by repeatedly propounding the notion that many, if not most, of the wounds were self-inflicted. You’re a proponent of the notion that people shouldn’t discuss Wierwille’s predatory ways, that he taught to others, that have been causing new wounds continually for thirty or more years and are still causing fresh wounds to be inflicted on current TWI people today. You’re a proponent of saying that Jesus was a backbiting liar (read Matthew 23). Concerning the ongoing nature of Wierwille’s “child of hell” ministry, reread verse 15. Now, if the only thing people do is to bitch about something that happened 20 years ago and use it as an excuse to not live well now, then they’ve given Wierwille’s wickedness too much power over their lives and failed to take the responsibility for living their own lives now. I haven’t seen anyone do that. I have seen someone (you) repeatedly opening some people’s old wounds and hindering the healing of other people’s fresher wounds. That really is about all you accomplish. You claim to believe the Bible. Sometime, you ought to make an effort to understand the heart of the Bible, particularly of Jesus.

It makes no difference. It doesn’t excuse years and years of preying on people. If God later forgives the men, that's his business. It doesn't change the fact that WHAT they did was wicked, harmed many people, and had consequences that lasted for years, even extending past their lifetimes. In comparison to all eternity, that may or may not mean much, but here in the real world, where real people suffer real-life consequences of their actions, "I'm sorry" doesn't wipe it all away.

I thought about posting some of this on the “How Much Authority…” thread, but it didn’t really seem to fit the topic. I'm not sure how well it fits here, but I’m going to post it anyway. As so many threads do, both threads turned to the topic of “adultery,” though not exclusively. I put “adultery” in quotes because, although adultery is included, it’s the minor aspect. “Ministers” using people to serve their own lusts is the major one. From that other thread: And add to that list...love. You can also add pain, hunger for love, need for comfort, counseling, instruction, and other things, as well.People in great need are vulnerable to being deceived and abused. The greater the need, the greater the vulnerability. Ministers put themselves forth as being competent, ethical, and loving people who are uniquely qualified and willing to help people in need. In different categories, so do medical doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists, and counselors. All of those professions provide unusual opportunities to help people, but also unusual access to vulnerable people and unusual opportunity to get beyond normal walls that most people erect, in order to prey on the vulnerable. Another thing – all of those professions provide opportunities for unscrupulous people to instill in others vulnerabilities they didn’t have when they first sought help. They also provide opportunities for unscrupulous people to set up situations in which they are in control and the people seeking help are less able than normal to either give or deny informed, rational consent. Sometimes, with some people, the unscrupulous “helpers” can set up situations in which it is virtually impossible for their victims to give genuine consent. It is a good thing for former victims to look back and understand how they came to be victimized, and what part they may have played in it, if any. Doing so can facilitate closure and can strengthen them against the possibility of future, similar victimization. It is NOT a good thing for people to jump into every discussion about unscrupulous, manipulative, deceitful, scum-of-the-earth professional abusers, masquerading as “ministers” or “men of God,” and point out the so-called “sin” of their victims. There probably was some of that, in some cases. But even if every woman in the world threw themselves at those scum-balls, they had no excuse. Many, if not most, of the women did (have an excuse) AT THAT TIME, as did many, if not most of the other victims of TWI ministerial abuse. If they were to now fall victim to the same sort of abuse, then they would have a greater degree of culpability. (“Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.”) Even so, that would not remove one tiny bit of the culpability of the sorry bastards that prey on those they purport to help.

Nobody said it was, Eagle, and nobody has objected to it, including TWI.

I almost never even look at threads like these but every time I do, there you are, “pointing out the culpability of others.” In all this time, you haven’t yet acquired a clue to normal ethical standards of “helping” professionals, have you?Do you realize that a whole society of godless unbelievers (like me) hold doctors, psychologists, counselors, teachers, financial advisors, and people of almost every other profession, to a higher ethical standard than you hold ministers to?

There's no reason that it should affect even the sites Pat currently uses, much less anyone else. TWI has not raised objections to "The Path of Christ Ministry," Ex-Wayworld, ExCultworld, or caicusa.org, all of which Pat has or does administer. The issues really are as TWI presents them, whether we agree with their take on them or not.

Well, I won't warn him publicly. Zix, Pat, private topic.